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I think the iMac has to be involved in this conversation and in that case the iMac should perhaps get the m5 too. In a world of Mac mini and Mac Studio shortages the iMac seems to be the poor cousin - always available.

My guess is Apple might skip M5 (like they skipped M2) and go straight to M6. On the other hand, if M6 production is constrained, they might update to M5. There is precedent for either strategy.


To be fair the story about a19 production for iPhone 17 winding down could pave the way for another MacBook Neo if they felt there was revenue there instead of making more m5 chips.

Per reports, Apple has ordered a few million more A18 Pros to continue MacBook Neo production (at a significant premium, which is likely why the price went up $100). But you are correct in noting that the model should eventually be updated in 2027 or 2028 with (binned?) A19 Pros.
 
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The Mini 2026 might be a weird mixed chip generation model (M6, option for M5 Pro) like the current Studio is M4 Max / M3 Ultra.
 
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The Mini 2026 might be a weird mixed chip generation model (M6, option for M5 Pro) like the current Studio is M4 Max / M3 Ultra.
Things are SO SCREWED UP right now, I think you are right. Apple has lost their way. "Ram Shortage" is code for... we already have enough money so we are just gonna slide for awhile. M5? M6? whatever! Who cares? Throw a dart to see what you will get. Step right up!
 
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The Mini 2026 might be a weird mixed chip generation model (M6, option for M5 Pro) like the current Studio is M4 Max / M3 Ultra.

Things are SO SCREWED UP right now, I think you are right. Apple has lost their way. "Ram Shortage" is code for... we already have enough money so we are just gonna slide for awhile. M5? M6? whatever! Who cares? Throw a dart to see what you will get. Step right up!

Apple is skipping M6 Pro and M6 Max because they do not offer much of an improvement over M5 Pro and M5 Max and with Apple now third in line behind AMD and Nvidia for TSMC's first-generation 2nm process (which M6 will be built on), they may not have enough wafers allocated to them to build everything, so they are prioritizing A20 (for the iPhone 18) and base M6 (for the iPad Pro, base MacBook Pro and base Mac mini). So with no M6 Pro, Apple is falling back to the M5 Pro for the mini.

The M7 family will be a major step-up - especially for AI tasks - so that will see base, Pro, Max and Ultra versions. TSMC will be on their successor 2nm process with M7/A21 so yields and wafer supply should be much better.
 
Apple is skipping M6 Pro and M6 Max because they do not offer much of an improvement over M5 Pro and M5 Max and with Apple now third in line behind AMD and Nvidia for TSMC's first-generation 2nm process (which M6 will be built on), they may not have enough wafers allocated to them to build everything, so they are prioritizing A20 (for the iPhone 18) and base M6 (for the iPad Pro, base MacBook Pro and base Mac mini). So with no M6 Pro, Apple is falling back to the M5 Pro for the mini.

The M7 family will be a major step-up - especially for AI tasks - so that will see base, Pro, Max and Ultra versions. TSMC will be on their successor 2nm process with M7/A21 so yields and wafer supply should be much better.
And updated Apple TV is like what, 3 years late? Interesting times. Let's hope they do not get confused and put the M7 Pro in the Apple TV and a nice A19 in my mac mini 🙂
 
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The M7 family will be a major step-up - especially for AI tasks - so that will see base, Pro, Max and Ultra versions. TSMC will be on their successor 2nm process with M7/A21 so yields and wafer supply should be much better.
Good. Makes me think I should skip buying a mac mini this year and wait for the m7 as it will be a major rather than incremental improvement.
 
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And to avoid a class action lawsuit they launch out of date hardware?

Apple TV and HomePod are rarely, if ever, on current generation chips. If anything, the delay may mean they have newer SoCs than originally planned if the original SoCs are no longer being manufactured.
 
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Apple TV and HomePod are rarely, if ever, on current generation chips. If anything, the delay may mean they have newer SoCs than originally planned if the original SoCs are no longer being manufactured.
It’s quite feasible to assume the cpu could be anything from a17 pro to a20. After all, a non pro a20 won’t be expected to show up in the iPhone 18 till perhaps end of q1 2027 so perhaps Apple TV could be using binned ramp ip chips destined for iPhone 18.

Conversely, a19 pro CPUs will be coming off sale after iPhone 17 pro is discontinued but the supply could instead be going into a MacBook Neo.

If MacBook Neo is getting a second generation then perhaps we might see a18 pro being used once that chip becomes free.

