This One is Small, Even By Our Standards

[carlmac]

Ambitious LemonGrasshopper,

You do need to go back and read the posts, I wasn't offering you specifically any advice, just making a noted correlation between people complaining about the cost of apple/price increases etc. and their own financial resources. In fact I wasn't even thinking about you when I wrote the post. That you took it personally should give you pause for thought.

Of course, one can have a million dollars and still be a "poor man". It's all in the thinking.

As far as Apple making the "biggest blunder in its history" and "in one fell swoop erasing years of money and work at rebuilding the base" this is nothing but hyperbole. Chill.

Yes Apple messed up the launch of this product and missed some initial opportunities, (for which the stock market will rightly punish them for) New product launches are often screwed up--especially in the tech sector.
However, the public is a large, slow moving beast, and there is plenty of time to regroup and reap huge dividends from the imac which they will do.

As far as Apple lying about the price increase etc. etc. methinks you've been watching too many conspiracy movies. The truth is out there.

 

[afonso]

my friend,

i don't think i insulted you, did i? i was just saying, even if people are implying stuff about you if you just ignore it it's best for us all...

just an opinion. i hate having these otherwise cool forums getting bloated up by trivial accusations between us all mac lovers and haters...


it's funny though you never see anything like this on pc forums

later,
afonso

 

[chmorley]

Bluetooth

Bobd:

Not that I doubt your word or anything, but do you know of any documentation supporting that Sony had implemented Bluetooth already? I searched Sony's site for any mention of it and came up with nothing. This refers to a camera that Sony will release, but hasn't yet. I searched Bluetooth's site and came up with some references to PC products being introduced virtually simultaneously with the Mac stuff, but nothing about any Sony stuff being used in November. That's just fine with me, anyway. My only point was that third-party stuff has been coming to the PC first, and then the Mac significantly later.

As far as I can tell, there is no computer company doing more with Bluetooth today than Apple is.

So where can I find a reference to this cool Sony technology?

Chris

 

[lasvegasgamer]

Ha...

I am too new to these boards, but definitly not to Boards in general, I love to get my head in as many debates as possible ((usually the heated ones)) Mac OS X vs 9, Xbox vs PS2/Gamecube Mac vs PC etc...I major in foresnic sciences anyway...so I'm good at this

Let me just some up some of the topics I have seen from some people:

Q1)Apple has all this pro stuff for $1000+ but not enough for the consumer to afford...
A1)That is really quite stupid, consumers want as much as they can get their hands on...but they cant afford it. Consumers want a $2000+ pro monitor so apple should lower it to a price consumers can afford just because they want it...That is very very stupid.Apple would lose money

Q2)Apple is splitting themselves between pro and consumer
A2)Yea, so...? They can do that...and they can have a different price point...Microsoft has stolen some of the pro so Apple is trying to steal the consumers.

Q3)Software preinstalled on a Mac is worse then a PC...
A3)Really not true...but I am noticing something, very little 3rd Party software comes on any computer anymore. PC makers are no longer touting their software suite as much as they used to. iMacs don't come with what they used to. My Rev C iMac came with a lot of 3rd Party software ((which was suprising seeing that Apple was coming out of its dark days then...well not then, the Rev C did have the same sw as the bondi-blue and the bondi-blue was the end of the dark days)) so its coming down to

PCs-Windows XP stuff ((OS and minimal software)) plus M-Works
Macs-Mac OS X stuff ((OS and working software)) plus A-Works

What Microsoft Works comes with is VERY insulting...I just bought a Dell without the Office XP upgrade ((well, not just bought...about a year ago)) for my mom. Word comes with it but the features that make Word ((XP and V.X)) ok are on Software recovery disks ((6 just for works)) that I had to sort through, The rest of works is even more pathetic..Microsoft is losing a lot of its footing because people are realizing that they can have Office X on the Mac ((apple is touting that now)) and that AppleWorks can open Office Stuff while M-Works cant open M-Office stuff. Thats not great compatibility. Microsoft Works is redundent, Microsoft doesn't work in that regard.

What is with the lack of 3rd party software coming with the Mac ((I loved Williams Sonoma Good Cooking with my iMac)) or the PC...\

Q4)Apple is lieing about the price increase
A4)Hold on...((Yea I know its sad to make you hold on in a BB message ))

I just went to Pricewatch.com...and since I last went ((Beginning of January)) prices are drastically up...I could buy a stick of 128 ram (PC-133 sdram) at the begginning of the year for $9 bucks w/o shipping, this wasn't the best ram but it was ok. That same ram is now $22 w/o shipping. Cruical.com is feeling the heat as they have price jumps of over $20 on that low end ram. Higher quality ram that apple uses felt this as it was across the market...as for LCDs its the same idea, the tech market does not have the great demand as the market is feeling the slow down of the DotComets. The makers of the ram and computer parts of the computer surplus are just now shipping their last stocks of ram from late 2000. So now they have to make more and no surplus means demand...people knew this was going to happened. They said it about 9 months ago...

