There's a lot of lip service in the comments defending Apple. But tile has been replaced by a closed system Apple product in a legally dubious way. I'm not comfortable with another company doing the same and don't believe anyone should support this action just because you like the products. There's a similar issue with 3rd party repair and right to repair. Competition disappears if action like this are allowed to continue and that's anti-capitalism and anti-competitive.
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Tile CEO: 'We Welcome Competition From Apple, But We Think It Needs to Be Fair'
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Maybe you don’t know, but Apple LITERALLY allowed companies to sell products that ran the Macintosh operating system, but restricted it ONLY to the following companies. (You won’t see Dell or Samsung on this list) Not only that, once Apple was no longer interested in this program? Ended it, canceled their licenses and they could no longer produce devices that ran the later versions of the OS.
Again, this is how business is done, those companies built products based on an agreement between them and Apple and, once those rules changed, that was it. This isn’t new at all.
Akia
APS Technology
Bandai
Centralen Norrland
Centro HL
ComJet
Computer Warehouse
DayStar Digital
DynaTec Memory Systems GmbH
Gravis Computervertriebsgesellschaft mbH
International Computer
Katz Media
Mactell
MacWay
MacWorks
Marathon Computer, Inc.
Maxxboxx Datasystems
Motorola Computer Group
Pioneer Corporation
PIOS Computer AG
PotzBits
Power Dome
Power Computing Corporation
PowerEx
PowerTools
Radius
RedBox
Shaye
Storm
Tatung Company
UMAX Technologies / Supermac
Vertegri
VisionPower
They could have attempted to do it with Android instead if iOS was too restrictive for them. It would have equally as much success as FindMy in terms of user base.
The potential for Tile's inclusion into devices was exponential. But IMHO they failed completely at marketing the product outside of the inclusion into expensive goods and their own trackers.
They appear to have done little in 8 years to garner much success. Only 26 million devices in ... probably 1/2 that for the number of actual users then subtract users that have left the network due to broken/battery dead.
Basically they dropped the ball.
One could argue that Apple has actually created a competitive market by allowing other companies use the FindMy service. Depending on your definition of the market as hardware or service. They could have just as easily closed their network to Airtag's entirely and be dammed with everyone else.
How open is the Tile network ?
But what are we arguing about. What is the product ? The network or the hardware ?
If ONLY the FindMy network had been released, would that make everyone happier ? I betcha the answer is "Nope".
When Blackberry was replaced by the iPhone, was that ok? I mean, Apple didn’t allow RIM to sell iPhones, so that was pretty anti-competitive. Should Apple, with the first iPhone, have been forced to allow Blackberry, Palm and Microsoft to sell iPhones or produce iOS devices?
It has not been replaced. Plus the system that Apple launched is not closed, it's open to competitors.
So, what's your point? That Apple should not be allowed to launch a superior product, even when opening the service backing it, just because an existing product can not compete?
What the hell are they trying to say? I've been using Tile (as a separate device and built into my Keysmart) on my iPhone since then and it hasn't been "more difficult". If anything, the new pop-ups in the Tile app asking me to pay for premium services has been the only negative experience I had with my Tile.
Here's the problem: Tile forces you to use a separate app and pay a yearly subscription fee to really make the Tile tags actually work effectively.
You are missing my point, people have no problem sitting here being Armchair critics about Tile, making blanket statements of "they should have innovated more", with no logical answer to what they could have done given the HW/SW access Apple provided. Saying only people at Tile know what they could have done better isn't accurate, given how often people on these forums post suggestions/obvious oversights for current apple products. Your comment about the ipad release doesn't make sense, since you are trying to compare Tile (which has been in the market for years) against a brand new product release.
Apple does this all the time, they release a new product that takes advantage of hw/sw integration that is only available to them, because obviously anyone other than Apple with this information is a security/privacy threat.
Maybe Tile should develop a phone and sell a few billion of them, then they could compete
Just after Apple announced its AirTags, Tile CEO CJ Prober relayed his concerns about competing with Apple in the tracking space, and said that Tile would ask Congress to investigate Apple's business practices specific to Find My and item trackers.
Prober this week did an interview with Bloomberg, where he further expanded on Tile's complaints about Apple and why he feels that Tile is disadvantaged on Apple's platform. Prober said that while Tile "welcomes competition," he doesn't feel that Apple is being fair.Prober claims that when Apple "launched" Find My in 2019, there were changes to iOS that made it harder for Tile to operate. Apple did release a unified Find My app in 2019, but has long had Find My iPhone and Find My Mac apps for devices.Prober is talking about changes that Apple made to location services permissions. For privacy purposes, Apple stopped making it easy for apps to get permanent access to a user's location. Apps in iOS 13 were not initially allowed to present an "Always Allow" option when requesting location access, and the feature had to be enabled in the Settings app. Apple also started sending regular reminders to customers letting them know their location was being used.
