the state of apple's professional line

[Chupa Chupa]

And Apple doesn't drop prices, that much we already knew.

?

iPhones, iPods, iMacs, Cinema Displays, Final Cut Pro are all less expensive now in real dollars, adjusted for inflation, and all except for FCP, are lower in price point as well. FCP was introduced at $999. Today it's still $999 but includes an entire suite of production applications, not just a video editor.

Their is no good reason why the low end MP starts at $2400 except to prevent pricing conflict w/ the high end iMac. It seems Apple doesn't want the low end MP to be same price or less expensive than iMac even though it's not the same market. My mother would have no interest in a Mac Pro at any price. She loves her iMac. OTOH I have no interest in an iMac.

 

[momille]

i totally agreee with the autor,
i have a music production setup with euphonix, now since euphonix and apogee only works with apple im stucked in a setup i cant switch to win7.
im basically fcked by apple.
cant switch an been fraud by rotten tech with tomorrows prices....
apple suxxxx these days.

 

[parakiet]

The author needs to take a deep breath. Apple's pro offerings come in cycles, this just happens to be their nadir. The next Mac Pro / FCS upgrade after 2010 will be amazing. It takes more than a year / one upgrade cycle to introduce big changes underneath. The author needs to get an education in how much human resources are required to add new software and hardware features.

I can guarantee you Apple is building a solid foundation for the future, as evidenced by Snow Leopard and their Grand Central architecture. Future apps will take advantage of it, so just be god damn patient, alright?

This article smells of a whiny little idiot.

end 2008 / begin 2209 => wait for the 2009 mac, it's gonna be great!

2009 => wait for the 2010 mac, now that one is going be the one!

2010 => oh just wait for 2011..

 

[VirtualRain]

I agree with you to some extent about the new 6 and 12 core Mac Pros. They cant sell em till they get em. But that doesn't excuse the fact that they could have kept their current Mac Pros much more competitive. One can only imagine how many less Pros they sell now than they did last year. Maybe thats why they tipped their hand early about the August update?

Poor Apple, what could they possibly do? At Intel's mercy. Their hands are tied. Forced to sell last year's computer at today's prices, unfortunately giving them a huge profit-margin. Do you think Apple could afford to offer more on their Mac Pros?

Well, how about drop the price? How about add more than 3GB ram? How about offering more modern graphics cards? How about not charging an arm and a leg for ram upgrades? How about not ripping us off on processor upgrades? How about not charging a fortune for upgraded hard drives? How about giving us a better deal on graphics card upgrades?

.... did I mention drop the price? "Yeah, but never does that!!" some on this site say.... Wow. Great argument!

Not buying it.


To those that thought the article was long-winded, I agree. But please allow me edit it down a tiny bit to get at the thesis:

"Leaving your most competitive performance systems to rot for almost a year and a half is an insult to those that rely on them."

That pretty much says it all.

And I agree with you to some extent... Apple could have bundled more into the package mid-term to keep the value up or lowered the price. However, this particular author's biggest complaint is the lack of bleeding-edge I/O and that really does land at Intel's feet.

 

[LethalWolfe]

And I agree with you to some extent... Apple could have bundled more into the package mid-term to keep the value up or lowered the price. However, this particular author's biggest complaint is the lack of bleeding-edge I/O and that really does land at Intel's feet.

The author complained about the lack of tech and not all of that lands at Intel's feet. Only 3 open PCI slots, no apparent support for Nvidia GPUs, no Blu-ray, FW ports all still on the same bus, no eSATA, etc.,. It is also the venting from mounting frustration, IMO. The latest example of Apple's higher end users getting snubbed, so to speak.

Of course if Apple releases something grand slam next summer then all will be forgiven.


