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The Wait Continues - and is becoming exciting: Are your expectations for RevD rising?
- Thread starter Jobsian
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It's wishful thinking, but I think it is pretty reasonable...
The UM processors would probably be slightly slower than the current Core 2 Duos, but not by much. The difference there is their energy usage is only half of the current Core i3s/i5s.
The Intel HD isn't terrible, and would be cheap for Apple. Also it would save on energy. The ATI Radeon 5450 is faster than the current 9400M and is very light on the energy and heat. Apple's relationship with ATI has also been getting better.
SSD prices have come way way way down. And at those price points the Air won't take many customers away from the MacBook/MacBook Pro.
The UM processors would probably be slightly slower than the current Core 2 Duos, but not by much. The difference there is their energy usage is only half of the current Core i3s/i5s.
The Intel HD isn't terrible, and would be cheap for Apple. Also it would save on energy. The ATI Radeon 5450 is faster than the current 9400M and is very light on the energy and heat. Apple's relationship with ATI has also been getting better.
SSD prices have come way way way down. And at those price points the Air won't take many customers away from the MacBook/MacBook Pro.
Where are you coming up with your Core i5 CPU information? You are definitely stating ultra low voltage, but the current Core i5 ultra low voltage CPUs are around 1 GHz not 2 GHz? From some projected roadmaps I read, the new chip you mentioned is supposed to be around 1.2 GHz and boost to 2 GHz (the current Core i5-520UM is at 1.06 GHz and boosts to 1.86 GHz). Does it really make sense to go from 1.86/1.6 GHz (where MBA CPUs actually perform most of the time) down to 1.06/1.2 GHz that boosts to 1.86/2GHz?
In addition, these are very low-end CPUs with 2 MB of L3 cache. And the graphics are worse than a low voltage CPU because they run at 166 MHz to 500 MHz maximum when overclocked. Any projected idea of the CPU you're mentioning points towards Late Q3 2010? Would Apple really wait that long?
The Core i7-6x0LM are the stated replacement low voltage CPUs for the current SL9x00 C2D CPUs. In addition, the graphics are far more capable in these CPUs running at 266 MHz to 566 MHz. Apple cannot accept graphics that are so inferior in the Core i5 CPUs you mentioned. Also, when looking ahead to the next/future Core i7-6xxUM (ultra low voltage) CPUs we see 500 MHz graphics frequencies which even furthers the potential of ultra low voltage in MBA but as a Core i7 high-end CPU.
Why would Apple go so far backwards for a high-end MBA? Why would Apple go backwards considering the iPad now fits the secondary web device and low-end price point? If there wasn't an iPad coming to fit the demand for netbook like performance, it might make sense for Apple to further lower the price of the MBA and focus on mobility over performance like a Mac. The MBA is useful to me because it offers MB like performance yet with an ultraportable footprint/case. I wouldn't want an MBA that performs at about 60% of the current MBA and goes further back then that when considering Intel GMA IGP especially at these frequencies. A low voltage Intel GMA IGP is pathetic enough, to go further back from there is completely insane... especially when Apple brags about 5X graphics performance from Nvidia and developed OpenCL right into Snow Leopard. These ultra low voltage Core i5 CPUs make even less sense than Core i7 ultra low voltage CPUs. I certainly hope Apple sticks with a low voltage CPU in the MBA, but if it's going to go ultra low voltage, I surely pray it goes with a Core i7 variant as the Core i5 CPUs are simply completely inferior in comparison via clock speed and even more importantly graphics frequency.
How about the possibility of an ATI 5450? Why wouldn't Apple use a hybrid system to provide even greater battery life yet supporting even greater capabilities? A high-end MBA with a 310m and Optimus enabling use of Intel IGP when capable enough and only turning on 310m when necessary for the user to get performance wanted in a nicer computer. Let's assume Apple doesn't use a hybrid system or has designed its own for the use of an ATI card, would Apple really be able to use a 5450 in the MBA? Mac users always want Apple to use a high-end graphics card even in the MBPs and are most often extremely disappointed. The 5450 would be an MBP graphics card for those hoping for a much nicer card (like a 5830 or even 5870). The 330m would be much more realistic on the MBP than what people want too. I see an Nvidia 310m as the likely card for an MBA that gets a dedicated/hybrid card. I don't even know if Apple can account for the TDP required of these cards on top of the power required from an Arrandale CPU, especially low voltage over ultra low voltage. Using a dedicated 5450 over hybrid of using Intel IGP/and a dedicated card gets great battery life as only uses dedicated card when needed. Although, a 5450 might work if Apple turns off the Intel GMA IGP. However, we don't need a 5450 all the time, and it's probably a 60%+ performance improvement over the 9400m (according to a few numbers over at notebook check) - but this would require battery drain of running it all the time. I suppose a 5450 is possible, but definitely not on my preferred low voltage CPUs.
