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This One is Small, Even By Our Standards

Thats just it! I'm not economist, and I never will be. That's why I have the freedom to voice the general opinion of the consumer. Why is it wrong for me to ask for Apple to cut their prices more? Its not! It certainly wont happen, but I think Apple should know that a big reason they are not seeing support from the consumer is because they can get a PC for far cheaper. Sure, a PC isnt as good, but it is far more economic. No, a PC isnt as stylish and you cant get a cinema display, and you'd rather have a mac. BUT, you'd be 2500 dollars richer buying the PC. (considering you buy a good 2.2P4 and a typical flat screen monitor, over a dual 1ghz and a 22 cinema display--not even the 23in)

Im not arguing that a PC is better. It typically isnt. But the money you save from buying the PC is worth more than the happiness you get from buying a Mac in most consumers eyes. Dont forget, Im not speaking for myself here--Im speaking for the typical comsumer. I DO pay for Apple stuff, because Im a fanatic. But 95% of the market isnt a fanatic. Thats why prices need to drop.

You guys are so hostile. Well, I guess I can be too.
 
OMG!
1) The price point to cost ratio on the 23 inch is basically a guess due to the fact that Apple generally keeps a 20% profit margin on everything.

2) Bull$hit on a consumer needing a 23 inch monitor. They may want it but they damn sure don't need it. When did Apple develop an obligation to "blow away" other companies product? Find that dell 23 inch LCD will ya!

3) Quote from Dell.
Dell Dimension 4400 Series:
Pentium® 4 Processor at 2.0 GHz (G4 800 will perform very close to this)
256MB DDR SDRAM (Wish Apple had this)
Enhanced Performance USB Keyboard
16MB ATI Rage Ultra 4X AGP Graphics Card (iMac has 32 mb Nvidia)
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (They did not have a 60)
3.5 in Floppy Drive
Microsoft® Windows® XP Home Edition (enough said here don't you think)
Microsoft® Intellimouse® Explorer
10/100 PCI Fast Ethernet NIC
56K Telephony Modem for Windows
New DVD+RW/ CD-RW Combo Drive
SB Live! Digital Sound Card
Harman Kardon HK-395 Speakers
Microsoft® Works Suite 2002 with Money 2002 Standard
Norton Antivirus® 2002, 90-day introductory
Dell Jukebox powered by MusicMatch
Dell Picture Studio Image Expert® 2000
1Yr Ltd. Warranty
Save $100 with mail-in rebate. Price shown before rebate
15-Inch Flat Panel Monitor:

Dimension 4400
$1,978.00

Now you explain to me how the hell Apple's prices are out of line? That is a PC that is as close as I can match with the new iMac, and look at the price, minus a 100$ rebate makes it 1878, plus 95$ shipping (oh, wait Apple doesn't charge shipping!). Their prices are very close to Dell, who is well known as the cheapest PC company out there. Point is don't give me the Shi$ about Apple being to expensive, or Apple has raised prices, the fact is that they compete very well in price, and give you more.

4) Yea, iTunes, iMovie, iPhoto, and iDVD are big deals! Try doing those things on a Windows XP box, and then report back. No comparison! Oh, and yea Apple is a great software company, lets see, Final cut Pro, DVD studio, OS X.

5) If you have a grudge against apple, then do something about it, go buy a dell, but if you want to Bitc$ have a reason to do so. Oh, and the largest LCD they offer is a 17inch that is a 660 dollar upgrade! Their 20inch stand alone is 1799, and doesn't offer near the quality or size of the Apple 22 inch!
 
Fine. Whatever.


You obviously didnt read my last post. This isnt about me, its about the consumer. Ill pay for Apple stuff. I like to. Other people wont.

Im done arguing. I realize more everyday how stupid this is.
 
Look, I agree with you this is stupid. The point that I was trying to make is differnet strokes for differnet folks right. I know this is not about you, what I was trying to say is that most consumers would not give Apple a look, even if they did cost less than the PC because of preconceived notions.

I don't blame you for your opinion, I respect it. I just thought you were being a little to harsh on their pricing thats all. We may fight like enemies, but in fact us Macheads as cyrus likes to call us are really brothers. Anyway, I do respect your opinion, and your point is well taken, hell, I wish they were cheaper, so I could replace my iMac 600 with a dual 1ghz :D
 
We all get pissy sometimes, I agree. And you'll find, the longer you are here, that I OFTEN times play devil's advocate just to stir the pot, and see what Apple people have to say. It helps me with my arguements in the future against loyal PC people. By the way, I consider myself a supporter of both platforms, with a strong inclination toward the pristineness of Apple. But I use them both. I also like SGI, but its kind of a sick duck right now.