Lethal

 

[peakchua]

i am very dissapointed what apple has done. especially with no 6 core base or 8 core base

it should have been 8 core 5770
12 core 5870 upgrade SAPPHIRE 5870

 

[gotzero]

If real pro users run out of slots, they buy more machines. All of this "professional feature" whining really is distilled down to price. When I run out of card space, another Mac Pro comes in the shop. While this is not an "ideal" solution, it is certainly a fast and easy one. Much more productive than some version of, "boo hoo, I am losing $$$$$$ a day because my Mac Pro only has three available slots".

Considering that Apple has a monopoly on OSX, I think they are pretty responsive to users. Not having Blu-Ray is getting a little suspect, but the other standards identified as missing cannot even be fully utilized yet. What is the author missing by not having USB 3.0?

Not embracing parallel processing in their pro apps is BS, but it is not my understanding that much of the PC software is running circles around Apple's stuff. If it really was a night and day difference, then people would be changing platforms. If not, they are not using their time and money wisely.

 

[Block]

?

iPhones, iPods, iMacs, Cinema Displays, Final Cut Pro are all less expensive now in real dollars, adjusted for inflation, and all except for FCP, are lower in price point as well. FCP was introduced at $999. Today it's still $999 but includes an entire suite of production applications, not just a video editor.

Their is no good reason why the low end MP starts at $2400 except to prevent pricing conflict w/ the high end iMac. It seems Apple doesn't want the low end MP to be same price or less expensive than iMac even though it's not the same market. My mother would have no interest in a Mac Pro at any price. She loves her iMac. OTOH I have no interest in an iMac.

Making the Mac Pro more expensive than the highest-end iMac gives the illusion that the Mac Pro is a step up from the iMac.

 

[LethalWolfe]

If real pro users run out of slots, they buy more machines.

Where I'm at we have about 20 workstations and between the Fibre Channel card to connect to the Xsan and the Blackmagic cards for I/O PCI slots disappear quick and adding a bunch more machines really isn't practical.

Considering that Apple has a monopoly on OSX, I think they are pretty responsive to users. Not having Blu-Ray is getting a little suspect, but the other standards identified as missing cannot even be fully utilized yet. What is the author missing by not having USB 3.0?

I don't know what the author is missing out on but I'd love to Blackmagic's new USB 3 based products in our office.


Lethal

 

[gotzero]

Where I'm at we have about 20 workstations and between the Fibre Channel card to connect to the Xsan and the Blackmagic cards for I/O PCI slots disappear quick and adding a bunch more machines really isn't practical.


I don't know what the author is missing out on but I'd love to Blackmagic's new USB 3 based products in our office.


Lethal

But even in that case, you could just take a couple machines off of the fibre network and get some slots back, right? Don't get me wrong, I would love to have extra slots on the machines too, I just do not see it as a huge deal-breaker, at least in my environment where the machines are all networked by fibre too. On here, there are always people screaming about not having something, but very rarely offering why.

One thing it would be nice to see would be some more creative PCI-E cards. Having single-task connection cards is kind of a waste of space and bandwidth...

I guess I am behind on the times. I did not realize that there was really anything besides HDDs offered with USB 3.0 right now.

 

[LethalWolfe]

But even in that case, you could just take a couple machines off of the fibre network and get some slots back, right?

We all work from the Xsan so a machine not on it is of very limited use (access via ethernet is even being rolled out to basically everyone in our company). Even just something as mundane as having the front and back FW ports on separate buses would help out because we have hardware, like audio control surfaces, that take over the whole FW bus. So to use other FW devices on those machines we either have to buy a FW card or power down, disconnect the control surface then reboot (disconnecting it hot crashes the machine). My station, for example, has a control surface that largely sits unused because I can't afford to have the device taking over the whole FW bus and I'm already out of PCI slots. We work around it but it's pain and one that I don't think should come w/a workstation that has the price and pedigree that the Mac towers do. I know this type of problem isn't an every-day-user type problem but, geez, I see all the 'magic' the iDevices get and just want a little of that wizardry for the Pro products.

I guess I am behind on the times. I did not realize that there was really anything besides HDDs offered with USB 3.0 right now.

