Tim Cook and Craig Federighi to Testify in Apple vs. Epic Battle

The point here is Microsoft and Sony have exactly the same closed ecosystem. Apple ( and sony etc ) can do exactly what they want as they created the hardware and platform.

As an old School developer - you’d be beaming if you made 30% profit! Let alone 70% that apple gives ( now 85%!! for smaller devs ) the costs of cd/dvd copying / marketing and retail cuts..

Analogy Alert: Apple opens a mall make it really successful and developers open up shops in said mall and make a load of money - paying apple for utility costs and rent in the mall. Epic comes along and demands to be allowed to open a market in the mall for free.

This is like someone demanding to make Tesla’s screen open source.

Forget Epic... off they pop and sell their $10 skins to kids and lets see them develop a phone and the infrastructure.
The playstation and xbox are not at all the same. Any app on those consoles can be acquired by other means and viewed on the same screen, ie the TV. if you can't play a game on one system you have the option of purchasing it on another console or system. Also gaming consoles are not deemed as essential items by the government like a Phone or internet is so they don't tend to regulate them the same way and neither should anyone since they are a comfort item and as I said before there a multple ways of acquiring apps or games if one is not on a certain platform. Nothing is stopping a person with an xbox to buy a playstation because of that ONE game or app they wanted. Something is stopping people from buying certain apps or games when they purchase an android and try to get content that is exclsive from apple
 
What are these “questionable” practices you’re talking about? Please enlighten me.

Is it the App Store fees? Nope, can’t be because every other “store” charged the same 30%.

Favoring their own apps in the App Store? Nope, those algorithms changed years ago.

Only one App Store allowed on the iPhone? That one I’ll admit is arguable but IMO they have a right to lock down and protect their own product. A true monopoly would be if there weren’t any other way to get a company’s app on a smartphone besides through Apple. There’s Android for that. Windows used to be a third option but they failed to innovate and died.
Everyone is so fixated on everyone else also having 30% of profit just like Apple. That is not the problem. The problem is EVERYONE else other than Apple allows people other ways to purchase the content or sideload the content. The Xbox and PlayStation don't have a problem of requiring 30% profit on apps because 99% of those apps can also be got from playstation, the web, PC or mac programs hooked up to a TV etc.

Then there's the soldering and gluing hardware components to make them harder and more expensive to fix to that people are more likely to buy a new one instead. And same for changing out simple generic components that are cheaply and abundantly available to 3rd party repairers, and swapping them for proprietary components that Apple makes completely unavailable for those 3rd party repairers to obtain, so what would have been a simple cheap repair is now an expensive one, making you buy a new device instead.

And the massive Apple tax on SSD and RAM upgrades. Plus, due to them both being soldered now except in Mac Pro's, you have to guess your future needs and pre-upgrade at an exorbitant cost.

Also things such as pretending to want to do business with a small company that has come up with a great new invention, but using those meetings to learn about the technology and make connections with key staff, and then either copying the tech and ruining the small company, or poaching their key staff, thus also ruining the small company.

And so on and so on. It's all spelled out again and again ad nauseam if you read MacRumors comments regularly, but you have to take your fanboi glasses off first to actually notice.
 
They banned Epic's dev account entirely, and that also distributes Unreal Engine. While uncool, it's exactly what the dev agreement says they'll do if you're caught circumventing the rules.
Read the court statements again.

Epic Games which has Fortnite is different from Epic Games International S.a.r.l. which has the Unreal Engine, which Apple tried to ban both. There are TWO developer accounts.

The judge didn't grant a restraining order against Apple for no reason.
 
Also gaming consoles are not deemed as essential items by the government like a Phone or internet
When I last checked the phone and internet aspect of an iOS device does not require you to download anything from the App Store in order to operate.

As such, paid app's should also be treated as a luxury items that fall outside the definition (and interference).
 
Read the court statements again.

Epic Games which has Fortnite is different from Epic Games International S.a.r.l. which has the Unreal Engine, which Apple tried to ban both. There are TWO developer accounts.

The judge didn't grant a restraining order against Apple for no reason.
You're right, I remembered wrong.
 