I really don't know what Apple will use in the MBA, but if it isn't stamped Core i7, it's probably going to be a huge loss in performance capabilities over the current Core 2 Duo SL9x00 CPUs in the current v 2,1 MBAs. Also, if it doesn't have an Nvidia or ATI graphics card, it will be a huge performance loss over the current 9400m... and a Core i5 would be even worse for graphics than a Core i7 CPU's GMA IGP.
I still feel that we will all be better off with a Core 2 Duo CPU/Nvidia GPU in the MBA over either ultra low voltage Arrandale and Intel GMA IGP which would be a huge loss in our graphics capabilities. In the end, I hope you're wrong not for the sake of me being right, but for the hopes of an improved MBA that moves forward in terms of performance capabilities. If the iPad was another year away, it would make sense for Apple to lower the price of the MBA to further capitalize on portability. Since we have an iPad for web browsing type ultraportability, the MBA lives for performance and ultraportability being tied in terms of user requirements and expectations.
The thing is Apple and Intel have always had a very close relationship and the current MacBook Air processors were customized specifically for the Air... this time around they don't have that relationship and none of the current processors fit the bill.
I can see where you are coming from in regards to the processors though. I can see it going either way - decreasing the performance in favor of battery life and lowering the prices, or having the price stay the same but throwing in a i7/high end i5 and getting more heat/less battery but better performance.
The ATI 5xxx graphics smoke the floor with any nVidia equivalents, and from what I know, they use less energy. The only thing nVidia has going for it is the switchable stuff, but I think most consumers would rather have a better graphics card on all the time with the energy/output inbetween that of an Intel HD graphics and nVidia 310M. I don't want to speak for all consumers though so correct me if I'm wrong.
I can see where you are coming from in regards to the processors though. I can see it going either way - decreasing the performance in favor of battery life and lowering the prices, or having the price stay the same but throwing in a i7/high end i5 and getting more heat/less battery but better performance.
The ATI 5xxx graphics smoke the floor with any nVidia equivalents, and from what I know, they use less energy. The only thing nVidia has going for it is the switchable stuff, but I think most consumers would rather have a better graphics card on all the time with the energy/output inbetween that of an Intel HD graphics and nVidia 310M. I don't want to speak for all consumers though so correct me if I'm wrong.
If Apple's refreshed MBA turns out to have 4Gb of hardwired RAM instead of the current MBA's 2Gb, I don't know whether I would buy one or not. I have to be able to run Windows 7 in a virtual machine on any Mac I buy but I don't know whether even 4Gb of RAM in an MBA would let me do so comfortably. I have 6Gb of RAM in my 2.4Ghz MBP and I wouldn't want to have to get by on less.
Sounds like you'd be better served by a MacBook Pro. In my case, I would rather leave Windows 7 running on another computer (specifically, virtualized on my Mac Pro) and connect via Windows Remote Desktop on the laptop.
Actually, it was the original MBA that had its own "custom" Intel processor. Many other notebooks use SL9x00 CPUs, including Dell's own ultraportable competitor to the MBA, Adamo.
I wouldn't put it past Apple to get a custom CPU, maybe even less the IGP 45nm DIE. Don't count on the relationship to be down, because I believe Nvidia lost its license due to the appearance of Apple selecting it over Intel's own chipsets. Intel wants to be inside of the Mac computers for the money and the branding. Apple buying Nvidia over Intel was the start of the end of Nvidia's license. Intel will definitely bend over backwards to get into every premium or pro Mac, and I don't think it's beyond removing a 45 nm GMA DIE to get it.
