Sidebar Sidebar
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Theif!

Well, having read through all 3 pages, I'm amazed that no one seems to realize that:

"WiFi" 802.11b & 802.11g is unregulated spectrum.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that it is not illegal to tap into someone's broadcast over this unregulated spectrum. It is also perfectly legal to tap-into, and even tape, someone's phone conversations over unregulated spectrum (cordless phones broadcast over unregulated spectrum, cell phones broadcast over regulated spectrum... just an FYI).

Not all ISP's prohibit sharing bandwidth with non-subscribers. Some do, some don't. Thus, if an ISP prohibits non-subscribers from receiving service the subscriber who is broadcasting it is the one held legally liable, not the recipient. That is why the police in Manhattan (at the request of TimeWarner) are nailing not the people picking-up free TimeWarner internet service, but rather the subscribers who are broadcasting it on open wireless networks!

Wireless manufacturers set up equipment so that by default it is unprotected.

Not only is it not illegal to pick-up internet service for free over WiFi, it also isn't a similar situation to walking into someone's home and watching the TV. Remember... the internet is being broadcast by a subscriber INTO someone else's home!

It is very difficult for someone to determine if the internet service that is being broadcast into his home by someone else is from a subscription that permits (or doesn't permit) the subscriber to broadcast it to others. In densely populated places such as Boston, where I live, one easily receives many wireless networks while inside one's home. I receive strong signals from 8 unsecured networks. To whom do they belong? What kind of User Agreement do they have with their ISP? Who knows!

This all doesn't mean that you can't think that it's wrong for someone to surf the internet for free on your own wireless network, but it does mean that it's not illegal to pick-up the service and use if for free. It's even legal to access the files on your computer (as long as they aren't copyrighted material).

So, if you set up a wireless network, familiarize yourself with your ISP's User Agreement to see if you are permitted to broadcast your service to non-subscribers. And, if you don't want anyone using your service then SECURE your own network and/or tweak the broadcast signal so that you're not beaming your personal information into someone else's home!

You may not like what the kid is doing, but he's doing nothing illegal. I think the amusing part of this thread is that no one realizes it's not the kid who's breaking the law, it's the adult! (assuming his user agreement forbids open broadcast to non-subscribers)
 
sigh...

Originally posted by Makosuke
The moral and legal issues surrounding unprotected wireless networks are essentially irresolveable; there are valid arguments in both directions, and there's no way to reach an agreement since different points are more important for different people.
Click to expand...

This whole argument seems to be a micro version of stealing satalite signal. But the question is just because something falls on your lap/property do you have the moral right to use it?

Originally posted by Makosuke
That said, I'm assuming that carbonmotion is explaining his particular situation accurately, in which case it'd be hard to make a strong argument that the kid isn't doing something wrong, if not in principle at least in the spirit of what he's doing. <snip>
Point is, the kid's using the connection in bad faith; he knows whose it is, he knows that it isn't intended to be open, and he's using it enough to cause the owner an inconvienence.
Click to expand...

Agreed! The bottom line is that both this unnamed kid and carbonmotion are at falut. The kid should not have abused this lack of security, and carbonmotion should have put some restrictions on his wireless connection. It's like stealing a car when someone leaves it running while hopping into a convenience store. Sure the thief shouldn't have stole it, but the driver was certainly making it easier to do so.


I don't reccomend pranking, viruses or any such tatic. It's childish, and ... well just plain stupid. A mature way would be to go over to your neighbours house and (while being civil) explain the situation to both the parents and the kid at the same time. Leave the punishment for the parents to decide and close up your router and leave the matter in the past.

Sure the mature way isn't as fun, and doesn't give your ego the inflated sense of power and the rush that follows; but you said you wanted to teach the kid what's morally right, and leading by example is the best (but toughest) way to do it.
 
You could go over there and ask him to pay a small amount a month to use your internet. That way you benefit and unless he is hosting a website or something it probably won't affect your internet speed.