I just wish that there wasnt a reason to be angry, you know? I wish that we didnt have to fight all the time to 'prove' that Apple is superior as a product. It should be blantantly obvious to everyone, but it isnt.

Oh well. No hard feelings then.
 
I agree, I do miss some things from my PC's, namely the kick a$$ visuals in Winamp. I don't love Apple's hardware as much as I love their OS. I too like to play the advocate sometimes :)

Anyway, look forward to future discussions with you.
Chuck
 
You all... Apple is the frekin HELLAFIED SHIZNIT.... to be blunt in an ebonics sorta way. Apple is going to blow your mind before this year is over (if it hasnt already). Just wait.



dig it!
 
what a lemon...

Hey Lemon....

One, we were warned months ago about LCD prices going up, not by Apple but news sources. Two, memory HAS been going up in price, don't blame Apple, it is across the board. Memory pricing is one of the most volitile things I have ever seen. What else can go up and down 50% or more overnight? I have seen prices change hourly, from one order to another.

Apple told us 'no new hardware for MW Tokyo'. They pretty much held to that with an update to the iPod software (sweeeeeet), iTunes 2.0.4, a second iPod model (actually glad the original stayed at the $399 since I picked one up about a month ago), and the 23" LCD. I have seen the 22" on a desk and it dominated it, I can barely imagine what the 23" must do. Not many people will be able to shell out the $3500 for one, but it is still less then the ones from NEC that are about that size.

If it takes that little to piss you off, switch to decaf and take a valium. Expect to see new hardware at MWNY and MWSF. We MIGHT get lucky and see additional releases in Paris, but don't count on it.

Until Apple actually releases something, it is 100% rumor and speculation.
 
Originally posted by agreenster
Thats just it! I'm not economist, and I never will be. That's why I have the freedom to voice the general opinion of the consumer. Why is it wrong for me to ask for Apple to cut their prices more? Its not! It certainly wont happen, but I think Apple should know that a big reason they are not seeing support from the consumer is because they can get a PC for far cheaper. Sure, a PC isnt as good, but it is far more economic. No, a PC isnt as stylish and you cant get a cinema display, and you'd rather have a mac. BUT, you'd be 2500 dollars richer buying the PC. (considering you buy a good 2.2P4 and a typical flat screen monitor, over a dual 1ghz and a 22 cinema display--not even the 23in)

Im not arguing that a PC is better. It typically isnt. But the money you save from buying the PC is worth more than the happiness you get from buying a Mac in most consumers eyes. Dont forget, Im not speaking for myself here--Im speaking for the typical comsumer. I DO pay for Apple stuff, because Im a fanatic. But 95% of the market isnt a fanatic. Thats why prices need to drop.

You guys are so hostile. Well, I guess I can be too.
Click to expand...


I wasn't trying to be hostile, and I completely agree you have the right to want prices to be lower and be vocal abuot it. I was just trying to give a realistic viewpoint on why apple doesn't cut prices: they don't have to, nor should they from a business standpoint. at least not as much as we would all like. So lonjg as apple is making a profit and doing well, why should they lower prices. I realize that I had some sarcasm in my posts which wasn't really warranted, so I apologize for that.

I might also argue that apple's consumer machines are pretty well priced compared to PC's that are comaprably equipped. its the pro line thats too expensive considering what you get for it (And i don't mean the displays. hihg quality LCD's are expensive, no way around that). Thats why i'd like to see apple not lower prices, but instead just add more high technology into the pro line, like rapid I/O, DDR, etc, etc, etc.
 
Hiyouall


Just a few things.


To chmorley :
I am pretty sure that BLUETOOTH came on PC's first , and quite some time ago. I guess some simple research could be made to find a website that states it clear, but I'll just go for my personnal experience, when back in November I saw a demonstration of a Sony notebook communicating with a cell phone (I think it was Motorola, not sure). Yes, with Bluetooth.
In fact, when it was first announced, Bluetooth technology was seen as a potential Airport concurrent... Funny.

To BacktotheMac :
As for prices, I think you should take one thing in account : if you want to get a PC, you can simply build it (or have it built) so that you chose exactly what you want, and, of course, for much less than a Dell. I guess that's what the common statement "Macs are more expensive than PC's" refer to.
 
First time poster here. Looking forward to getting my new G4 imac. Been reading the posts for awhile now, and thought I'd throw out a couple of general comments.