Let me clarify, the i5 is NOT a high-end CPU in any way, shape or form. It's nearly $100 less than the current C2D TRUELY high-end SL9600 CPU. If Apple wants to decrease performance, it will obviously use the Core i7-6x0UM an ultra low voltage CPU. Apple would much prefer 4 MB L3 cache and a far superior HD graphics experience. The i5 is where people think a mid-grade computer should be, but Apple has never gone cheap on the MBA... it's done miniaturized but not cheap. In fact, the Core i7-6x0LM CPUs that Intel scheduled to replace the current MBA's C2D SL9x00 Penryn CPUs are about $15 cheaper than the current SL9x00s.
The simple truth is the Core i7 makes far more sense than the Core i5 in ultra low voltage form. Go look, and both CPUs are already available for Apple in Core i7 CPUs. The Core i5 you're hopeful for doesn't even match the current Core i7 CPUs that are ultra low voltage and available right now. This is not to say Apple will not stick with the LOW VOLTAGE CPUs where it's currently positioned in the MBA.
The reason the MBA is pure perfection is the 6 MB L2 cache, and clock speed performance while using low voltage. It gives the MBA a truly better experience than one would expect and similar to the MB. It does that by taking advantage of the cache because it's not as fast as the 35W TDP MB CPUs but uses less power able to cool it down in such a thin case with limited cooling space. It also uses an Nvidia GPU and an SSD to make the MBA literally faster than a MB for those willing to pay for it.
Both Intel and Apple will want the MBA branded as a Core i7 CPU. Most people don't even know the differences and think Core i7 means quad core or something more powerful. The Core i7 brand offers the 640LM and 620LM which are the Intel branded replacements for the current MBA's low voltage SL9x00 series. We have zero reason to believe Apple wouldn't continue on with a low voltage CPU. If Apple went ultra low voltage, it would possibly be to make a dedicated graphics card to work inside of it. However, with hybrid tech that's even less important as the dedicated GPU will only be used as needed.
If Apple wants to go ultra low voltage, the Core i7-640UM and i7-620UM are already available and both offer superior performance, and more importantly more L3 Cache and double the performance from the GPU built in. If Apple doesn't use a secondary discrete card, it would be absolutely STUPID for it to use an i5 CPU. The i5 is going to have 60% of the standard graphics performance of the i7, half the L3 cache of the i7, and ALL AT THE SAME ULTRA LOW VOLTAGE 18W. Why would Apple be that stupid? It just doesn't add up. I believe you're not clarifying where Apple already is with the MBA and where it's definitely going with the MBA.
Again, if Apple didn't have the iPad positioned as the lower cost secondary entertainment/web netbook replacement device, maybe the MBA would take the position of further removing its capabilities to get it into a cheaper price point. Why should Apple lower the price point from where it's already at? Why would it want to sell MBAs for $1300? Why wouldn't it want to keep the prices up and do it by taking advantage of both the branding and performance gains of the Core i7 over the Core i5? We haven't even touched the fact that there are no "LOW VOLTAGE" Core i5 CPUs available... where and why would Apple move away from Low Voltage? How could it do it with a Core i5? It couldn't not now... not until late this year, and not without a massive performance loss in GPU capabilities of the built-in graphics.
I will gladly put $100 on the line that is on a Core i7-6x0LM or i7-6x0UM over any of your Core i5 CPUs, current or future. Apple simply cannot go backwards with the MBA, and that's exactly where it would be going with a Core i5 ultra low voltage... far backwards from the current CPUs. We would all be better off buying a C2D MBA... and Apple would be better off keeping a C2D in the MBA and simply adding 4 GB of RAM to it. I will be done with the MBA if I have to have that worthless Core i5 ultra low voltage CPU in my MBA... on I will be to better things whether it be an "Airized" MBP or something else (like the Vaio Z where I could be very easily - I just need Apple to prove it the wrong choice, but another Tuesday without an update).
I agree the ATI 5XXX will smoke the Nvidia 310m, but this is Apple we're talking about. MBP buyers will be lucky to get the ATI 5450; they all want the 5870 and are saying they will settle for the 5830, but I will laugh my ass off when they get the Nvidia 330 GT or ATI 5450.
In all truth, I don't see Apple using ATI even though they offer faster graphics solutions. Apple is more into energy savings and yet offering the best overall value for complete system performance... The MBA will be lucky to get a 310m. If it were to get a 330 GT, it would probably have to use the ultra low voltage CPUs... but even then I don't know.