As for getting back at him, remember a wise man once said, "before setting off on revenge, first dig two graves." He could be a budding hacker just waiting to mess with you back.
 
Re: Share The Love

Originally posted by mstecker
Why do you care? Let him surf your connection.

Ease up on the poor guy.

I keep my 2 airport hubs open, and I see 3-4 different people who use them on a daily basis when they're on the neighborhood. As far as I'm concerned, that's being a good neighbor.

M.
Click to expand...

Yeah, until a not-so good neighbor uses it for something illegal and the FBI busts down your door. Now how are you going to prove it wasn't you... Technically you should be able to but good luck.

If it was a perfect world I would agree with you, but for me it's not worth it.
 
No password = Unencrypted network traffic

Without a password on your wireless network, your network traffic is unencrypted, allowing just about anybody to listen in on almost every character you send or receive over the Internet.

Also (speaking of NAMBLA), without securing your network, some pedophile doing drive-bys with a wireless sniffer could sit in front of your house and download 50 megs worth of kiddie porn, and the Feds will come and track *you* down because it's your DSL line (and your logged IP, and your base station's MAC address, etc...)

So, lock down your network and leave it at that. A password is hardly an "extreme" security measure.
 
Originally posted by parrothead
He could be a budding hacker just waiting to mess with you back.
Click to expand...

I doubt a "hacker", budding or not, is going to know enough to mess with a Mac running a Unix-based system... he's most likely on a Windoze box. At the most he can wreak havoc on your wireless connection, to which you turn on WEP, MAC addressing, change the router's default IP address, change the SSID, turn off broadcasting, and all the other stumbling blocks available. Then, if he actually manages to crack all of that, just take a couple minutes to change it to different settings and he'll have to start all over again. He'll probably give up after awhile.
 
Seems like a lot of people not only want to throw the first stone, but want a few more stones, as well! (I guess no one here has ever done something online they later felt was not so great -- like downloaded an mp3, looked at a web site you wouldn't later show your girlfriend, or spent time on a Mac forum while at work? ) ;)

I may have skipped over something, but is it possible the kid doesn't even know whose signal he has tapped into? Maybe he thinks he has tapped into the neighbor down the street -- you know, the one no one likes.

I say, go configure your router and be done with it. (after sending the FBI note, of course. Actually, send one from the RIAA!)
 
carbonmotion

I tell you what i'd do... I would find out my IP address for the router, and then geton another Mac with OS X not connected to the router. I would then go into the Network Utility in the Utilities folder. Go to the Ping section and Ping the hell out of him. I would enter in the IP, and send an unlimited number of pings to him. I think this would work, try it and teach him a lesson.

Good Luck.
 
Re: carbonmotion

Originally posted by Sweetfeld28
I tell you what i'd do... I would find out my IP address for the router, and then geton another Mac with OS X not connected to the router. I would then go into the Network Utility in the Utilities folder. Go to the Ping section and Ping the hell out of him. I would enter in the IP, and send an unlimited number of pings to him. I think this would work, try it and teach him a lesson.

Good Luck.
Click to expand...

Just a straight ping isn't going to hurt him. Try enabling root on your Mac, then do 'ping -f <ip>'. That will ping flood him, but of course it will also flood the network.

Do you have another wireless AP around? If so, turn it on with no WEP or filters, and nothing else plugged into it. Now configure your router with WEP, disabled SSID broadcasting, and MAC filters, and you can get out while he is connected to a wireless network that's not connected to anything else. Let him work on that awhile.
 
Re: Re: carbonmotion

Oh, and don't forget to put your working router on a different SSID.
 
you are basically on a lan with the guy, right? in that case, it would be very easy to access his computer, and do whatever you wanted to it.

If not with the terminal, then luanch vpc, and hack the pc with your vpc.
 