And equally the long mooted a17 pro might be coming up once iPad mini is refreshed. But there’s a refreshed basic ipad to consider too although that could skip A17 Pro and get a non pro a18 which could become available as iPhone 16 production might be coming down.

All of this means that Apple might have consolidated their supply chain to keep it relatively simple so once the iPad mini goes out of production we might see everything skipping to A18 (AppleTV, base iPad), with MacBook Neo going A19Pro for the 12Gb RAM) leaving A20 for up date iPhone 18 series.

On a vaguely related note, if we get Mac Neo to sit under the Mac mini in the range would it be all too surprising to see Apple go for a dual booting polycarbonate case with 2 USB-C ports like the Apple TV? Or otherwise reveal that possibility in macOS 28 at WWDC?
 
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It's funny how the Nvidia Shield has a chip that is over 10 years old... and it's still a hell of a media streaming box.

😎
Isn’t software support for that a challenge? BBC iPlayer reportedly not working in a matter of weeks due to security cert or something like that.
 
Isn’t software support for that a challenge? BBC iPlayer reportedly not working in a matter of weeks due to security cert or something like that.

I'm not sure about the BBC player.

I just keep hearing reviewers comparing any new streaming box to the Nvidia Shield. It's still got legs.

So even if the next Apple TV doesn't have the newest A-series chip... it'll still be good. You apparently don't need the latest-and-greatest CPU in a streaming box.

😊
 
So even if the next Apple TV doesn't have the newest A-series chip... it'll still be good. You apparently don't need the latest-and-greatest CPU in a streaming box.
...of course you don't - CPU development has way outstripped any increase in processing power needed for TV streaming - and the heavy lifting is done by the hardware codecs built into the chipset. The 2021 ATV 4k handles anything you're likely to find on a current streaming service. There is zero need for an update just for TV streaming. We're a long way from 8k or 120fps becoming commonplace - and I'm not sure those are ever going to crop up on anything short of a movie buff's dedicated 100"+ home cinema.

If you're going to use the ATV for gaming or to run local AI then that's another matter. Maybe there are new/future streaming standards that need an updated codec (or, more typically, licensing fees). Maybe a new ATV will get faster WiFi to match faster home broadband speeds (but you still can't beat wired Ethernet for speed vs. reliability). Or maybe we'll just have to upgrade if we want to run the latest TVOS...

If I want something with the power of a M4 Mini plugged into my TV I'll plug a M4 Mini into my TV.
 
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I'm not sure about the BBC player.

I just keep hearing reviewers comparing any new streaming box to the Nvidia Shield. It's still got legs.

So even if the next Apple TV doesn't have the newest A-series chip... it'll still be good. You apparently don't need the latest-and-greatest CPU in a streaming box.

😊
I think the only worry people should be concerned about is how many years support a 4th Gen 4k Apple TV will get. As you say the hardware is certainly powerful enough to run a streaming box, gamers may be disappointed but there's no signs of any AAA gaming activity for the Apple TV box.
 
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I just got a refurbed M4 Mini on Apple's site, $150 0ff (512GB). I was surprised to see one there. We needed another one, and didn't want to wait because of all the uncertainty.
 
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I think the only worry people should be concerned about is how many years support a 4th Gen 4k Apple TV will get. As you say the hardware is certainly powerful enough to run a streaming box, gamers may be disappointed but there's no signs of any AAA gaming activity for the Apple TV box.
I guess it will be the typical 5 years from discontinuation date (or Apple run afoul of consumer law in some non-US markets) before Apple stop offering a supported OS - if not the latest one. Even the 2021-2022 2nd generation ATV got tvOS 27. (https://everymac.com/systems/by_capability/maximum-tvos-supported-by-all-apple-tv.html)

The only unknown is if a key streaming service drops support.
 
I guess it will be the typical 5 years from discontinuation date (or Apple run afoul of consumer law in some non-US markets) before Apple stop offering a supported OS - if not the latest one. Even the 2021-2022 2nd generation ATV got tvOS 27. (https://everymac.com/systems/by_capability/maximum-tvos-supported-by-all-apple-tv.html)

The only unknown is if a key streaming service drops support.

Streaming services surely won’t discontinue support as long as a current tvOS is allowed on the hardware which is perfectly capable of streaming shows.

I have the (relatively short lived) second gen 4k Apple TV and as you say they stopped being sold in November 2022, the premise being that it should still get tvOS 28 which arrives in September 2027 - 5 years after it was replaced by the current 3rd gen. In fact by quirk of release date we might even get tvOS 29 due to the November release date.

