Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Apple dropped legacy ports faster than everyone else back in 1998 when they released the iMac with no floppy and only USB-A ports. They got a lot of flak but were validated in the end.

That's just historical revisionism.

They dropped standards that were still in mainstream use. It caused a huge amount of trouble for the majority of users. People used workarounds like adapters and external drivers. Removing the floppy and serial/parallel ports were horrible mistakes. The fact that several years later the floppy and serial/parallel port did become obsolete certainly doesn't validate Apple's mistake.

By your logic, Apple should remove the USB-C ports. Someday they will become obsolete and Apple will be vindicated.

By your logic, Apple should removing the charging port from the iPhone 8 (without adding wireless charging). Wired charging is old-school technology and in the not-too-distant future it will be completely replaced by wireless charging. The fact that the iPhone 8 will literally be bricked by design doesn't matter because Apple will soon be vindicated when we realize how primitive wired charging was.

By your logic, Apple should remove the screens from iPads and iPhones. Someday we'll have virtual displays directly beamed into our occipital lobes and Apple will be vindicated.

The only difference between Apple removing the floppy and any of those other scenarios when we're having this conversation. They are all idiotic moves to do too soon.
[doublepost=1491282032][/doublepost]
Don't underestimate the benefits USB-C.

Oh, I didn't realize that including USB-C meant my machine couldn't have a USB-A port. Thanks for clearing that up.

**Looks at side of LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PC LAPTOP OVER $600 CURRENTLY ON THE MARKET**. Well clearly it's just Apple that is unable to produce a functional computer in 2017.
 
Get an HP or Dell laptops, tons of them have both USB-A and TB3 and USB-C and all other ports ;)

Well, yes, that's the problem. Don't think I'm not considering it (along with many other Mac users who don't like the current options).

I've actually just had a brief dalliance with a MS Surface Book - cut short when it failed after only a few weeks so I returned it - and although Windows 10 has its annoyances, I had no serious problems working with it. The SB had USB-A 3.0, DisplayPort and a magnetic power/docking port, and integrated perfectly with my existing peripherals, even my Apple 27" LED Cinema display, which would need a double-dongle kludge to connect to a new MBP. The dock was an optional luxury for my home desktop - not needed at work or on the road (unlike the non-TB MBP which would need docks at home and work). Sadly, the failure broke my confidence in the reliability of the detachable tablet arrangement so I bailed while I could get my money back (I was able to check out the potential of the touchscreen and pen for a project I'm working on, so, mission partly accomplished).

However, there are well-reputed PC laptops out there without the Surface Book's failure-prone gimmicks, or premium price-tag that offer a sensible selection of ports (plus, with Windows, you can run dual DisplayPort monitors from a single USB-C without an expensive/non-existent TB3 dock).

I'd much rather use MacOS, given the choice, but when Apple just isn't offering the hardware I need, even at what used to be Apple-level price-tags, I might not have a choice.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jeremiah256
What?
You think there isn't already a flood of cheap USB-C stuff from China?
I think it is a fact that China is flooding us with cheap USB stuff in general, not just USB-C. That's why I mentioned China.

I don't doubt that this will be great for mobile devices. The smaller connector is good for them, and much better than the horrible microUSB connector with its spooky quantum spin "rotate 3 times to plug in" thing.

Not so helpful with your MacBook Pro that needs 85W which it will only get from a handful of devices on the market if you have the correct cable with the invisible 'supports 85W charging' bit set in its ID chip.
Then you do not understand USB-C at all. It isn't about a smaller size but about creating a cable and connector that does many things, like being able to actually function as the single cable that transports all sorts of signals (data, power) and do so at very high speeds (40Gbps max currently but they've probably designed it for 100+ Gbps).

There is no invisible "supports 85W charging" bit at all, it is something that is clearly documented in the USB-C specifications from the USB-IF. They made it mandatory that the longer cables with higher data speeds need to have the ID chip as well as cables that allow charging to 100W (yes 100W, not 85W).