The Blackmagic stuff is new. They announced it at NAB.

 

[the editor]

here's a question for you guys making statements that professionals buy MacPro's for its performance and not looks: How come you so called professionals just don't go PC all the way...if performance is that important, a custom build PC for the amount of money you'd pay for a high-end MacPro is going to blow the even most maxed out MacPro into oblivion.

seems to me that the OS is of more importance than performance = Hype. Times when Windows sucked big time are behind us, windows 7 isn't worst than OS X both have their flaws.And yes W7 is stable.

I Just don't get it, almost everybody on here is super disappointed about the current MacPro and the soon to be released update (including me!) yet i'm sure that the most people on here whom were waiting for the update will eventually end up with the MP's they are so disappointed about...now tell me its not a fanboy/hype thing.

Me personaly i decided to invest my money (4000Euro) into a PC. i choose performance over OS, Hype or looks

 

[jamesryanbell]

Me personaly i decided to invest my money (4000Euro) into a PC. i choose performance over OS, Hype or looks

Performance doesn't matter without stability. If you really think you can get that for what you do, then go for it (and I don't say that sarcastically...I'm just being literal). If not, then it's a big waste of money.

 

[VirtualRain]

The author complained about the lack of tech and not all of that lands at Intel's feet. Only 3 open PCI slots, no apparent support for Nvidia GPUs, no Blu-ray, FW ports all still on the same bus, no eSATA, etc.,. It is also the venting from mounting frustration, IMO. The latest example of Apple's higher end users getting snubbed, so to speak.

Of course if Apple releases something grand slam next summer then all will be forgiven.


Lethal

The I/O in the Mac Pro is a simple function of what capabilities Intel provides in their chipset. If Intel provided more SATA ports, more PCIe lanes, USB 3, and FW, you would see all this available on a Mac Pro. People should complain about Intel's meager I/O before blaming Apple. Apple is just working with what Intel provides.

Sure, Apple could outsource mainboard design to a different partner that might integrate added silicon for added I/O ands bleeding edge tech, but that would increase the BOM, cost of production, and the end price for everyone, even if they don't want or need these added ports and slots.

Personally, I'd rather not pay for stuff I don't need and those that need eSATA or whatever they feel is missing can easily add it at their own expense.

 

[gotzero]

here's a question for you guys making statements that professionals buy MacPro's for its performance and not looks: How come you so called professionals just don't go PC all the way...if performance is that important, a custom build PC for the amount of money you'd pay for a high-end MacPro is going to blow the even most maxed out MacPro into oblivion.

The cost difference is rarely as large as you think it would be, and in many cases, the hardware costs are even incidental. Odds are, in those types of places, there are both PCs and Macs around anyway.

Speed of setup is also important. You do not want to the one putting together 100 custom systems, and a lot of people that use workstations are much less interested in the hardware than you might imagine.

 

[TennisandMusic]

Performance doesn't matter without stability. If you really think you can get that for what you do, then go for it (and I don't say that sarcastically...I'm just being literal). If not, then it's a big waste of money.

Ugh. Windows 7 is incredibly stable.

 

[TennisandMusic]

The I/O in the Mac Pro is a simple function of what capabilities Intel provides in their chipset. If Intel provided more SATA ports, more PCIe lanes, USB 3, and FW, you would see all this available on a Mac Pro. People should complain about Intel's meager I/O before blaming Apple. Apple is just working with what Intel provides.

Sure, Apple could outsource mainboard design to a different partner that might integrate added silicon for added I/O ands bleeding edge tech, but that would increase the BOM, cost of production, and the end price for everyone, even if they don't want or need these added ports and slots.

Personally, I'd rather not pay for stuff I don't need and those that need eSATA or whatever they feel is missing can easily add it at their own expense.

