Thoughts on AMD Radeon R9 M370X over the Nvidia 750m?

[shoehornhands]

hmm, so how will a GPU with tech from 2012 manage to drive an (unannounced) 5k external display at 5120-by-2880 resolution at 60Hz?

The bottleneck isn't so much the chip itself as it is the interface between the card and the monitor (i.e. the card itself can handle the bandwidth but wouldn't be able to transfer the data to the monitor fast enough).

So while the M370X is based on older tech, that doesn't mean certain aspects of the card couldn't be updated to support higher resolutions.

 

[deconstruct60]

Someone pointed out in the mac pro forum that the specs page of the new macbook pro with M370X has been updated to support the full 5k display with 5120x2880 resolution. That means it supports displayport 1.3 and potentially an upcoming 5k display from Apple.

It doesn't necessarily means DP v1.3 There are no explicitly speced DP v1.3 GPUs on the market right now and yet people are using external, discrete 5K displays. Right now this generally means a two cable solution. Need two independent DP v1.2 sources to connect to an external display which "merges" this back into a single display.

Mac Pro and Retina iMac do it that way....

https://www.macrumors.com/2015/04/13/os-x-10-10-3-dell-5k/


The rMBP 15" has two TB/mDP ports. It would be semi-custom job (from typical TB v2 set up), but if can hook those two ports in legacy mode to two internal display port sources then it is quite doable. For TB v1 that is exactly how the hooks were done; two DP v1.1 sources that could each a passed through to the two ports on two port Macs.

Since this chip is based on the desktop design ( just clocked lower ), it probably has multiple DP v1.2 sources. It is a matter of hooking them up.


The only true indicator of DP v1.3 would be that 5K works with a single cable. Problem there is whether there are any 5K monitors on the market now with single cable inputs? Not that I know of. Even if have DP 1.3 signal what do you hook it too? (they are coming but it is a chicken-and-egg-first situation right now) So again this points back to what is probably just matching with the Mac Pro and 5K iMac can do with approximately the same version of OS X that this rMBP ships with.

P.S. In a two cable solution, a 5K monitor would be completely suppressing Thunderbolt as both ports would be dedicated to backward compatible DP mode. So capped at USB 3.0 speeds for any external I/O you need.

P.P.S. the "two cable" solution is how it works inside of the 5K iMacs.... only because it is internal Apple contracts for a single custom two independent stream cable be made. So not two physically separate cables but two cable internals worth of lanes. All the 1st gen 5K monitors work with this "two cable" solution.

 

[Stacc]

It doesn't necessarily means DP v1.3 There are no explicitly speced DP v1.3 GPUs on the market right now and yet people are using external, discrete 5K displays. Right now this generally means a two cable solution. Need two independent DP v1.2 sources to connect to an external display which "merges" this back into a single display. ...

You are right, the specs may assume 2 cables, but no other computer lists this capability in its specs, even the "new" iMac introduced this week. Displayport 1.3 was finalized almost a year ago, so the timing could be right, especially with a fresh line of AMD GPUs coming out to start seeing stuff that supports it. No one makes a displayport 1.3 monitor, but Apple could have one in the works.

 

[deconstruct60]

... Displayport 1.3 was finalized almost a year ago, so the timing could be right, especially with a fresh line of AMD GPUs coming out to start seeing stuff that supports it. No one makes a displayport 1.3 monitor, but Apple could have one in the works.

It is a bit of a stretch to declare it almost a year ago. It was last Sept 15. September isn't for another 4 months. That is like a 1/4- 1/3 of a year (depend how much of September you count).

http://www.anandtech.com/show/8533/...rt-13-standard-50-more-bandwidth-new-features

They may have put it up for a vote a year ago ( didn't check but it wouldn't be surprising)


Apple rarely tech specs stuff you can't do at release. Like postulating that there will be eventually be 3TB drives when there are only 2TB drives available at launch. Thunderbolt had almost nothing on initial release, but there was target mode where could transfer between two Macs at release even with zero full time top end speed peripherals on the market at the time. The other aspect is that Apple rarely updates specs after new software/hardware expands the capabilities later (e.g., Macs upgradable to higher memory capacities 1 year later with parts Apple BTO doesn't select. ) .

The other problem is if AMD did a significant revision the M370X is based on older design. They could have tweaked the displayport output subsystem without touching the GPU graphics functionality but that seems to be a stretch.
Maybe because GCN 1.0 is kind of goofy as it is a bit of a OpenCL dead ender (not being able to go to OpenCL 2.0). If tweaked some that also that would make this choice make more sense.


However, Approved specs and shipping products are two different things. Especially when it is hardcoded in hardware. Both AMD and Nvidia have more than few design as "new" products that were designed before DP v1.3 went final. Even going final last Fall it would be kind of early to see a new design have 1.3 now. The GPU design process would have been in the "open" stage when the spec went final. Lots of design go "closed" many months before release as the QA and bug check for release process last that long.