My thoughts

someone amongst a few others mentioned
The bottom line is that both this unnamed kid and carbonmotion are at falut. The kid should not have abused this lack of security, and carbonmotion should have put some restrictions on his wireless connection.
Click to expand...
.

Now personally I'm partial to the fact that carbonmotion left his connection open is at some fault. BUt I see it as yes this kid is stealing his connection to a point.

How many of you that stated its NOT STEALING have a car? And of those How many of you on a winter morning go out start your car (manually or used to without remote car starters), leave the doors open to warm up the car and defrost your windows (LOL) for a few minutes before leaving your house to drive off?? Now if I jump into your car and drive off.......am I stealing? Even if you don't know I did and I get pulled over from the cops and have a license but no insurance; I'm sure the cops are gonna suspect that the plates registered is not in my surname/first name and think I stole it!! Furthermore, lets say I did take it and you don't know it yet I kidnap some kid (child) from the mall and that kids obduction is reported on the new & to police and their after me, yet no discription of me. I park the car back into your driveway open your back door, put the kid in their (who's tapped and tied up) and take off un-noticed!!

Now imagine this pathetic scenario as me surfing your wireless connection without your permission, and the kid obduction is instead kiddie-porn!! Now would you call that stealing your connection?? And how would you feel when the cops come knocking on your door ready to bust you, and fully blam you for your actions/lack of action of closing your connection??!!!!

You'd be pissed off and would learn not to pw protect your wireless connection!! However, you don't want to spend 3 months in Jail before the police investigation realizes that the content on your computer wasn't put their directly from your system but from a ciphon!

Top that off with your computer will never get back to you and your insurance will NOT cover it!!!?!!

I say teach the kid a lesson B4 he teaches you one! Then for god 's sake pw protect your Airport connection please and prevent yourself from some serious fustration, identity theft, humiliation, and pain!!!!

PS. I have no idea where that scenario came from but just made it up for all to see from a different angle.

Cheers
 
Well, the car scenario above isn't a "different angle". It's a completely different legal situation.

Legally, the person broadcasting the network wirelessly is held accountable for adhering to the ISP User Agreement, and is also accountable for any illegal activities (child pornography, etc) conducted on the wireless network. It is not illegal to use someone else's WiFi network.

People may have their own opinions about whether or not it's ethical to tap-into someone else's WiFi network. It's quite apparent, however, that most posters in this thread think that their own "ethical" standards give them the right to commit an illegal act (damaging someone's computer).

I only switched to Mac last Fall, but it's becoming quite obvious that Mac fans, despite their disdain of Bill Gates' business tactics, make him look like Mother Theresa.
 
I agree with you on that. Stealing is stealing, no matter what it is. Also, I've seen numerous posts here where people think it is OK for them to steal other people's connections. What if the owner of the WiFi network decided to crash their computer? I doubt they would be happy and whine about it later blaming it on the owner for not locking it down. I think people should start taking responsibility for their own actions, and get things corrected the proper way, not by sending out a virus or hacking his PC, which is illegal. Hacking a PC, even though it is on your own network, is illegal.

Besides, this dude is a college student, and they all share the same line through their university. Who cares if he's on the wireless at this point? He'd just be slowing himself down anyway.
 
Originally posted by pdrayton
... It is also perfectly legal to tap-into, and even tape, someone's phone conversations over unregulated spectrum (cordless phones broadcast over unregulated spectrum, cell phones broadcast over regulated spectrum... just an FYI)....
Click to expand...

Don't think so... You can listen to them over the scanner, but taping them is another matter. Even on your own phone, you have to get both parties' permission to tape the conversation, just as the way insurance companies do when/if they call you when you are involved in an accident. Taping anyone's telephone conversations is against the law in the US.
 
Originally posted by tomf87
Don't think so... You can listen to them over the scanner, but taping them is another matter. Even on your own phone, you have to get both parties' permission to tape the conversation, just as the way insurance companies do when/if they call you when you are involved in an accident. Taping anyone's telephone conversations is against the law in the US.
Click to expand...
Well, I'm actually right as long as taping, etc. occurs on a wireless 2.4 to 2.5GHz frequency. The US Supreme Court has already settled that.