Hhhmmmm, Apple tries to limit Tim Cooks time on deposition, Apple does not want Craig Federighi to testify and tries to get Eric Neuenschwander instead. Apple tries to get documents withheld from Epic. This is not a sign that Apple is confident that it is going to win.
Nah. Any decent lawyer does anything at all to limit the scope of available evidence and to reduce the amount of time a client is available to offer testimony when on the defense. It reduces the possible avenues of attack for the plaintiff.
 
Nah. Any decent lawyer does anything at all to limit the scope of available evidence and to reduce the amount of time a client is available to offer testimony when on the defense. It reduces the possible avenues of attack for the plaintiff.
Or saying something they shouldn't no matter how well they are briefed going into court.
 
The point here is Microsoft and Sony have exactly the same closed ecosystem. Apple ( and sony etc ) can do exactly what they want as they created the hardware and platform.

As an old School developer - you’d be beaming if you made 30% profit! Let alone 70% that apple gives ( now 85%!! for smaller devs ) the costs of cd/dvd copying / marketing and retail cuts..

Analogy Alert: Apple opens a mall make it really successful and developers open up shops in said mall and make a load of money - paying apple for utility costs and rent in the mall. Epic comes along and demands to be allowed to open a market in the mall for free.

This is like someone demanding to make Tesla’s screen open source.

Forget Epic... off they pop and sell their $10 skins to kids and lets see them develop a phone and the infrastructure.
I really like this post, it makes a lot of sense. But I think we need to tweak the analogy to better fit the current scenario.

Apple opens a mall, and they make it really successful. Developers opens shops in the mall, and make a lot of money. But as part of being in the mall, they have to give the mall owner a slice of the profits in exchange for free rent. All good.

However, in the real world, there are other malls that consumers frequent on a regular basis. Think about it, how often do you visit Amazon and Target/Walmart? If McDonald's and Panera are located in two different strip malls/plazas across the street, would you only visit one and not the other? Or would you eat at both restaurants because you like their food, regardless of location? Most consumers don't tie themselves to one particular store or location - they move around. Point being, there are other venues retailers (aka developers) can go if they don't like the mall's terms and they can be confident that they will still get consumers.

This is not so on iOS. There is only one App Store on iOS, as far I can tell. If I want to buy apps from a different store on iOS, where can I go?

Now, some may say but wait! There are other devices, such as Android, Xbox, Playstation, Switch etc. that developers/consumers can use if they don't like Apple's terms. This is precisely Apple's argument. They view the hardware as the primary market. Epic's argument is the software, not the hardware, is the primary market. That is, within iOS itself, where can you go to buy apps?

One justification for Epic's claim is the high switching cost of hardware - how often do you buy a different smartphone when you go out to eat (aka switch locations)? I don't know about you, but I only buy a smartphone maybe once every two years. Definitely not as often as I eat out, and certainly not every day (although buying a new smartphone on a daily basis would be sweeeeet).

A counter argument would be that the other vendors charge the same rates as Apple, so Apple is being competitive, even within their own ecosystem. But as the lawyers pointed out, who set the rate for the industry (I'll give you a hint, their name rhymes with Snapple)? The counter claim doesn't hold water if the person arguing it created the situation to begin with (aka, I start a trend of shouting "Fire!" in a movie theatre. Everyone else does it. Just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it ok. And because I started it, really doesn't make it ok).

So you see, it really all depends on what you view as the market. As an economist, you will find very knowledgable and talented people within my field who are deeply divergent on this issue (indeed, both Apple and Epic have their own expert witnesses, saying very different things). Because at the end of the day, it's a judgement call. And that's why both parties are going to court. To get a judgement from YGR. It's up to her, and the appeals courts, and maybe even the US Supreme Court, to see how it all plays out. Neither side is right or wrong, it's just the way the world works out.

I suspect we'll see new legislation arise in the EU/US as governments seek to define the playing ground, making it less ambiguous and easier to judges to make their calls.

It will be fun to see how this all plays out.
 
Closed ecosystems should be discouraged and likely regulated. They are anti capitalist enterprises. If you do not allow competition you now have an oligopoly. It is incompatible with the essence of what we believe and support as a society (in the US at least).

And the same applies to all businesses and services. And still many markets are unfairly locked in by legacy corporations.
 