 

[827538]

How do you know where it is? The tracking just says 1st June for me...

Got a tracking number, go to your account on the store page and if Apple has dispatched it you'll get it there.
Then just enter it on UPS's page.

 

[Freyqq]

AFAIK it hasn't. It's built on the same 28nm process and unlike Maxwell, there have been no architectural changes...

Is the tdp on the AMD chip greater than the 750M?

 

[dusk007]

Probably the same. Apple would have just clocked it wherever it needed to let it end up at the same TDP.

 

[HarryT]

Got a tracking number, go to your account on the store page and if Apple has dispatched it you'll get it there.
Then just enter it on UPS's page.

Doh. I ordered as a business so it's not tied to an account :-(

 

[Glumpfner]

Such a shame that Apple keeps using crippled GPUs on high end MacBooks. I wish there would come a time where Apple uses NVidias high end mobile GPUs in their high end MacBook Pro. I would get rid of my Windows Laptop if Apple would have used a GTX 970M.

 

[yjchua95]

Such a shame that Apple keeps using crippled GPUs on high end MacBooks. I wish there would come a time where Apple uses NVidias high end mobile GPUs in their high end MacBook Pro. I would get rid of my Windows Laptop if Apple would have used a GTX 970M.

The TDP of the GTX970M would melt it. Anything with a TDP higher than that of the 750M won't do.

 

[MagicBoy]

Such a shame that Apple keeps using crippled GPUs on high end MacBooks. I wish there would come a time where Apple uses NVidias high end mobile GPUs in their high end MacBook Pro. I would get rid of my Windows Laptop if Apple would have used a GTX 970M.

Yeah, they could re-use the chassis design of the PowerBook G5.

 

[Zarniwoop]

The other problem is if AMD did a significant revision the M370X is based on older design. They could have tweaked the displayport output subsystem without touching the GPU graphics functionality but that seems to be a stretch.
Maybe because GCN 1.0 is kind of goofy as it is a bit of a OpenCL dead ender (not being able to go to OpenCL 2.0). If tweaked some that also that would make this choice make more sense. .

Radeon M370X = M270X = 8870M (They all are Venus XT chips, 6821 device ID)

AND in Amd's SDK v.3 beta it says that "OpenCL 2.0 supported on 8800M series."
http://developer.amd.com/tools-and-sdks/opencl-zone/amd-accelerated-parallel-processing-app-sdk/system-requirements-driver-compatibility/

Also if you look at this AMD's Solar System GPU slide, you can see that the 8000M family received updated, second generation GCN. Back then it was not yet called version 1.1, hence the confusion.

 

[Onexy]

What an embarrassing update… when Skylake releases has to deliver.

 

[jnpy!$4g3cwk]

Radeon M370X = M270X = 8870M (They all are Venus XT chips, 6821 device ID)

AND in Amd's SDK v.3 beta it says that "OpenCL 2.0 supported on 8800M series."
--
Also if you look at this AMD's Solar System GPU slide, you can see that the 8000M family received updated, second generation GCN. Back then it was not yet called version 1.1, hence the confusion.

I don't know if anyone has any experience with the the CompuBench benchmark, but, it does let you do some comparisons using OpenCL. Here is a comparison of the AMD M370X and Nvidia 860M.

On those benchmarks, at least, those two GPUs are pretty comparable.

What an embarrassing update… when Skylake releases has to deliver.

Why is it embarrassing? And, are you saying that Apple should have waited 5-6 months? Skylake is not available today. In these groups, I see a lot of people criticizing Apple for not updating often enough and not making minor upgrades. So they did it.

 

[cookies!]

Why is it embarrassing? And, are you saying that Apple should have waited 5-6 months? Skylake is not available today. In these groups, I see a lot of people criticizing Apple for not updating often enough and not making minor upgrades. So they did it.

Indeed. What would really be embarrassing is if Apple was still selling the 2014 rMBP 8-12 months from now. It would lose any competitive edge except for its trackpad. Its hardware simply wouldn't have a single selling point over other, cheaper laptops. At least it can hold its own for another year, now.

High end laptops are a competitive market, and a 10-20% performance increase every year must be maintained to preserve market share.

 

[Pentad]

Yeah, they could re-use the chassis design of the PowerBook G5.

Man, was that a sweet Powerbook! Dual G5s, liquid cooled, updated hinge...

-P

 

[leman]

I don't know if anyone has any experience with the the CompuBench benchmark, but, it does let you do some comparisons using OpenCL. Here is a comparison of the AMD M370X and Nvidia 860M.

On those benchmarks, at least, those two GPUs are pretty comparable.

Only a shame that there is no Mac with a 860M. Switch the platform to Windows and you will see the difference.

 

[deconstruct60]

You are right, the specs may assume 2 cables, but no other computer lists this capability in its specs, even the "new" iMac introduced this week.

Apple's updated support doc on 4K (and up ) Display support.