USB-C isn't designed for mobile devices but for all different kinds of devices. Their primary target seems to be notebooks (they can use the 100W power AND the 40Gbps data).

Oh, I didn't realize that including USB-C meant my machine couldn't have a USB-A port. Thanks for clearing that up.
That's because Apple didn't include USB-C at all; including USB-C would have been completely pointless because it is no more than a connector and a cable; it doesn't do anything. Apple put 2 or 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports on the device. Now this might seems like a difference in wording but it is in fact a very big and important difference to grasp.

It is not USB-C that prevents you from having USB-A ports on your MBP but Thunderbolt 3 as it only supports USB-C. You can't use any other connector with Thunderbolt 3 so that rules out USB-A. They could have used a separate USB controller but that means yet another chip that takes up space, power and resources such as a PCIe lane. Using any of the internal USB controllers of the CPU or Thunderbolt controller would probably make a similar kind of mess if it even is possible to do so. Since Thunderbolt 3 comes with an embedded USB controller it is rather silly to do something like this. You can easily do it with an adapter or simply use a different cable with the appropriate connectors on both end. At least from an engineering point of view.

So to summarise:
  1. The MBP doesn't have USB-C ports, it has Thunderbolt 3 ports,
  2. Thunderbolt 3 only uses USB-C, it isn't compatible with USB-A,
  3. Thus it is Thunderbolt 3 that prevents you from having your precious USB-A port.
 
and do so at very high speeds (40Gbps max currently but they've probably designed it for 100+ Gbps).

Well, 40Gbps over a max 0.5m passive cable, or longer "active" Thunderbolt cables which cost an arm and a leg and don't support USB 3 (just USB 2) or DisplayPort-over-USB-C (so don't get them mixed up with your regular USB-C cables)

There is no invisible "supports 85W charging" bit at all,

From Wikipedia:
All USB-C cables must support 3 A current (up to 60 W @20V); cables supporting high-power 5 A current (up to 100 W) must contain e-marker chips programmed to identify the cable as being 5A capable

Just to spell it out: 85W (needed by the MBP) is more than 60W so it needs cables with the e-marker chip with the '5A capable' bit (or flag, or parameter or whatever you want to call it) set. Apple's "USB-C charge cable" supports 85W but its a charge cable which only supports USB 2 (not 3) - or you could get the Belkin 0.5m Thunderbolt cable which does support 40Gbps TB3 and USB-C but only charges at 60W, or the Belkin 2m thunderbolt cable (max 60W, USB2 only) or the cable that comes with the LG 5k display which presumably supports 100W (since the display advertises 85W charging)... but don't mix it up with the cable for the LG 4k display because that only supports 60W and isn't a thunderbolt cable, because the way the 4k display works (USB-C/DisplayPort alt mode) is completely different to the 5k (2 DisplayPort channels tunnelled over a Thunderbolt link) so neither cable will drive the other display (although a 0.5m passive Thunderbolt 3 cable might).

So, yeah, a single cable for everything... sorry, but, between them, the USB Consortium and Intel have already wrecked that dream.

It is not USB-C that prevents you from having USB-A ports on your MBP but Thunderbolt 3 as it only supports USB-C.

Complete. Utter. Nonsense.

Or are machines like the Dell XPS 13, the HP Spectre 3560, the Asus Transformer Pro, Razer Blade Stealth and many of the other machines listed here that claim to have both USB A ports and Thunderbolt 3 part of some great fake news conspiracy? The standard intel processor chipset provided a bunch of USB 2 and USB 3 ports as standard. A lot of PC motherboards are turning up with 1xTB3 and 1 x red USB A 3.1gen2 socket (which I believe is one way of configuring the TB controller chip).