Notice that those with a poor business sense are usually the ones who don't have the money to afford a Mac and/or complain the loudest about the prices.
There's a correlation there and I'd recommend that anyone struggling with money issues reading a book like Rich Dad, Poor Dad to learn more about how money works. By developing a new and better thought process and in turn a better relationship with money you might actually find more money to afford things of value like what apple offers.

The new imac at 1799 or now 1899 is a very good deal. You're getting a fantastic flat panel display, the best operating system on the plant, about $500+ worth of software, the ability to play and burn both cd's and dvd's, a good size hard drive, a G4 processor, and if you buy it online at a place like MacMall they'll throw in a printer--I mean c'mon that's a good deal no matter how you slice it. I spent almost as much for my original 333mhz imac three years ago! Franlky when it was announced in January I thought it would have been priced at $1999. So even with the $100 increase its still a great deal.

Those who say PC's are cheaper, faster etc. miss the point of the total computing experience. Plus don't factor in the other costs to buy the software you get with the imac or the superdrive. Not to mention ease of use. I've used/use both a pc and a mac, and like the vast majority of those who have used both platforms, the choice is obvious and the value worth the price.
 
BobD. That is not the point. How many people in the market place (especially home users) build their own PC? I would bet less than 5 %. The point is that as a company, Apples prices are in line with the other companies (dell, gateway etc.). The reason that consumers say PC's are cheaper, is because they compare a 1.6 GHZ dell that they see on TV for 799 and a dual 1GHZ that they see at CompUSA for 3499, and they think man PC's are cheaper than Macs.

If they would compare Apples to Oranges, instead of Apples to kiwi, then they would understand that a Mac configured equally, comes out to about the same price.
 
Software

Carlmac, as far as I know, when you buy a PC, you buy software too. Of course you have the OS, but also, and this differs from manufacturer to manufacturer, a bundle of different softwares. Some provide Word, which is worth about $350, for example...
 
My point

Sorry if I wasn't clear the first time.


Carlmac says (if i understood him/her well) that if you are to compare PC's and Macs, you should take into account the value of the software bundled with the latter. All I'm saying is that PC's do not come with no software either and that you should also take these into account, in order to make a fair comparison. I sure hope I'm not going to be flamed for this statement, which I feel is only logic...

Please note that I'm not saying anything against Carlmac's other points. I just thought this one was, to say the least, inaccurate.
 
BacktotheMac

I think you unserestimate the number of people who build their PC's themselves or have them built. And whatever their quantity, I have the feeling that their way of thinking strongly contributes to people thinking that PC's are cheaper than Macs.
It is very well known among PC users that you have the opportunity to build your computer yourself, and that this way of doing things is both more complicated and cheaper. So, in PC's user opinion, even if dell and Apple have the same price range, Macs are still more expensive than PC's since the self-building option exists (not that everybody actually does it). Plus, Dell and Gateway and other brands (especially other brands, actually) have many more low cost options than Apple, which also adds to the general feeling that Macs are more expensive : the average home user computer cost is higher with Macs. But of course, this last point doesn't take into consideration what kind of computers you get, but the statement "Macs are more expensive..." doesn't either.
 
You're right about the software issue BobD, there are PC's bundled with software. I just think the Mac software bundled with the new imac is far better than what I usually see offered with other pcs.

Can you give me a configuration and price of a PC system that would have the following:
1) a flat panel display close to the resolution, brightness, sharpness and contrast of the new imac (we'll forget about finding the swivel feature of the display that the new imac offers).
2) It will also need to have about the same speed as the new imac (let's say roughly 1.4mhz to compete with the imac's 800), don't worry about the velocity engine or preemptive multitasking you get with the G4
3) same ram configuration --actually double the ram since you can get it doubled for free via many Mac online retailers)
3) it must also play and record cd's and dvd's
4) 108-key keyboard
5) decent external speaker system
6) It must have the following software--
(I realize in most cases the software won't be as good, but for comparisons sake it must have the following)...

Quicken,
an Office suite like Appleworks
photo management software
itunes-like jukebox software
movie editing software like imovie2
dvd authoring software (i.e. dvd2) (background encoding and disc burning please)
world book/encyclopedia like software
at least a couple of decent games
the obvious browser, mail, acrobat reader, AOL software
fax software so you can send and receive faxes
ideally it should also have access to something like itools, idisk

Don't forget to add the cost of a USB hub port to the system if the PC doesn't come with 5 USB ports, and of course the cost of a firewire hub if it only comes with one firewire port. And throw in the cost of a portable dvd player if it doesn't offer great monitor resolution to watch dvd's.