With Optimus, Apple gets exactly what it wants. A fair card that can perform in the low to low-mid range areas depending on dedicated card used in which Mac, and yet the energy savings the majority of the time when using the Intel IGP. I guess it's completely possible that ATI allows Apple to introduce a new tech from ATI in the new Mac notebooks. I just don't see Apple using any high end graphics - not even as high end as the 5450. And truthfully, most of us would be much better off with C2D and Nvidia chipsets anyways.
There are different groups getting into gaming on Macs, and that's why Apple should develop another series of notebooks focusing on high-end graphics cards and large displays, and lose the other features focused on other Mac notebooks not necessary to them. There is a whole range of people not being catered to by Apple, and I see it as a missed opportunity whether it's a headless Mac, a netbook, a gaming desktop, or a gaming notebook - they're all missed opportunities that Apple's is not capitalizing on. It makes me wonder if Apple has something up its sleeve and working with Steam to introduce computers more capable... no clues here and not truly speculating, just a thought that probably means nothing.
If I had to bet on the next MBA right now... Core i7-620LM, Intel IGP only, 2 GB RAM, 128 GB SSD for $1599. Core i7-640LM, Nvidia 310m 256 MB dedicated w/Optimus, 4 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, a new display tech - $1999. Both get better speakers, glass trackpads, and USB 3.0. If we get better tech than these, I can see higher prices. I also see BTO options coming back to the MBA. Hopefully a $500 upgrade to 8 GB RAM. Maybe a Core i7 LM over a UM for more money, or a dedicated graphics card versus only Intel's GMA IGP. Maybe other things too, like the HD/IPS display I am expecting.
What I don't fear because it isn't happening... Core i5-xxxUM, 1.06/1.2 GHz, Intel or other graphics, and any other add you want.
OMG, what a waste of my time... nobody will even read this lengthy post!
I just hope for a better cooling solution so that I could use an AIR in the bed, just like I do with my mb, without any underlay or spacer or whatever...
That and more than 2GB of RAM and I'd be set.
I considered a 13 inch MBP as well as the MBA, when I first decided that I wanted a small laptop. I eliminated the current 13 inch MBP from my consideration because if weighs 4.5 pounds.
I used Windows Remote Desktop fairly frequently at one time but thought that it was too slow and unstable for regular use. That was over a wireless network but a wireless network is what I have, so wireless desktop is not for me.
I still hold out hope that the refreshed MBA will have enough RAM to allow me to comfortably run Windows in a virtual machine. Only time will tell and, based on current indications, it might be a long time. Anyway, an MBA is still my first choice as long as my requirements for it are fulfilled.
Yeah, what a waste of time. I did not read that steaming pile.
Seriously, how can you spend so much time talking about nothing?
I read the entire post then this exasperated quote literally had me in stitches lmao!! As always, your insights are much appreciated Scotty
I agree the masses of predictions of Core i5s and i3s are a little peculiar, but I guess it's just a presumption people make that the lower the number the less TDP and most suited to the MBA. I'll bet my left femur that we'll see Core i7 if there is to be an MBA/D. And I just can't fathom the possibility of IGP-only, I seriously doubt it (and hope!). With every week that passes, USB 3.0 becomes more realistic (I seriously hope this is included).
Another week goes by and still no update = more excited
I'm actively hoping there's no MBA now - surely by the time WWDC come, we'll get most of the specs we want! Roll on June I say
I read the entire post then this exasperated quote literally had me in stitches lmao!! As always, your insights are much appreciated Scotty
I agree the masses of predictions of Core i5s and i3s are a little peculiar, but I guess it's just a presumption people make that the lower the number the less TDP and most suited to the MBA. I'll bet my left femur that we'll see Core i7 if there is to be an MBA/D. And I just can't fathom the possibility of IGP-only, I seriously doubt it (and hope!). With every week that passes, USB 3.0 becomes more realistic (I seriously hope this is included).
Another week goes by and still no update = more excited
Thanks a lot for all who support my addiction... I was also not thinking we were getting an update this week but still frustrated when it didn't happen and made another note of how many months have gone by (we're two days away from ten months since the last ever so slight CPU bump to the MBA). I originally read a rumor that WWDC is going to be late June this year. I don't know if it's correct, but it might be which also might change the focus of WWDC to just the new iPhone, and iPad/iPhone development.