Now, whether you could have four TB3 ports and still have enough i/o bandwidth to provide a couple of USB3.1 ports is a question, but who asked for four of the things - particularly at the expense of anything else? The 13" can't drive all of those at 40Gbps anyway even if the thermally-throttled CPU could deal with all that data. 2 x TB3 + 2 x USB 3 (A) would have been a much more convenient setup for many people - especially if (1) there was still a magsafe so you didn't "waste" a TB3 port on power unless you wanted to use a TB3 dock with charging and (2) they hadn't gimped the alt-mode displayport MST support so you couldn't drive 2 displayport monitors off one port without an expensive TB3 hub.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jeremiah256
That's just historical revisionism.

They dropped standards that were still in mainstream use. It caused a huge amount of trouble for the majority of users. People used workarounds like adapters and external drivers. Removing the floppy and serial/parallel ports were horrible mistakes. The fact that several years later the floppy and serial/parallel port did become obsolete certainly doesn't validate Apple's mistake.

By your logic, Apple should remove the USB-C ports. Someday they will become obsolete and Apple will be vindicated.

By your logic, Apple should removing the charging port from the iPhone 8 (without adding wireless charging). Wired charging is old-school technology and in the not-too-distant future it will be completely replaced by wireless charging. The fact that the iPhone 8 will literally be bricked by design doesn't matter because Apple will soon be vindicated when we realize how primitive wired charging was.

By your logic, Apple should remove the screens from iPads and iPhones. Someday we'll have virtual displays directly beamed into our occipital lobes and Apple will be vindicated.

The only difference between Apple removing the floppy and any of those other scenarios when we're having this conversation. They are all idiotic moves to do too soon.
[doublepost=1491282032][/doublepost]

Oh, I didn't realize that including USB-C meant my machine couldn't have a USB-A port. Thanks for clearing that up.

**Looks at side of LITERALLY EVERY SINGLE PC LAPTOP OVER $600 CURRENTLY ON THE MARKET**. Well clearly it's just Apple that is unable to produce a functional computer in 2017.
It was about time to drop the floppy drive in 1998. They were mostly useless except for the smallest of files, and CDs had already become mainstream.

Your USB-C analogy makes no sense since it is the most up-to-date port available, and is backward compatible with every port Apple removed using an adapter.

It's because of your logic that VGA has hung around for so long. It isn't natively supported by any recent Intel chipset, but because PC makers continue to include it, we still see outdated technology.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saturn007
but don't mix it up with the cable for the LG 4k display because that only supports 60W and isn't a thunderbolt cable, because the way the 4k display works (USB-C/DisplayPort alt mode) is completely different to the 5k (2 DisplayPort channels tunnelled over a Thunderbolt link) so neither cable will drive the other display (although a 0.5m passive Thunderbolt 3 cable might).
The standard is for both USB and Thunderbolt 3 USB-C cables. Currently nearly all of the USB-C cabling (be it for USB, be it for Thunderbolt 3) support 60W max. The cable included with the LG 5k display and those from CalDigit are currently the only exceptions as they support up to 100W.

See for more info, page 27 of the following pdf document: Universal Serial Bus Type-C Cable and Connector Specification (rev 1.2).

So, yeah, a single cable for everything... sorry, but, between them, the USB Consortium and Intel have already wrecked that dream.
They didn't. Take a closer look.

Or are machines like the Dell XPS 13, the HP Spectre 3560, the Asus Transformer Pro, Razer Blade Stealth and many of the other machines listed here that claim to have both USB A ports and Thunderbolt 3 part of some great fake news conspiracy? The standard intel processor chipset provided a bunch of USB 2 and USB 3 ports as standard.
Nope, they are running into the very same issue. The USB-C ports (or port because mostly it is only 1 port) on their machines are linked to the Thunderbolt 3 controller or, like the MacBook, to the USB controller in the CPU (which means there is no Thunderbolt 3 on the machine).

They simply made a different choice than Apple did and used just 1 Thunderbolt 3 controller and only 1 port of that controller. Everything else goes through other ports. They have simply distributed the available controllers and PCIe lanes differently as they found the compromises to be acceptable and because they simply had far more PCIe lanes to use.