The issue that Apple faces now if they don’t release a 4th gen 4k by September is similar to the 2014 Mac mini which went on for 4 years before the 2018 model replaced it.

Basically they could be supporting a 2022 model until 2031 by their own rules. The quirk here being I think the 2014 mini got short changed by macOS cutting support earlier than expected by us under the 5 year rule.

I suspect some of the cinephiles here would want a more console like approach from Apple where they stuff the best A series chip into the 4th gen and leave it for 5 years but in pre ram inflationary times that would also mean the price drifts down over time. Now that Sony and Microsoft aren’t doing that then a hardware refresh every couple of years to follow MacBook Neo (while keeping price constant like Apple usually do) would be the next best thing.

Don’t forget that an Apple TV mk4 could be very much effectively a Mac Neo by the back door if next years WWDC introduces allowing booting both macOS and tvOS on the same hardware. Now that the MacBook Neo has blurred the boundaries by using A series CPUs there seems to be little reason not to unless use of an A17 pro in a presumptive 4th gen Apple TV 4K is in part to prevent like for like comparisons being made in hardware.
 
Streaming services surely won’t discontinue support as long as a current tvOS is allowed on the hardware which is perfectly capable of streaming shows.
Probably - but its an unknown. They could decide to rely on new hardware present in a new ATV model.

Basically they could be supporting a 2022 model until 2031 by their own rules. The quirk here being I think the 2014 mini got short changed by macOS cutting support earlier than expected by us under the 5 year rule.
Well, it didn't help that the 2014 Mini was, let's day, not the greatest Mini even when it was new, and 2014 saw Apple dropping the more powerful Mini options. By 2018 it was looking seriously underpowered as a general-purpose Mac.

With the 2022 ATV, the only real issue is that Apple need to keep making A15 chips...

Don’t forget that an Apple TV mk4 could be very much effectively a Mac Neo by the back door if next years WWDC introduces allowing booting both macOS and tvOS on the same hardware.

Apple have to decide what the ATV is for. If its primarily a TV streamer then (a) it doesn't really need an update unless its because of component availability and (b) its already really expensive compared to things like Firesticks. Making it a "Mac Neo" is - at the very least - going to need more storage and RAM - and will likely price it even further out of the streaming market... and if its going to run MacOS then it would make more sense to resurrect Front Row for MacOS than dual boot MacOS with tvOS (which is going to need even more storage).

Its possible that the price bump on the Mac Mini has opened up a slot for an A-series "Mac Neo" in the ~$400 price range - but that's way out of line for a streaming box. If Apple were going to do a Mac Neo then it still leaves space foe a cheaper streaming box (frankly, they could keep the 2022 - I'm not remotely tempted to upgrade).
 
Probably - but its an unknown. They could decide to rely on new hardware present in a new ATV model.
The A17Pro introduces hardware AV1 decode which is useful for certain streaming services such as Youtube, Amazon Prime, and Netflix. It's also the lowest spec chip that supports Apple Intelligence. So there's a couple of reasons there for cutting out the 2nd and 3rd Gen AppleTV 4k models in the future. Again, Apple fans will always push for the biggest and latest bells and whistles but the more interesting things for the Apple TV to cover are various AV options, sound pass throughs, and features that should be on a high spec streaming box but aren't.
Well, it didn't help that the 2014 Mini was, let's day, not the greatest Mini even when it was new, and 2014 saw Apple dropping the more powerful Mini options. By 2018 it was looking seriously underpowered as a general-purpose Mac.

With the 2022 ATV, the only real issue is that Apple need to keep making A15 chips...
Who knows why Apple let the 2014 Mac mini languish for 4 years. The 3rd Gen AppleTV is getting on for 4 years old too at this point so we could also be seeing it get relatively short changed in OS support in the future.

I get the feeling that Intel was telling Apple that they were going to stop special ordering the Haswell CPU that was the basis of the 2014 Mac mini - which could turn into the one of the reasons why Apple had to make a decision on it.

Apple have to decide what the ATV is for. If its primarily a TV streamer then (a) it doesn't really need an update unless its because of component availability and (b) its already really expensive compared to things like Firesticks. Making it a "Mac Neo" is - at the very least - going to need more storage and RAM - and will likely price it even further out of the streaming market... and if its going to run MacOS then it would make more sense to resurrect Front Row for MacOS than dual boot MacOS with tvOS (which is going to need even more storage).