As for MW:Tokyo, I always watch the Macworlds from home and the internet. Funny that the Mac community wont come to where the rest of the Computer industry does...but I don't mind it I respect it. When Apple comes up with another iMac type machine to seriously rival windows pcs they should come to Macworld:Las Vegas "We came to their home turf to show our product" or something like that. But why did Apple introduce the new 10gb iPod so quickly...they could have waited a little bit. It wasn' t something that everyone wanted. They could have waited till France or New York, by then the mini hd prices would be down. Oh well...time for Jaguar 10.2, G5s or somethin else to revoultionize it. iWalk/iPad on the way or is it just hype?

"Apple makes you think"

 

[Bobd]

Sony and Bluetooth

Chmorley :

http://www.vaio.sony-europe.com/ger/products/notebooks/fx201_frames_top.html

I'm sorry it is in German, but I was in a mall in Berlin when I saw what I saw. But you will definitely see they talk about Bluetooth here.
Actually, I just realized it's on UK's site too :
http://www.vaio.sony-europe.com/eng/products/notebooks/sr21k_frames_top.html



CarlMac :

Thanks for your answer and clarifying your statement about bundled software.

First, I think I mentionned I did not disagree with the rest of what you wrote. I just say that in my opinion, PC's offer valuable software too, depending on the brand. As for the interest, let me tell you that I'd rather have Word than iMovie which does not fit my personnal needs...

Second, it is very useless to try and compare 2 computers that are completely different. It is like comparing a car and a motorcycle, saying a Motorcycle is better because you can make your way through traffic jams etc... but not mention the fact that you get wet when it is raining or that a car can carry more people. It is even more useless to try to find a car that will match every single feature of the motorcycle (and vice versa)... This is a simple examplme to illustrate my point, I'm not saying PC's and Macs can be directly compared to a car and a motorcycle... It is very easy to put in front the advantages (or differences) of Mac and saying PCdoesn't offer the same, but keep in mind that it is as easy to do it the other way, too :

Find an affordable Mac in which I can add the sound card I'm looking for or replace the video card, on which I can play hundreds of different high speed, full resolution games... Let's say these are the most important points to me (they are not actually), and then I'll have to say that PC's offer better features than Macs...

By the way, maybe you should not take into account that 5th USB port on iMacs, since it is internal and therefore not accessible.

 

[agreenster]

Originally posted by carlmac
[BNotice that those with a poor business sense are usually the ones who don't have the money to afford a Mac and/or complain the loudest about the prices.
[/B]

Hmm. I'd be careful there.

If you are trying to say that the reason I am complaining about the price of Apple Computers is because I lack the funds to buy one, you're pretty dead wrong. Last count, I have 4 Macs, not including the three I had before these. I am really well off financially as well.

The reason I am complaining about Apple prices is because I'd like to see Apple regain 5-6% marketshare, and my feeling is they wont or cant do it without seriously cutting prices.

Anyway, welcome to MacRumors

 

[agreenster]

Re: Sony and Bluetooth

Originally posted by Bobd
Find an affordable Mac in which I can add the sound card I'm looking for or replace the video card, on which I can play hundreds of different high speed, full resolution games... Let's say these are the most important points to me (they are not actually), and then I'll have to say that PC's offer better features than Macs...

I'm pretty sure you can.(sarcasm)

I have an OLD G4 (the original "Yikes!" G4 400) and have already swapped out the video card, added another HD, and can play nearly any game you want at pretty high resolution. One of my favs is Unreal Tourney (even though I havent played in months and months) and I can play it at 1024x768, at the highest quality, and maintain a great framerate. I can only image what new G4's are doing.

Affordable? Thats another stary, and that horse has been kicked dead by me already. But, you can get a G4 tower now for pretty cheap, just not their high-end G4 towers. (dual 1ghz)

 

[Bobd]

Guys, how come you all feel so offended whenever someone says "Macs are not the best computer in the universe for everything".

As I remember it, G4 tower + screen > Imac in terms of price. My post was about comparing the iMac to PC's in general as an answer to CarlMac saying, in essence, that the iMac is simply superior for the same price as PC's.