Tile was not happy with these privacy changes and that privacy tweak set Tile against Apple, with Tile in 2019 calling on Congress to "level the playing field."
Prober said that Apple has now launched a Tile competitor that has access to platform capabilities that Tile cannot access, referencing seamless activation and Ultra Wideband technology.Apple has, in fact, launched the Find My network that gives third-party accessories some of the same access that AirTags have, and Find My network accessories will be able to access the U1 chip in the iPhone 11 and 12 models much like the AirTags, but Tile won't be able to use the Find My network unless it abandons its own app and infrastructure, which it is likely unwilling to do.
Prober said that Tile has been "seeking to access" the U1 chip since its introduction in the iPhone, and has been denied.
It's too early to tell whether Tile's sales will be impacted by AirTag, but Prober says that Tile is "well-positioned" with a "super differentiated product" that's available across platform and in many form factors. He suggested Tile has several benefits over AirTags.According to Prober, Apple could take the advantages that it has on its platform and make them available to everyone for a more level competitive playing field. He called for legislation to allow for innovation and competition. "We should be competing fairly and no excessive taxes on developers," he said.
Prober's full interview can be watched over at Bloomberg.
Article Link: Tile CEO: 'We Welcome Competition From Apple, But We Think It Needs to Be Fair'
That "massive market" outside of the Apple ecosystem may not be all that you hype it to be.
I found an article on appleinsider that said research firm sensor tower reported that the Apple App Store had $72.3 billion in revenue vs. Google Play which had $38.6 billion.
Between that and the fact that Andriod phones are typically cheaper than iPhones, is the Android market really all that appealing?
I can understand that folks don’t like Apple and want to see a company come along to beat them. But in order to beat Apple, they have to make an effort to.. you know, beat Apple. Make better products, create NEW products, innovate in ways Apple can’t, delight customers that hate Apple! You can make a VERY good business from that alone, why is no one doing it? Because it’s impossible? Really? Imagine what the world would be like today if Apple had tried to force Motorola to make a phone for them INSTEAD of creating something different?
However, forcing a company to do something against their business interest is pretty much a non-starter. That would include forcing Amazon to provide all their services for free, that would include forcing Firestone to give you 4 dollars for every free tire you take from them. That would include forcing Apple to sell their iPhones for a $10,000 minimum to give other companies a chance to beat them (for some here, it seems like they’re sure that it would take nothing less than that to beat Apple).
However, forcing a company to do something against their business interest is pretty much a non-starter. That would include forcing Amazon to provide all their services for free, that would include forcing Firestone to give you 4 dollars for every free tire you take from them. That would include forcing Apple to sell their iPhones for a $10,000 minimum to give other companies a chance to beat them (for some here, it seems like they’re sure that it would take nothing less than that to beat Apple).
Well, people DO have experience with what Tile has done in the past. They bought the products, they used the services, some found them lacking... it appears that many found them lacking, actually. The exact same things can be said about the first iPhone. It couldn’t even do some things that other phones had been doing for YEARS. The difference between Apple and Tile appears to be that Apple tried doing things differently, made an effort to improve/to be better, came up with new features, improved their support structure, all the things you’d expect a company trying to be successful to do.
Also, to give you an idea of the quality of product ideas here, you HAVE to know that one reason folks are posting on these forums COULD be because their ideas aren’t worth millions or trillions of dollars, right? (Well, I know there’s at least one that has generated at least that much in the past, they know who they are, but they’re the exception
) I mean, if my ideas about Apple, Tile or ANYONE’s products had actual real value to those companies, I can guarantee you I wouldn’t be typing this right here, right now. I’d be connecting my Mac Mini Tower Pro to my Apple Wireless access point, surfing the web on my inexpensive Apple Monitor.Well, people DO have experience with what Tile has done in the past. They bought the products, they used the services, some found them lacking... it appears that many found them lacking, actually. The exact same things can be said about the first iPhone. It couldn’t even do some things that other phones had been doing for YEARS. The difference between Apple and Tile appears to be that Apple tried doing things differently, made an effort to improve/to be better, came up with new features, improved their support structure, all the things you’d expect a company trying to be successful to do.
Also, to give you an idea of the quality of product ideas here, you HAVE to know that one reason folks are posting on these forums COULD be because their ideas aren’t worth millions or trillions of dollars, right? (Well, I know there’s at least one that has generated at least that much in the past, they know who they are, but they’re the exception
FWIW, I disagree with almost everything in this comment, but you clearly aren't going to change my mind, and I won't change yours. I appreciate the discussion though!
Those dollar differences are primarily because it’s FAR easier to pirate Android games than iPhone games (and that’s primarily due to the easy ability to side load… maybe Apple’s got a point here). In interview after interview, developers have indicated this.