Everyone is so fixated on everyone else also having 30% of profit just like Apple. That is not the problem. The problem is EVERYONE else other than Apple allows people other ways to purchase the content or sideload the content. The Xbox and PlayStation don't have a problem of requiring 30% profit on apps because 99% of those apps can also be got from playstation, the web, PC or mac programs hooked up to a TV etc.

Then there's the soldering and gluing hardware components to make them harder and more expensive to fix to that people are more likely to buy a new one instead. And same for changing out simple generic components that are cheaply and abundantly available to 3rd party repairers, and swapping them for proprietary components that Apple makes completely unavailable for those 3rd party repairers to obtain, so what would have been a simple cheap repair is now an expensive one, making you buy a new device instead.

And the massive Apple tax on SSD and RAM upgrades. Plus, due to them both being soldered now except in Mac Pro's, you have to guess your future needs and pre-upgrade at an exorbitant cost.

Also things such as pretending to want to do business with a small company that has come up with a great new invention, but using those meetings to learn about the technology and make connections with key staff, and then either copying the tech and ruining the small company, or poaching their key staff, thus also ruining the small company.

And so on and so on. It's all spelled out again and again ad nauseam if you read MacRumors comments regularly, but you have to take your fanboi glasses off first to actually notice.
Nice, way to literally copy and paste @derekamoss’s post for the first part there 😂 your argument didn’t make sense though, to get on the marketplace/store in the first place (on Xbox, for example, since you brought them up) you have to pay that same fee. Of course the apps are available elsewhere. That’s what I’m saying. Apple’s App Store isn’t the only place to get Netflix or Microsoft Edge browser or many many other apps/games. That’s why the App Store is not a monopoly.

Gluing phones together is for waterproofing. Without that adhesive it would be much less water resistant than it is now. Every time someone opens the phone, the water resistance rating is reliant on how well that technician puts the phone back together. Hence why of course Apple would want to be the one to fix it. It’s so heavily in the spotlight that even if it was the fault of a third party repair place, the media would have an uproar claiming that Apple’s phones aren’t waterproof.

Soldering the storage and memory down, yeah it’s inconvenient but that’s the price that we all have to pay for people clamoring for thinner and lighter machines. (There are plenty of people out there, I know the MR forums are full of people with the opposite view). Doesn’t make it a monopoly.

Future proofing a device is a result of soldering it down, so it’s the same point.

Buying up companies? Do you know how many other companies do that? That’s sometimes the GOAL of a business owner. To get big enough to be noticed and then aim to be bought out to get an early retirement. Those people are then either brought over into the parent company or payed a significant chunk for compensation. It’s not the buyer’s responsibility to make sure that smaller company’s ceo takes care of his/her employees.
 
Bring it on, Epic.

Epic cannot win this fight and when they lose, Apple will use its legal victory as a symbol of its unassailable authority over their platform.

Epic’s reckless gamble has jeopardised the entire app economy.
 
I really like this post, it makes a lot of sense. But I think we need to tweak the analogy to better fit the current scenario.

Apple opens a mall, and they make it really successful. Developers opens shops in the mall, and make a lot of money. But as part of being in the mall, they have to give the mall owner a slice of the profits in exchange for free rent. All good.

However, in the real world, there are other malls that consumers frequent on a regular basis. Think about it, how often do you visit Amazon and Target/Walmart? If McDonald's and Panera are located in two different strip malls/plazas across the street, would you only visit one and not the other? Or would you eat at both restaurants because you like their food, regardless of location? Most consumers don't tie themselves to one particular store or location - they move around. Point being, there are other venues retailers (aka developers) can go if they don't like the mall's terms and they can be confident that they will still get consumers.

This is not so on iOS. There is only one App Store on iOS, as far I can tell. If I want to buy apps from a different store on iOS, where can I go?

Now, some may say but wait! There are other devices, such as Android, Xbox, Playstation, Switch etc. that developers/consumers can use if they don't like Apple's terms. This is precisely Apple's argument. They view the hardware as the primary market. Epic's argument is the software, not the hardware, is the primary market. That is, within iOS itself, where can you go to buy apps?

One justification for Epic's claim is the high switching cost of hardware - how often do you buy a different smartphone when you go out to eat (aka switch locations)? I don't know about you, but I only buy a smartphone maybe once every two years. Definitely not as often as I eat out, and certainly not every day (although buying a new smartphone on a daily basis would be sweeeeet).