As for games, since you can play "Any game I want" at pretty high resolution, tell me about Medal of Honor, tell me about Everquest, tell me about Flight Simulator 2002, etc. My point is not that you can't play games on a Mac, but rather that it is not the best platform available for this at the moment we're speaking, mostly because of the low number of games available.
The other reason is, of course, price. Good for you you can play games on your G4 400, and it is truze that this computer is not very pricey nowadays - because you would have to get it second hand. Nowadays, if what you're looking for is gaming experience, you can get a much cheaper computer if you choose a PC, and I don't think you will disagree. (Truth is, you can get an even better gaming experience if you buy a PS2 or Gamecube )

BUT that's all I'm saying : basically, that if I were to compare Macs and PC's on this particular aspect of things, Macs wouldn't stand a chance. This meaning that, in my opinion, there is no absoultely superior computer, it just depends on what you want to do. And therefore, as I already said, it is very easy to find things at which this or that computer is better, but if you chose a computer according to these things then you should also accept that for other things it just won't be the best computer around. Heck, there's a reason why PC's are so popular, it's just not the millions of PC users who are wrong... Some probably are, some chose what is best for them.

 

[Bobd]

vocabulary

Oh, and Agreenster :

I am not a native English speaker and I'm not sure I got the "that horse has been kicked dead by me already" part. Could you please explain it in an other way?

 

[agreenster]

Point taken about the games. I wasnt trying to come off as defensive--I was just wondering if you knew that G4's can be very expandible. Many people think that the iMac is the only computer Apple offers, and dont like Apple then because their computers are not expandible.

But you are totally right. PC market offers many more games, and you could make a PC for pretty cheap that can outgame a Mac.

Oh, and my dead horse comment:

Its a strange American phrase--- If someone is "kicking a dead horse," they are making a point that has already been made over and over, and is pointless to make again. In other words, it does you no good. It is derived from the analogy that someone is riding a horse, and is trying to get it to go by kicking it (from the saddle). If the horse is dead, you could kick all day long and nothing would happen.

I had already made my point about Macs being too expensive throughout this thread, and making it again would have been "kicking a dead horse."

 

[Bobd]

Thanks a lot for the answer !!

 

[lasvegasgamer]

I'm a loyal mac fan, but not stupid...I'm not even gonna sit here and say that the Mac can outgame PCs...However, at my high school we have a lot of gamers and they all have a favorite game that we play and talk. the games usually last for a month before we go onto a next one...And for the last 1.5 years, I've been able to keep up with the trends Currently and Becoming All the time with the other games also is:Starcraft, runs well in Mac OS X and etc...Deus Ex,Castle Wolf, STV:EF and a few others that work on the Mac, yes some times I use my VAIO to play the non-mac games, but its not as bad as you think. Maybe get an XBox, its the one thing that Microsoft did well on...

"Do the Hustle"

 

[Taft]

Did you read my post?

Did you happen to read my post about Apple inventory channels and part supplier ability to supply parts??? I suggest you do.

The point you make is valid: Apple probably did negotiate a price for their parts.

But now you have to ask two questions: Did they order enough? and Can the suppliers supply enough? My answer to both is no.

First there is a shortage of LCD monitors right now due to silicon shortages. Second Apple undoubtedly underestimated demand (read my last post). The prospect of ramping up production is not an easy one (again, read my last post).

This is a far more complex picture than you paint. Its bad, but given the demand for the iMac and the parts prices and problems it is expected and not nearly "the worst move Apple has ever made."

Matthew

 

[AmbitiousLemon]

mrtrumbe: you make good points. i can imagine that apple under negoitiated the parts. but it still does not address the fact that all of apple's machines use ram and lcds and all the rest have significant discounts. if apple was having problems getting ram and lcds at good prices they should first end the promotions before raising prices. but appartently the problem is specific to imacs.

ok maybe there are new powermacs in the works and thats why apple doubled the powermac discounts and continued the powermac lcd discount and continued the powermac ram discount. but i still find it questionable that apple can be practically giving powermacs away with mroe ram and larger lcds and then say there is a ram and lcd shortage.

these are the very things they are continuing to discount in other lines and their statement that it is simply ram and lcd prices driving imac production costs up just doesnt hold water.

if apple had blamed it on parts specific to an imac it would make sense.

 

[krossfyter]

if ya wanna play games....get a console...they are made specifically for that...and a hellof a lot cheaper too.


on the other hand if you want to do some serious creative sh*t then get a mac.