And I’m not saying the Android market is appealing. I’m saying there’s a LOT of people, not just a lot, a LOT of a lot, like 80% of all the people that have phones, aren’t in the Apple ecosystem. They’re essentially free and unfettered and can buy whatever phone suits their fancy. That is a huge ripe market for someone to come up with a product that’s good enough, get wide adoption for a low price, use the money from that effort to introduce better products, still for an affordable price, roll THAT money back into the company, focus on making the next big thing, then release that. Maybe a bit expensive, but folks will have had so many years of good experiences with the other products, they’ll at least give it a try…. (and yes, that’s quite literally the story of iPod to iPhone)
I find it quite alarming that, even though Apple showed, in reality, over the last few years, how you enter, compete, and carve out a reasonable profit in already entrenched industries, that no one’s just LOOKED at that and copied it. Are there no schools talking about how Apple got to be where they are?
I’m actually fairly certain that if Tile at LEAST took the support of their product as seriously as Apple took the support of theirs, this would be a completely different story for them. But, again, I’m typing that here and I can guarantee you that if my product ideas were worth their weight in gold, I’d have more entertaining ways to spend my time.
The more I ponder CEO Prober's press offensive against Apple, the more convinced I become that the primary audience for this nonsense is his shareholders (apparently a handful of private equity firms). What is most telling is the following statement:
So they are well-positioned with a super-differentiated product, but are getting clobbered by unfair competition from Apple? Sorry, can't be both, so which is it, Mr. Prober?
He must know full well that this will get nowhere with the FTC; Apple's market position is not strong enough to warrant intervention under market dominance rules (though on the other hand, I wouldn't put anything past the Europeans). More likely, he is worried about his job. He just got his ass handed to him by Apple, and does not appear to yet have an answer to their market entry besides lawyering up.
So they are well-positioned with a super-differentiated product, but are getting clobbered by unfair competition from Apple? Sorry, can't be both, so which is it, Mr. Prober?
He must know full well that this will get nowhere with the FTC; Apple's market position is not strong enough to warrant intervention under market dominance rules (though on the other hand, I wouldn't put anything past the Europeans). More likely, he is worried about his job. He just got his ass handed to him by Apple, and does not appear to yet have an answer to their market entry besides lawyering up.
Just had a thought. The iPod was released on October 23, 2001. That’s 19 years ago. That means there are adults who’s earliest memories are of folks owning or knowing a lot about at least the iPod. In their world, Apple has always been ascendant and it’s likely hard for them to consider that anyone would ever be in a position to best their products. Just like folks that only knew Nintendo as the number 1 gaming system or IE being the browser everyone coded for or IBM’s big iron as the only name in town.
When I look at it like that, there’s nothing you can say that can inform them about a world where things are only big for awhile… they’d just have to live it. Just like everyone before them.
By the way, did NOT intend to make anyone feel old
When I look at it like that, there’s nothing you can say that can inform them about a world where things are only big for awhile… they’d just have to live it. Just like everyone before them.
By the way, did NOT intend to make anyone feel old
I'm not sure what the argument here is. That anti-competitive behavior is happening or that we have to like it? No doubt, anti-competitive behavior is happening.
No where im defending tile for their lawsuit. Apples game plan is if u want to use our network. You can only use our app. Tile will eventually come out with a crimple device like chipolo is doing. It’s a lose lose for 3rd party trackers. They taking a huge lost of features just to be in the find my app. Airtag $29 vs 3rd party $29 with lost features. Most people will pick airtags 9/10 times. Competition is good. I hope it makes apple add more features to the airtags. Right now im a bit disappointed with airtag features. Tile or chipolo has more features and different form factors.
Again, what's weird is thinking that Apple can and should "leverage" the iphone install base and prevent others from doing so because Apple sold us the phones and controls the software on it. Providing services to your customers isn't incongruent with anti-competitive behavior. In fact, that's what companies are doing because if they do anti-competitive things without a user-facing argument, they would've lost a court battle immediately.
How is any of this different than the internet explorer case that MSFT lost in the 90s?
How is any of this different than the internet explorer case that MSFT lost in the 90s?
There’s no argument. This is simply the way the world works. Whether someone likes it or not doesn’t factor into it. And, I guess, anticompetitive is not the same as “I don’t like what they’re doing”.
Anticompetitive Practices
The FTC takes action to stop and prevent unfair business practices that are likely to reduce competition and lead to higher prices, reduced quality or levels of service, or less innovation.
Last year, when folks kept mentioning “that case MSFT lost”, I googled it and read up on it. And, it was easy to see how it was different. I’d suggest you look it up, replace MSFT in what you find with “Apple” and replace Netscape with “Tile” and then see for yourself how different that is from what’s being described here.
It’s not so much that Apple should, but more that they don’t have to open up their “find my” network to their competitors at all.
What’s the basis for this again?
OK, lets see Microsoft withdraw their Windows OS from the market and demand $10 Million for each license. Lets the effect. Police stations, banks, airports, sea ports, businesses, schools, and a lot more will stop functioning.
Google servers went down for few hours and people went nuts.