Its possible that the price bump on the Mac Mini has opened up a slot for an A-series "Mac Neo" in the ~$400 price range - but that's way out of line for a streaming box. If Apple were going to do a Mac Neo then it still leaves space foe a cheaper streaming box (frankly, they could keep the 2022 - I'm not remotely tempted to upgrade).
If it was a streaming box then it needed to be cheaper. But adding 80 USD to the 4 year old Apple TV mk3 - already overpriced in a streaming market - is effectively asking for almost 50 percent more for a vastly outdated product that you could have gotten cheaper last month against all advice to be cautious about a 4 year old product. A 249 (top model) Apple TV mk 4 would need to offer more than just a CPU bump to A17 Pro to justify the price.

Resurrecting Front Row would not solve the issue of plenty of older (more powerful) Mac hardware - all of which has M class processors - which would be running out of support. I do like the idea but it's not as elegant as booting directly into tvOS on compatible hardware and be able to run native streaming apps - with Front Row you only have local 'iTunes' libraries which is quite antiquated now. Even if Front Row were to be upgraded to be effectively a tvOS emulator on top of macOS you'd have the issue where the minimum OS underlying a Front Row layer can't be loaded for example for an M1 Mac mini in 2030.

Ironically, if Apple went with the A18 CPU like the MacBook Neo you'd be matching RAM with the MacBook Neo. And if you're being generous and bumping storage up from 128Gb to 256Gb you'd ask for 399 USD for a Mac Neo (256Gb) with the 2 USB-C ports (to remain consistent).

My ideas actually go beyond the Mac mini somewhat but could be something for Mr Ternus to consider:

macOS optimisation for lower RAM
Since we're in an era where - Microsoft recently announced that future Windows 11 patches will work better for users with 8Gb of RAM - this directly benefits users where RAM can't be upgraded - such as the notebooks with soldered RAM - a feature copied from Macs. I'd hope that Apple will announce similar measures for similar reasons with the MacBook Neo in existence alongside various M1-M3 Macs with similar storage levels.

Apple TV mk 4
Apple TV mk4 is likely to get really close to the specs of a Mac Neo - could a range topping 'Pro' version launching alongside the regular mk4 be one way of making the Apple TV a more profitable line?

A17Pro wifi only (no thread radios and 64Gb Storage) and tvOS only - 199 USD
A17Pro Ethernet (with thread radio and 128Gb storage) and tvOS only - 249 USD
A18Pro Ethernet (with thread radio and 256Gb storage) - 399 USD - 'Pro' model can dual boot to macOS

Mac OS software
Announce project to allow tvOS to boot on any ARM Mac - act as a long term solution for older Macs. Rather than expecting games developers to target macOS versions that expire after 5-8 years on Mac hardware this project has longer legs and will support older ARM Apple hardware for longer.
Leads to hiring some of the laid off devs (see recent industry news) to finally work on AAA projects for Apple gaming.
Both might take a year or two to get to fruition.

Mac Nano for enthusiasts - homeOS?
Price rises have created a hole under the Mac mini - specifically in the 399-599 bracket. But while students etc will buy the MacBook Neo I think a Mac Neo desktop device is more likely to be picked up by veteran enthusiasts for various projects including home servers if it allowed internal storage upgrades via SATA or NVME ports. Fusion drives may be dead as of macOS Tahoe but that's one option - as is adding a Thunderbolt port to a desktop Neo so that users could then add their own dock for more IO options although sleep/wake issues could cause disconnects.

Could the rumoured homeOS include local storage management so in effect without being fully fledged macOS it's a replacement for Time Capsule too?
 
I get the feeling that Intel was telling Apple that they were going to stop special ordering the Haswell CPU that was the basis of the 2014 Mac mini - which could turn into the one of the reasons why Apple had to make a decision on it.
Maybe partly, but I think the 2018 mini was both a reaction and preemptive response to the Pro/Enthusiast users that were screaming that Apple was ignoring their needs for a non-AIO desktop. The 2013 MacPro was an insult by that point, not everyone wanted to pay a premium for an iMac Pro, and Apple knew the 2019 MacPro was going to be coming in at $6k starting price. eGPU was still alive as a concept at that point, so a Mac Mini with upgradable ram and an eGPU fit that ~$3,000 expandable desktop workstation sized hole a lot of people had.
Announce project to allow tvOS to boot on any ARM Mac - act as a long term solution for older Macs. Rather than expecting games developers to target macOS versions that expire after 5-8 years on Mac hardware this project has longer legs and will support older ARM Apple hardware for longer.
The answer would be Apple allowing tvOS apps to run on macOS the way that iPadOS apps can... Trivial since the architecture and frameworks are all the same. They just need to do it before support for the M1 generation falls off. Though a lot of tvOS games already have iOS/iPadOS ports so they could already be played on Mac...
Price rises have created a hole under the Mac mini - specifically in the 399-599 bracket. But while students etc will buy the MacBook Neo I think a Mac Neo desktop device is more likely to be picked up by veteran enthusiasts for various projects including home servers if it allowed internal storage upgrades via SATA or NVME ports. Fusion drives may be dead as of macOS Tahoe but that's one option - as is adding a Thunderbolt port to a desktop Neo so that users could then add their own dock for more IO options although sleep/wake issues could cause disconnects.
I don't think it is a different device. A Mac Mini with an A-series chip could easily just slot into the lower end of the line up and bring back the ~$599 price point. SATA or a Fusion drive would not happen for a couple of reasons:

1. One of the reasons Apple Silicon Macs run so well with limited RAM is because Apple used fast storage so the slow down of swapping data in/out of memory is less perceptible to the user. Everything in modern macOS is designed to expect fast storage to the point that even running off a slower NVME drive is noticeable

2. Apple doesn't use a separate storage controller in any of their devices now. The SOC is the controller, which I'm sure lets them do some non-standard things to maximize performance and is also core to their security/privacy stack.
 
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Apple have to decide what the ATV is for. If its primarily a TV streamer then (a) it doesn't really need an update unless its because of component availability and (b) its already really expensive compared to things like Firesticks. Making it a "Mac Neo" is - at the very least - going to need more storage and RAM - and will likely price it even further out of the streaming market... and if its going to run MacOS then it would make more sense to resurrect Front Row for MacOS than dual boot MacOS with tvOS (which is going to need even more storage).
I just hope they focus on maximizing compatibility* and can keep the Apple TV pricing down. I want a new one but not at current prices.

*On my primary TV, I have the original 2017 Apple TV 4K and it sometimes lags. I actually do have the current 2022 Apple TV 4K but I’m using it only on a secondary TV because the 2022 Apple TV 4K has some sort of HDMI compatibility issue with my primary TV setup, causing signal loss which wasn’t fixed by numerous different brand new HDMI cables. My 2017 Apple TV 4K works on that primary TV setup without any such signal loss using the same cables, but as mentioned it sometimes lags.
 
I get the feeling that Intel was telling Apple that they were going to stop special ordering the Haswell CPU that was the basis of the 2014 Mac mini - which could turn into the one of the reasons why Apple had to make a decision on it.
They could have just bumped the 2014 mini to a newer Intel mobile-class chipset. Instead there was a significant shift to making it a bit more "pro", using desktop-class processors (I think people thought that Trunderbolt external GPUs were going to be a thing at the time).

As @sevoneone said - Apple also did a major U turn on desktop Macs in 2017 so who knows what internal shenanigans went on. They may have been planning to drop the Mini and go all-iMac.

A17Pro wifi only (no thread radios and 64Gb Storage) and tvOS only - 199 USD
A17Pro Ethernet (with thread radio and 128Gb storage) and tvOS only - 249 USD
A18Pro Ethernet (with thread radio and 256Gb storage) - 399 USD - 'Pro' model can dual boot to macOS

YMMV but I wouldn't touch the tvOS only ATV at those prices - actually I wouldn't touch the current ATV at its new price. Virtually any modern TV has the basic streaming services (and, often, Airplay) built in and, if not, there are cheaper FireTV and Roku boxes.

Otherwise, I remain to be convinced that there is a market for - effectively - an Apple games console. I suspect that the target market will already have a games console (probably a much more expensive one) which can double as a streamer.

The "computers" App which could play material (particularly Music) from my Mac was an attraction - but with Apple pushing towards the cloud and using the Music app instead that's becoming less important, and there are alternatives like Jellyfin (...which has better clients on other platforms).

...and your last option, effectively a Mac Neo, would be interesting - but a whole other type of purchase.

The answer would be Apple allowing tvOS apps to run on macOS the way that iPadOS apps can... Trivial since the architecture and frameworks are all the same. They just need to do it before support for the M1 generation falls off. Though a lot of tvOS games already have iOS/iPadOS ports so they could already be played on Mac...
For me, the possible attraction of a Mac connected to my TV would be the ability to run MacOS Kodi (or JellyFin/Plex/whatever) alongside the tvOS streaming clients. So I agree that running tvOS Apps under MacOS (plus, as I mentioned earlier, a 10' interface like the old Front Row that could launch both tvOS and MacOS apps).
 
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