We'll forget about the fact we will be using Windowns XP on this system, or that many of the features on the new osX that make it rock-solid and crash proof--actually you know I take that back -- the superior mac operating system has got to be worth at least a $100, so add $100 to whatever price you come up with in this PS comparison figuration, I mean time is money. If you make let's say $50 an hour, you're gonna spend hundreds of dollars more wasting time with window crashes or configuration problems on the pc system you come up with. But to be more than fair we'll limit the superior os operating system to a $100 value.

The point of all this is that you'll be hard pressed to find a pc configuration system that has all the above and for a signficantly reduced price over the imac. But if you do manage to pull a bunch of third parties into the mix to come up with a "comparable" pc configuration, the cost difference will be more than made up for in the overall step up in quality, less down-time and better overall computing experience you're gonna get with the new imac.

That's all I'm saying.
 
Re: Software

Originally posted by Bobd
Carlmac, as far as I know, when you buy a PC, you buy software too. Of course you have the OS, but also, and this differs from manufacturer to manufacturer, a bundle of different softwares. Some provide Word, which is worth about $350, for example...
Click to expand...

Word COSTS about $350 and is worth about $50...
 
i thought i ought to respond since i seem to be the one who got everyone so fired up.

first i just want to say i had a long day yesterday to come home and find i wouldnt be getting the computer i had been hoping for... and in fact i probably woudlnt buy another mac for many years (at least for myself ill make sure work shells out some serious dough for the top of the line apple for me). so maybe i flew off the handle a bit.

but i think many of you (most of you) missed my point entirely (perhaps you are unable to read such a long post). apple has spent A LOT of money targeting the consumer, hyping the new imac, and trying to get peopel to adopt osx. apple admits that you need a g4 to adequately run osx (if you disagree then go talk to steve i dont have the patience for people who wont listen to reason). apple has stated recently (and numerous times) that they want more market share. how do you do this? you convert pc users, plain and simple. with many millions of dollars apple created the computer that could convert a pc user and the hype to let them know it was made. and that is when apple dropped the ball. i say this is the biggest blunder in apple history because apple took what could have been the greatest step toward realizing what they have strove for for many years spent all the money and then threw it all away.

and a quick digression:
sure i cant buy my computer but that was a small side note of my post not the big underlying theme people have mad eit out to be. and for the peopel criticsizing me because i dont want to spend a hundred dollars or people who think im someone bad with money. im a 21 year old college student and i have enough money sitting in my checkinga ccout to purchase one of every apple product software included. also i could make more money in a day with my degree and knowledge than many of you will make in a month. but its just a computer and since im not an idiot with money i cant justify such a large expense

but back the the topic. this is the biggest apple blunder because apple ruined everything they had spent tons of money to create. if apple wants to be the bmw fine, but dont spent years of r&d and millions of dollars in advertising to target the non-bmw buying market. apple screwed up big time and you are a loyal fool if you dont believe it (but thats cool because i have learned to value loyalty in friends and coworkers). if aple had been spending that time and money going after the bmw crowd then no biggie, but thats not what apple has been doing in recent years. apple has been aggressively pursuing comsumers. apple has slashed prices numerous times (clearly an indicator that they understand the price problem) but when it came time to finally realize the gains of all this work they screwed up. and as i outlined in my first post they screwed up in many ways that simply culminated with the price increase, but the price increase wasnt the only problem (although i see it as the straw that broke the camel's back).