Silliness. Go look at a top shelf motherboard from Asus, Gigabyte, etc. They absolutely SMOKE a Mac Pro for features, have better components, and are priced very well. Adding a USB3 chip would be what...10 bucks at most? This isn't worth it to keep the machine relevant for the next 5 years? I see some people saying "what do you need usb 3 for?" Well, you could set up a nice external RAID for one. Who knows what peripherals will be coming out in the next few years too. USB3 stuff is out. Now. It doesn't make ANY sense to release a "pro" machine without it when many consumer products already have it. If it was all Intel's fault, why does every other manufacturer offer this stuff??

I would suggest you go read up on the history of Steve Jobs at Apple and at NeXT. He is not a nice guy, nor is he really all that brilliant. He is a brilliant marketer and speaker, and that's about it. He's not even really technically inclined.

The Mac Pro doesn't have pro features because Steve Jobs doesn't want them there. There probably isn't even a reason why. If you don't know the guys history you just can't understand this, so it would behoove everyone to just stop defending asinine decisions on his part. I don't get it. I'm still an Apple user (might even go be picking up a new iMac soon), but that doesn't change the fact they do some things incredibly poorly, and seem to hate their own customers in a way.

 

[Tali]

It's not as easy as saying: Just switch to windows, it's great. Once you have all the software you need on OSX, you just aren't going to switch. Unless you want to fork out several thousand dollars for new software. And with that you won't get a whole lot.

Yes the Mac Pro has gotten more expensive over the years, but I just can't afford to switch. The new Mac Pro might be $2000 more expensive than an equivalent Windows machine (though Windows workstations are expensive too) but can I spend maybe close to $30000 (or more) in software for windows? Sure can't so that Mac is quite cheap compared to that.


It's a crafted argument, I know. But the point is. For people who have invested in software on OSX, there is no real way out.

The one thing that really bugs me is the unavailability of blue-ray. I don't want to watch movies or save data, but actually outputting to blue-ray would be fantastic. I can't just tell the director: Hey, big Stevie said blue-ray sucks, so check out this totally cool HD stream would you?.
Is it that hard to put in?

I know it's possible to output to blue-ray but it'd just be lovely to do it without any workaround techniques.

 

[reel2reel]

Making the Mac Pro more expensive than the highest-end iMac gives the illusion that the Mac Pro is a step up from the iMac.

Well, it probably isn't a step up at all for most people but for people like myself it's a HUGE step up. There's no way an iMac could handle the work I'm doing day in and day out. It's almost laughable how fast it chokes. But I expect that.

I can't believe how many people keep whining about Mac Pro prices. That's pretty much the last thing I think about. Sure it's an up-front cost, but I make it back pretty quick.

 

[reel2reel]

here's a question for you guys making statements that professionals buy MacPro's for its performance and not looks: How come you so called professionals just don't go PC all the way...if performance is that important, a custom build PC for the amount of money you'd pay for a high-end MacPro is going to blow the even most maxed out MacPro into oblivion.

You can get Final Cut Suite for Windoze?

 

[wonderspark]

I have both PC and Mac systems. I was PC since 1988, and only started with Mac in 1999. I find that using both systems professionally puts me at an advantage... Best of both worlds sort of thing.

I agree with those that think Jobs is a bit of a nut-job, but I'd say money does that to a lot of people. When he was struggling a bit, there was more passion and concern for what people wanted. Now that he's got billions, he seems to have shifted his mindset to trying to create a legacy for himself as the creator of things nobody else thought of. It's one of those "everybody wants to change the world" things, and only those with obscene amounts of money can do it, for the most part. What amazes me is the number of people buying all these semi-useful gadgets in such difficult economic times. I wonder if this isn't some sort of bubble that will burst from underneath Nut-Jobs, sending him back down to Earth with the rest of us peasants.

 

[LethalWolfe]

here's a question for you guys making statements that professionals buy MacPro's for its performance and not looks: How come you so called professionals just don't go PC all the way...if performance is that important, a custom build PC for the amount of money you'd pay for a high-end MacPro is going to blow the even most maxed out MacPro into oblivion.