 

[AlphaTech]

Originally posted by AmbitiousLemon
mrtrumbe: you make good points. i can imagine that apple under negoitiated the parts. but it still does not address the fact that all of apple's machines use ram and lcds and all the rest have significant discounts. if apple was having problems getting ram and lcds at good prices they should first end the promotions before raising prices. but appartently the problem is specific to imacs.

ok maybe there are new powermacs in the works and thats why apple doubled the powermac discounts and continued the powermac lcd discount and continued the powermac ram discount. but i still find it questionable that apple can be practically giving powermacs away with mroe ram and larger lcds and then say there is a ram and lcd shortage.

these are the very things they are continuing to discount in other lines and their statement that it is simply ram and lcd prices driving imac production costs up just doesnt hold water.

if apple had blamed it on parts specific to an imac it would make sense.

Lemon... Not ALL of Apple's machines use LCD's, only the new iMac and the laptops do. All other systems CAN use the LCD's, but that is an option. As for RAM, the iMac and laptops use SODimms, where the towers use SDRAM (completely different animals). Also, the 667 TiBook uses PC133, where the rest use PC100, again different chips. IF you knew about such things, you wouldn't have made the comments, I can only give you the benefit of lack of knowledge there.

Continueing to whine about the $100 increase does no-one any good, least of all you. Get one or don't. For me, $100 would not break my bank account, or push me away from Apple. $500 or more might make me wait a month or so longer, but that is about all.

 

[AmbitiousLemon]

alpha. getting snippy rnt we. i find it odd how people get upset when someone points out fault in apple. as far as im concerned if apple does something wrong im going to mention it. this blind loyalty is cool for your pet dog but it seems odd coming from a bunch of educated people for a corporation.

your points are taken, but apple is claiming industry wide ram and lcd shortages causing problems. i find it extremely odd that these industry wide shortages would only effect imac ram and imac lcds while ignoring all the other ram and lcds.

since i have been thinking about buying an imac i have been pricing ram since january. ram specific for the imac. as far as the individual consumer is concerned imac ram prices have dropped. maybe its rising for apple but not for me. this is one reason i waited. if i bought a 512mb chip in januray it would have cost me close to $200 now i can get it for $130.

and please dont make insulting statements about me "whining" about $100. im not whining about anything. im not even talking about my purchase or no purchase. these were stated side notes when they were mentioned at all. im simply pointing out that apple HAS lied to us about what the imac problem is, and i find it odd how people will fight and personally insult me just because they dont want to believe apple lied to them.

 

[AlphaTech]

I just checked memory pricing for both the G3 and G4 iMac systems (with a vendor that provides rock solid memory). A 512 chip for the G3 is running $135, a 512 chip for the G4 iMac is running $220.

Memory pricing can fluctuate wildly on a daily, if not hourly, basis. It could drop by a good amount one day, only to go back up even more the following one. From six months ago, memory prices have about doubled. How many people remember the sub $100 for a 512 chip (desktop)??

Articles have been published about the cost of LCD's going up, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

 

[Bobd]

Krossfyter, welcome to a world where there are other alternatives for a computer than to do creative work. How was Mars ?

 

[AmbitiousLemon]

Originally posted by AlphaTech
I just checked memory pricing for both the G3 and G4 iMac systems (with a vendor that provides rock solid memory). A 512 chip for the G3 is running $135, a 512 chip for the G4 iMac is running $220.

Memory pricing can fluctuate wildly on a daily, if not hourly, basis. It could drop by a good amount one day, only to go back up even more the following one. From six months ago, memory prices have about doubled. How many people remember the sub $100 for a 512 chip (desktop)??

Articles have been published about the cost of LCD's going up, so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

i hate to be butting heads with you because you are a cool guy, but you do keep ignoring or missing my point. sure i can find overprices ram right now if i want. i can also find a 512mb g4imac chip for sub $100 if i want. none of that is relevant. the point i am making is ONLY the imac got a price jump. not only that but apple has promotions on ram and lcds in their other machines, with huge price cuts. this doesnt seem like a company that is having supply issues.

 

[chmorley]

What planet are you from?

Originally posted by Bobd
Krossfyter, welcome to a world where there are other alternatives for a computer than to do creative work. How was Mars ?

Is everyone there pissy and argumentative?

Krossfyter simply made a couple of statements of fact. He didn't state that all computers could be used for was creative stuff.

I'm starting to think you are Gocyrus. You make some comments that are clearly just designed to piss people off. If it's a language problem, then maybe I understand. It looks more like a thinking problem.