"...
Some displays with resolutions higher than 4K require two DisplayPort cables to connect the display at full resolution. With OS X Yosemite v10.10.3 or later, the Dell UP2715K 27-inch 5K display is supported on the following Mac computers:
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2014 and later)
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015) with AMD Radeon R9 M370X
..."
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202856


the M370X is there in part because it supports multiple DP v1.2 source outputs. Need at least two independent v1.2 outputs to get to two external ports both being filled up. The rMBP 15" M370X version works exactly the same fundamental way the Mac Pro and iMac work. Nothing new. These are DP cables, not TB. Thunderbolt isn't even in play here at all.


Intel Iris Graphics can't drive two full DP v1.2 sources. Not sure if the Nvidia mobile ones do. Minus driving > 4K displays ( or several 4K ones ) there isn't a huge need to. One full DP v1.2 source can drive multiple displays.

 

[Stacc]

Apple's updated support doc on 4K (and up ) Display support.

"...
Some displays with resolutions higher than 4K require two DisplayPort cables to connect the display at full resolution. With OS X Yosemite v10.10.3 or later, the Dell UP2715K 27-inch 5K display is supported on the following Mac computers:
Mac Pro (Late 2013)
iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, Late 2014 and later)
MacBook Pro (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2015) with AMD Radeon R9 M370X
..."
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202856


the M370X is there in part because it supports multiple DP v1.2 source outputs. Need at least two independent v1.2 outputs to get to two external ports both being filled up. The rMBP 15" M370X version works exactly the same fundamental way the Mac Pro and iMac work. Nothing new. These are DP cables, not TB. Thunderbolt isn't even in play here at all.


Intel Iris Graphics can't drive two full DP v1.2 sources. Not sure if the Nvidia mobile ones do. Minus driving > 4K displays ( or several 4K ones ) there isn't a huge need to. One full DP v1.2 source can drive multiple displays.

Ah, well it was a little too soon to hope for DP 1.3. Oh well. I wonder what Apple will do for an external display. I doubt they would do a 2 cable solution, so we probably have to wait another generation for a 5k display.

 

[Zarniwoop]

Ah, well it was a little too soon to hope for DP 1.3. Oh well. I wonder what Apple will do for an external display. I doubt they would do a 2 cable solution, so we probably have to wait another generation for a 5k display.

There is a solution. Apple could sell eGPU-boxes with Thunderbolt 2 connection for those who need 5k display. And the best part would be that it incorporates discrete GPU. Even Mac Mini could be connected to 5k display.. and become a game machine.

eGPU is already possible to add when using external display, but you have to build it yourself. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiBFe3yc2Xk

Update: even crazier idea would be that Apple puts the GPU inside external 5k display...

 

[IanKelleigh]

This sounds disappointing. I was waiting and hoping for this hardware update to replace my 2009 MBP.

But maybe it sounds like I should wait for next year to refresh? I know that "waiting" for the next update is just a never ending endeavor, but from what I'm reading is that this GPU is already 2 years old?

 

[MacDevMike]

There is a solution. Apple could sell eGPU-boxes with Thunderbolt 2 connection for those who need 5k display. And the best part would be that it incorporates discrete GPU. Even Mac Mini could be connected to 5k display.. and become a game machine.

eGPU is already possible to add when using external display, but you have to build it yourself. Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uiBFe3yc2Xk

Update: even crazier idea would be that Apple puts the GPU inside external 5k display...

Its interesting that you posted this. I knew about Alienware doing something similar with their Graphics Amplifier, but until earlier this morning I didn't know that their was an external thunderbolt 2 box available from Amazon that would allow this. I am doing a little more research on it, as its pretty interesting. But then, Im a tinkerer.

 

[Andropov]

I once considered buying a eGPU setup instead of upgrading my 2011 iMac, but as the process of connecting the eGPU is far from being 'plug and play' I was worried that a OS update would leave me with a useless setup.

So if any of you take the eGPU choice let me know how does it behave in the long term

The Alienware's Graphics Amplifier mentioned above works out of the box, it's a shame that Apple hasn't done the same and has chosen to obstruct this option instead of positioning it as one of the benefits of Thunderbolt (something that also USB would never be able to do).

 

[puelocesar]

real world results for the new macbook:
http://rss2twi.com/link/Reddit_Apple/?post_id=10266179

if he is telling the truth, 25-30 fps on Witcher 3 on mid-high settings seems nice for a macbook (not a gaming focused machine)

 

[Andropov]

real world results for the new macbook:
http://rss2twi.com/link/Reddit_Apple/?post_id=10266179

if he is telling the truth, 25-30 fps on Witcher 3 on mid-high settings seems nice for a macbook (not a gaming focused machine)

50-55 fps at 1280x800 at ULTRA at The Witcher 3 seems pretty good to me (I'd probably choose the 1440x900 resolution as it is 1/4 the true resolution of the screen though). I was worried that the latest games wouldn't be playable at all.

Waiting for a GTA V benchmark!