As for taping on landlines or regulated cellphone frequencies, then you are correct.

This thread, however, is about WiFi (2.4 - 2.5GHz spectrum) broadcasts. So, landline and cell-phone comparisons don't apply.

Few people realize that law-enforcement agencies frequently tap into cordless phone conversations and computer files that are being broadcast on 2.4GHz spectrum without having to get court permission. Rather than get a court's permission to seize a computer to do a search of files to gain evidence of criminal activities, law-enforcement agencies often sit outside in a vehicle and gather that information legally, without a court's permission, by tapping into the WiFi broadcast.

It's pretty apparent that people's ethical opinions about unauthorized use of someone's wireless broadband aren't backed up by actual laws.
 
Originally posted by tomf87
http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cg...ISdocID=75168413592+5+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve

Not according to the FCC.
Click to expand...
Well, actually, the last time I checked the US Constitution the US Supreme Court trumps a Federal Agency.

And, if you explore this FCC regulation you'll see that it applies only to taping or eavesdropping on conversations that aren't already being broadcast on unlicensed spectrum. This regulation is in reference to what are commonly referred to as "bugs" which are designed to pick up conversations/information that isn't being rebroadcast.
 
If someone has an unsecured wireless network that broadcasts its SSID, how is anyone supposed to know that the owner doesn't want to share it, short of the network name being "Get off my network, you bastard!"? Many people willing share their connection openly. You need to provide some sort of indication that you don't want others using your network by putting in some sort of token security at the very least, otherwise it looks very much like you're intending to offer the public service that you're in fact providing.
 
Originally posted by pdrayton
Well, actually, the last time I checked the US Constitution the US Supreme Court trumps a Federal Agency.

And, if you explore this FCC regulation you'll see that it applies only to taping or eavesdropping on conversations that aren't already being broadcast on unlicensed spectrum. This regulation is in reference to what are commonly referred to as "bugs" which are designed to pick up conversations/information that isn't being rebroadcast.
Click to expand...

Not trying to argue, but just trying to understand the issue.... Can you tell me what part of the Constitution says the US Supreme Court trumps the FCC?

http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html

Also, with my scanner, it states in the user manual that use of the scanner to record conversations is against the law. Which case were you referring to about where the Supreme Court stated it was legal to do so?
 
Originally posted by Santiago
If someone has an unsecured wireless network that broadcasts its SSID, how is anyone supposed to know that the owner doesn't want to share it, short of the network name being "Get off my network, you bastard!"?
Click to expand...
Exactly.

And, here in Boston we have numerous ISP's that permit sharing bandwidth with non-subscribers. How does one know which SSID is operating according to the User Agreement and which isn't? Should everyone deprive themselves of appropriate wireless broadband usage simply because there are people who aren't authorized to share bandwidth and ignore common sense precautions about "closing" their networks?
 
Chill...

You have done the equivalent of setting up a projection screen in your back yard, hooked up a great stereo, and then complain when your neighbors watch from their side of the fence.

(a) Shift to a closed network
(b) Pick up a book on networking; always- on broadband connections are ripe for the picking.
(c) Send him a note of thanks for clue-ing you into the importance of network security.

And, if you haven't done so, put in a firewall!

BB
 
Re: Re: WTF? You have an open network.

"So if I forget to lock my car should I expect someone to get in and turn on the radio and chill in my car? WIFI security should not be required."

No, but he's perfectly entitled to sit in his car listening to your stereo if you have the tunes cranked up and the top down. The original poster is broadcasting[\B] a signal into someone else's home. Your analogies are false.

As long as the legal situation came up, by broadcasting an open network, the originator is violating any laws against sharing a connection. It's as simple as that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
Top Bottom
Back