And I'm not sure how much creative work is done on Mars anymore. I think most of it is done on Uranus.

Chris

 

[AmbitiousLemon]

i love how "gocyrus" has become the universal term for a$$hole around here. its pretty funny, how whenever anyone gets too pissy or insulting we start accusing them of being gocyrus and they will quickly realize they got too offensive.

 

[Bobd]

Sorry if you think I meant to be agressive... I was merely trying to make a joke... never mind... and sorry again if I offended Krossfyre. And since it is Chmorley who posted, I guess I should apologize to you too, if you feel like I have not been correct to you as for the bluetooth affair (did you check the sites out, btw?)

Anyway, I think that Krossfyre missed my point. As I recall it, I myself stated that game consoles were good for gaming, so why did he have to state it again? You may feel I want to piss you off, but truly that's not my intention. I have a couple of things I'd like to say, and yes, some of these are not favorable to Apple, but I feel like I need to react when I believe something that was written is wrong, or if I feel that I know a bit of information that can be useful to others. Of course, I may just misunderstand some of what I read : then please let me know. Last post excluded (for reasons mentionned above), I think, as I re-read myself, that I have shown respect to people to which I answer in my posts, and if you feel I didn't, I know I tried and meant to... I have always tried to put things in perspective and apart from gaming, I have only stated very precise points and never general comments such as "Macs sucks" or such, which I believe are non interesting in a debating place.

Now comes what you may call "the insulting part" : again, i do not intend it to be, and please react to it if you should feel hurt.

My feeling, actually, is that you guys are a little bit touchy when it comes to criticizing your favorite computers. I mean, you do not like people saying that for some reason or another, Macs are not perfect. And of course, there are reasons why they are not. I feel like many Macusers would rather try not to see them and put a veil on their face (i hope that makes sense in English), and sort of manipulate the facts to their advantage, or chose the ones -and only the ones- that will make their point stronger. This applies more or less to some posts here, and more generally to the Mac universe (comparing G4 and P4/Athlon performance only on a few Photoshop filters will never be considered by me as a sufficient benchmark, and is too easily transformed into a G4>P4 where it should be G4 in Phtoshop > P4 in Photoshop).
Of course, thaere is a name for it, it is marketing, and of course Intel or AMD do it too. The thing is, while Mac users buy the marketing intentionnaly inaccurate statement, PC users usually don't. Well, at least, I don't. And can't understand why others do.

This may be a surprise to some of you, but I'm actually a Mac user too. I use G4's for editing purposes in 2 "offices" out of 3 that I work for, I love FCP. I was the one who made the call so that these business would buy G4's, I added a few things to make them fit my purposes. But I also use a PC at home for a thousand things, and I love it too. I would just like to have the best of both worlds, if you ask me... I just don't feel the same loyalty that you guys have towards Apple, because i have no sentimental or passionate involvement with computers. I have very often seen posts comparing Macs to car brands that are "cool", "great" etc. but I just don't understand it because I don't particularily like cars either. Actually, there is not many material things I'm attached to, if any... Thoses I feel more attached to are the ones I built or designed for myself, and therefore, I guess I would be more attached to my PC that I built from scratch than to Macs I use.

Anyway, this post is starting to be long and quite boring, and as I'm writing it, I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to a psychanalyst... To sum it up, don't feel offended, I'm just trying to share a different perspective with you. Heck, we all need someone else's points of view sometimes...

 

[Bobd]

And one last thing

I have no idea who Gocyrus is. But if you call him an ******* and think it's me, don't you think that's insulting too?

 

[chmorley]

No worries

You were fine with me about the Bluetooth stuff. I had my facts wrong. I checked out the links, and Sony had it first. I am not sure they did anything meaningful with it before Apple did, but that's not their fault. They even have it integrated into their machine, which is a step ahead of Apple.

I am personally not easily offended. I think your response to Krossfyter was pissy and missed the point.

I have never called gocyrus a name of any sort. He was anti-Mac and antagonistic. I think you have been fairly even-handed, but defend PC's more than most here. That's going to ruffle some feathers. As long as that's not your goal, I don't have an issue with you shooting down people's (somewhat inflated) opinions about our computers.

We get touchy because most people who criticize Macs have never given them a fair shot. Most people are utterly stupid about them, and that's frustrating as hell. And we get silly and stupid and give each other a hard time because...well, because we are people with strong opinions and a bit of passion. Hopefully we can all have a sense of humor about it.

By the way, did you know there's a ring around Uranus?

Chris