Also we have several rumors and quotes from Jobs saying the new Macs will take the Mac to the "next level." Given all of the rumors for MBPs and other misc. Mac rumors, I would bet we get an Apple media event in April or early May. This would allow Apple to introduce a completely new line of Macs using Arrandale CPUs, alternative graphics systems, USB 3.0 across its Mac line, and probably iLife. I see a new MBP, MBA, Mac mini, MB, Mac Pro, and maybe even a bump to the low-end iMac. All will feature the new CPUs and graphics. The big question is what does Apple do with the graphics. For me, the graphics are the biggest concern. I also think we will get two new variants to the Apple Cinema Displays with both an LED version of 27" and a 32" too.
I still say that the MBA is going to get a new display of some sort with either this or the next update. I don't know if it will be IPS/HD, 3D, OLED or what, but I think this is the next logical place to focus the experience of the Mac on and the MBA should be the starting point. Been saying it since last Fall, and I am still saying it. I just don't know when...
I, too, suspect that Apple's long delay in refreshing its laptops has been caused by problems with the graphics. If so, that's very similar to the CPU problem that led Apple to stick with its Powerbook G4 line for long. That happened because Apple thought it could modify the G5 CPU to work in laptops. They were wrong. The G5 always ran too hot and required too much power for laptop use. Once Apple's new lineup is released, I hope we find out what caused Apple's long delay in the first place. Man alive, those guys are more secretive than the Kremlin!
Hey gwsat u live in OKC to, cool! Do you plan on visiting the Apple store at the mall on Saturday?
Lately I have been going between the air and the 13 MBP but I guess I will have to see what the updates bring...
I went out of town last week, and was sitting at a bar in the airport, and started talking to this lady, and she found out I knew about computers and such and asked me should I buy a mac or a pc? Well I have never owned a Mac but I told her if you can wait get a Mac. Then this dude chimed in and said I work for apple and you definitely should get a Mac. Well, of course I asked him if he knew about an update, and he had no idea, then we talked about the air and pro a little. He mentioned that he thought the air would probably get an i3 which of course would be absurd when it comes to power consumption.
I know these guys dont know anymore than we do, but as I was leaving to catch my flight, he said don't worry updates are coming soon. This was last Tuesday, but hey who knows maybe we can have some glimmer of hope about a refresh this month.
I will wait for apple to update even though the z is attractive, because Macs do intrigue me, and I love the idea of running 2 OSes.
I will stay far, far away from the Apple Store this Saturday. Penn Square Mall is always a zoo on Saturdays and the Apple Store is even wilder. There is no telling what it will be like in there this Saturday but I think it won't be pretty.
I've been shopping for a 13 inch laptop for about a month but have concluded that nothing in Apple's current laptop lineup will work for me, for reasons I have previously posted here. If Apple would refresh the MBA so that it had slots for memory modules I would be the first in line to buy one. Unfortunately, there is no telling when Apple will release its updated laptops. I am beginning to wonder if it will happen before summer.
I will stay far, far away from the Apple Store this Saturday. Penn Square Mall is always a zoo on Saturdays and the Apple Store is even wilder. There is no telling what it will be like in there this Saturday but I think it won't be pretty.
I am beginning to wonder if it will happen before summer.
Yes Penn Square mall is a mess, and I can just imagine the fiasco it will be to get into the Apple store. I am teetering between getting an ipad, but it was an easy decision at this point as I didnt want to deal with the crowd there. Maybe in a month?
Yea I need one for law school, but unless the MBA brings some RAM and a decent GPU to the table, I will have to pass on the pricetag at this point.
I hope it isnt until summer, I wanted to get some time to get accustomed to osx before school starts as well as load Win7 etc.
Damn u Apple!
Guys, would like your inputs in this thread on the MBP forum: "New Macs for 2010 are going to take Apple to the next level"-MBA/13"MBP Mega-Hybrid?
With the 13" MBP and MBA rumored NOT to be listed among the imminent Macbook updates, I'm guessing Scotts your prediction last year might become true!
With the 13" MBP and MBA rumored NOT to be listed among the imminent Macbook updates, I'm guessing Scotts your prediction last year might become true!