but i also want to mention the reason for the price hike. if you believe that its because of a ram increase id say you are a very loyal trusting apple fan (or id say you are extremely gullible). before apple would ever built a computer in quantity they would negoitiate a price for al the components. they simply wouldnt pay whatever the seller happened to be asking that day. to believe that day to day or even month to month fluctuations and volatility would effect the price of apple's ram supply is laughable. i would be surprised if apple didnt secure a price for ram and lcds well before the price hikes in the end of december. apple announced the imac and its price in january. after the price increase of ram had occurred. if ram was expensive and apple felt it would impact the profitability of the imac they should have announced a higher price then not 3 months later. ram prices since the announcement of the imac have GONE DOWN. if you have been following ram prices you would knowthis (ok granted they have only gone down by less than 5 dollars on average but my point is that they rnt going up). further more all of apple's computers use ram. ram in apple's other machines has been dropped in price. powermacs (little knwon fact) have actually dropped in price since mwt. the ram promotion on the powermacs that has been in effect for many months has also been uneffected byy this ram hike apple is purporting as the cause of the imac's price hike. the lcd prices are harder for me to prove simply because there is less evidence. but there is evidence for it. again apple claims lcd price have caused the increase in price of the imac however all of apple's computers have lcds. the laptops are just as dependant on lcds as the imac. again only the imac saw price increases. and ibooks and powerbooks have seen nothing but massive discounts and promotional givaways. hardly a sign of an lcd shortage. furthermore the lcds associated with the powermacs are not only not seeing a price hike but are receiving a promotional discount! this discount although ending soon as been uneffected by the "lcd shortage." next we have a brand new lcd being introduced. its hard to believe that apple would introduce yet another lcd product that will meet high demand if they felt the prices were volatile. and despite the argument about the price of the hd cinema display it is comparable to the market and what the original cineman display was released at (ie doesnt look like apple pre-hiked the price of it). and lastly i will mention again that apple would have secured prices for lcds for their imacs long before any of these price increases (that incidntally have not effected the prices i see on lcds in and catalgues) occured, and likely in nticipation of such a price hike.

it seems abundantly clear the cause of the price increase is not due to lcd or ram prices. this means apple lied. which makes one wonder why they actually raised prices. if apple had told me a part specific to the imac had increased in price i would say bad luck for apple, why didnt they secure the price for that, and admit they did what they had to do. but since an external shortage/price hike does not seem plausible i can only assume it came from inside. and that i do find fault with, expecially after apple has taken such great strides in recent years to address the consumer market and prices in particular.

i have received more emails regarding this post than any other post in the past. i had people offering to give me the $100 so i could buy my imac. every single person who emailed me agreed with me. and most of them were considering buying an imac... not anymore though. some of you zeaots around here need to realize that to the consumer this is unacceptable, especially after 3 months of putting up with other problems. and because this is unacceptable to the consumer this is a disaster for apple. apple has alienated and betrayed their customers, many of them first time buyers and that is going to stick with people for a very long time.

lastly i want to address some people who rudely told me to "put my cpu where my mouth is" and give away my computer. i feel i am putting my cpu where my mouth is. yesterday i was going to pay $1900 for a new high end imac. today i am not. i think that sends a clear message. apple may make an extra $100 off a few people but they will have to sell a lot more to make up for all the people like me and those who emailed me. at higher prices i dnt see apple selling more. so hopefully they will get the message. i wanted an imac because i wanted a desktop to compliment my laptop. it was small, it was a novelty, and it gave me some features i had been wanting that my laptop lacked. i was willing to sink 2k for a new toy (as stupid as that sounds) but since it is just a toy and i dont need it, im not going to buy it when the company that sells it is lying to me.

but that last bit is on a more personal note, and does not change or influence the facts that apple screwed up big time. if they had done nothing new a mwt it would have been fine. if they ahd released the products they released but not hike the imac that would have been great. but with one fell swoop they erased years of money and work at rebuilding the mac user base and posing them selves for increased market share. all gone for a quick $100. stupid to say the least. and i cant think of anytime in apple history when apple made such a blunder.
 
I really don't know how this thread got off the topic of MWT to Robert Kiyosaki books (richdad.com) , but anyway, here's my 2 cents...

Everyone would like more product for less money, but some people seem to think that Apple is indestructable. for example "oh yeah, let's make the 23" panel a consumer product..." or "the iMac is way more expensive than a dell" -- it's not... if apple cut their prices or overestimated demand for a product, we'd soon be back to the dark days of 97... has everyone forgotten about when apple was going to go under and m$ saved them???


be realistic with your expectations...


oh, and BTW, don't accuse me of being a blind apple follower -- because i'm not...
 
digression?!

and a quick digression:
Click to expand...

:( errr, who cares how much smart you are or how much money you can make in a month?

You should have digressed a bit further and have not included it at all ;)

Later,
Afonso
 
alfonso. i agree i shouldnt have had to say it, but if you read the whole thread you would see that nearly everyone was calling me stupid and giving me financial advice because they assumed i was hard up for money or something. one guy was so patronizing as to suggest a couple of books for me to read about how to properly manage my money. i felt i had to respond to these personal attacks by letting everyone know that i was by no means stupid or broke or something.

perhaps you should read all the posts before you insult someone.
 
Maybe if you didn't make the posts so damned long we would be more inclined to read all of them. I saw the length and just gave up. I did start to read your first one, but damn man... edit it down some will ya????
 
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