Performance of the whole machine is measured by much more than the speed of the CPUs. I'd actually say that stability is more important to pros than raw speed. Workflow is very important as well. What hardware and software tools are used can greatly impact how long it takes to get the job done. Also, as another poster said, for a business that has 10's, if not 100's of thousands of dollars invested in an Apple-centric workflow just jumping to Windows at the drop of a hat isn't an option.

The I/O in the Mac Pro is a simple function of what capabilities Intel provides in their chipset. If Intel provided more SATA ports, more PCIe lanes, USB 3, and FW, you would see all this available on a Mac Pro. People should complain about Intel's meager I/O before blaming Apple. Apple is just working with what Intel provides.

I find it very difficult to believe that Apple has absolutely no say about the I/O their machines can have. It's really been Intel that's been responsible for things like limiting the number of PCI slots to 3 in a Mac tower since the G4 days? It was Intel that kept HDMI out of the Mac Mini until recently? Intel that made Apple switch the ExpressCard to an SD card slot on the MBP? Intel that got rid of the FW port on the MB? Intel that switched all the FW400 ports to FW800? Intel that forced Apple to use the Mini DisplayPort?


Lethal

 

[nanofrog]

However, this particular author's biggest complaint is the lack of bleeding-edge I/O and that really does land at Intel's feet.

I agree with the lack of IO for some users, but I disagree about it being on Intel.

The Tick Tock cycle this time around meant that the previous chipset/s would be used, so features like USB 3.0 and SATA 3 require additional semiconductors to be added for those features. Other board makers are doing this, and why those boards are better positioned in those areas (gives the boards additional value). Other features like SAS RAID controllers have also been around for some time in the enterprise market via additional semi's.

So it's actually on Apple for refusing to add in additional semis for the newer features. They're charging a premium price for their MP systems, but won't add in anything (features that require additional parts on the boards) to keep the margins as high as possible. That's usually called greed.

If real pro users run out of slots, they buy more machines. All of this "professional feature" whining really is distilled down to price. When I run out of card space, another Mac Pro comes in the shop. While this is not an "ideal" solution, it is certainly a fast and easy one. Much more productive than some version of, "boo hoo, I am losing $$$$$$ a day because my Mac Pro only has three available slots".

There's a solution that can help out with a lack of slots, called a PCIe Expansion Chassis.

There are limitations, as the additional slots are switched, similar to a Port Mulitplier/SAS Expander, so you can bottleneck the slot the card uses in the system if too many devices are trying to run simultaneously in the chassis. So the user would have to figure out the liklihood of this type of situation. Another limitation is the Chassis Expansion card in the system is basically restricted to Slot 2, and that limits you to a single graphics card within the system itself (it's still possible to run another within the chassis).

 

[the editor]

You can get Final Cut Suite for Windoze?

No, you cant, but there's always alternatives i guess. But i understand your point, when youre used to working with certain software its hard to switch.

me personally i have allot of money invested in fonts and software. Last year i bought the Adobe master collection (MAC) yesterday i contacted Adobe and they were prepared to change my MAC version for a PC version without extra costs. (now thats customer service!) this made me make up my mind and go for a PC, i'm sure it will run just as smooth

Stability is just as important as performance i agree, but its not as if Windows7 is crashing every 5 min. its a huge improvement over vista which was crap i agree. on the other hand ive had my macs crash on me also, so the fairy tales of macs that don't crash are long behind us. Computers tend to crash every now and then thats just life i guess, no system is perfect.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

Making the Mac Pro more expensive than the highest-end iMac gives the illusion that the Mac Pro is a step up from the iMac.

Not really. The iMac is a consumer machine. The MP is a pro machine. A customer considering the top end iMac vs the low end MP understands the tradeoffs. The avg iMac buyer is not going to be enticed by the MP because of the form factor, and vice versa. It's not like a going into a BMW dealer to buy a 328 and getting upsold to the 335. It would be more like going to a dealership to buy a sports car and driving out in a pickup truck.