You are forgetting the issue with the Thunderbolt 3 ports on the righthand side of the 13" MBP Touch Bar. These are slower than the left ones due to insufficient PCIe lanes.

A lot of PC motherboards are turning up with 1xTB3 and 1 x red USB A 3.1gen2 socket (which I believe is one way of configuring the TB controller chip).
They are more likely to be using a separate USB 3.1 Gen 2 controller (although you can indeed do this with the TB controller by configuring 1 port for TB and the other for USB) and they can since they are big ATX motherboards where you have far more space for all these things than on one for a notebook.

Now, whether you could have four TB3 ports and still have enough i/o bandwidth to provide a couple of USB3.1 ports is a question, but who asked for four of the things - particularly at the expense of anything else?
The pros did because now they get 4x 40Gbps and they can now choose their own ports instead of Apple choosing it for them. All ports now do USB, ethernet, Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, DVI/HDMI, VGA and power. Before you could only do USB or Thunderbolt + DisplayPort, DVI/HDMI and VGA or ethernet or power. Basically if you used more than 2 USB devices you had to bring a hub because you could only connect 2 of them.

The 13" can't drive all of those at 40Gbps anyway even if the thermally-throttled CPU could deal with all that data.
Not only do the specs at ark.intel.com tell a rather different story so do experiences by users on this forum. The above is simply complete and utter nonsense.

2 x TB3 + 2 x USB 3 (A) would have been a much more convenient setup for many people - especially if (1) there was still a magsafe so you didn't "waste" a TB3 port on power unless you wanted to use a TB3 dock with charging and (2) they hadn't gimped the alt-mode displayport MST support so you couldn't drive 2 displayport monitors off one port without an expensive TB3 hub.
The exact same thing can be said about the current setup: for many people the 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports is a much more convenient setup because it lacks the limitations you have with the 2 Thunderbolt 3, 2 USB-A ports and 1 Mag Safe. Basically it is 4 ports vs 2+2+1 (in case you haven't realised it: because you cannot use all the ports for the same thing you cannot add them up; with Thunderbolt 3 you can, hence the difference).

The part about DisplayPort is complete and utter nonsense. MST is required for the LG 5k display to work and this display has 1 Thunderbolt 3 port on it and thus completely invalidates your point. This display shows that you can run an MST display from 1 port. The feature you mean is called DisplayPort daisy chaining and it is also fully supported by Thunderbolt 3 (but it is not a Thunderbolt thing, it is part of the DisplayPort standard). The display/graphical driver in macOS is the one to blame here because this one doesn't support DisplayPort daisy chaining. And even that isn't exactly correct because the second display will work. The issue here is that the second display will be a mirror of the first. You cannot extend your desktop to that second display. Someone reviewing the HP TB3 dock found the same thing. This has been known every since DisplayPort 1.2 came to market!

With Thunderbolt supporting daisy chaining as well you can use that to connect a max of 6 devices to 1 port where a display can be put at the end if it doesn't support Thunderbolt but DisplayPort (or DVI/HDMI or VGA) instead. With 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports you actually have 4 ports available. With the GPU in the 15" model you can actually drive 6 displays (incl. the internal display so when using that you only have 5 left), the iGPU can't. Or you can use a dock (a hub is something rather different) to inject another set of 2 DisplayPort streams.

TL;DR: you need to work on your reading comprehension and start learning about Thunderbolt 3 as your knowledge is extremely limited. You seem to be basing everything on hear-say instead of the official documentation and the experiences by people on this forum as well as those in others aimed at eGPUs.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: lobo1978
You can get thunderbolt 3 docks or hubs that can drive dual 4k monitors, from Kensington, Caldigit, elgato, and probably some others. Generally there is an unpowered or underpowered dock in the $200ish range, and a powered dock in the $300ish range. If you are balking at the extra money for the powered version, consider that the 87W charging block is $79, a USB-c charging cable is $19, and the power expansion cable is $19, for a total of $117, so you may as well get the powered version and forgo an additional charging cable and save yourself a port.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.