A counter argument would be that the other vendors charge the same rates as Apple, so Apple is being competitive, even within their own ecosystem. But as the lawyers pointed out, who set the rate for the industry (I'll give you a hint, their name rhymes with Snapple)? The counter claim doesn't hold water if the person arguing it created the situation to begin with (aka, I start a trend of shouting "Fire!" in a movie theatre. Everyone else does it. Just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it ok. And because I started it, really doesn't make it ok).

So you see, it really all depends on what you view as the market. As an economist, you will find very knowledgable and talented people within my field who are deeply divergent on this issue (indeed, both Apple and Epic have their own expert witnesses, saying very different things). Because at the end of the day, it's a judgement call. And that's why both parties are going to court. To get a judgement from YGR. It's up to her, and the appeals courts, and maybe even the US Supreme Court, to see how it all plays out. Neither side is right or wrong, it's just the way the world works out.

I suspect we'll see new legislation arise in the EU/US as governments seek to define the playing ground, making it less ambiguous and easier to judges to make their calls.

It will be fun to see how this all plays out.

Except you totally forgot to mention that Android which is about 85% of the market is a completely viable option. You people go on like iOS is the only game in town when it actually represents only a minor portion of the smartphone market.

Bottom line is Apples store, Apples rules. That is why this will be an easy win.
 
Even though Epic is complaining on a high level, the attacks on Apple did indeed turn out to be positive for smaller developers. They reduced their commissions to 15 %.

I highly doubt that without these, Apple would have dropped the commissions.
The truth is they offer millions of Free Apps that they make nothing on. So, if the company has its own platform and the ability to market to and acquire their own clients, they don’t need to pay Apple anything. At the end of the day the market should decide.
If they didn’t need Apple’s marketing, engineering assistance and platform tools, they would not have to pay Apple one red cent and still be able to have a free app on IOS.

They for some reason believe they are entitled to have both for free. But at the same time they want to compete with Apple on their platform while cutting them out.
 
Even though Epic is complaining on a high level, the attacks on Apple did indeed turn out to be positive for smaller developers. They reduced their commissions to 15 %.

I highly doubt that without these, Apple would have dropped the commissions.
I think COVID was more of an impact. Small developers are less likely to survive through all of this. I know several businesses that closed up shop already.
 
Bring it on, Epic.

Epic cannot win this fight and when they lose, Apple will use its legal victory as a symbol of its unassailable authority over their platform.

Epic’s reckless gamble has jeopardised the entire app economy.
Right! Either they loose or everyone else looses. If Apple is forced to make the App Store unprofitable by their standards they will shift focus and it will linger in limbo until it is a shadow of its former self and they finally cancel it.
 
You seem to not understand the point of this case.
Breaking the rules of a ToS results in app being removed? Epic has nothing to stand on here. They broke the rules. If they kept their App on the store they still could have proceeded with this agenda while following the rules.
 
What are these “questionable” practices you’re talking about? Please enlighten me.

Is it the App Store fees? Nope, can’t be because every other “store” charged the same 30%.

Favoring their own apps in the App Store? Nope, those algorithms changed years ago.

Only one App Store allowed on the iPhone? That one I’ll admit is arguable but IMO they have a right to lock down and protect their own product. A true monopoly would be if there weren’t any other way to get a company’s app on a smartphone besides through Apple. There’s Android for that. Windows used to be a third option but they failed to innovate and died.
Since you mention true monopolies, PLEASE people can we put an end to all this Apple agenda and go over the ACTUAL harmful monopolies out there? Spectrum for one. I have 500 Mbps internet connection with Spectrum. I ONLY have a choice of Spectrum. And can you guess how many times it works properly? Especially when I am forced to work from home, its criminal. I am forced to use my phones hotspot which is way more reliable. Spectrum keeps coming out to repair their equipment, which is always outside and never a problem inside with my equipment.

They are so incompetent its ridiculous.
 
The playstation and xbox are not at all the same. Any app on those consoles can be acquired by other means and viewed on the same screen, ie the TV. if you can't play a game on one system you have the option of purchasing it on another console or system. Also gaming consoles are not deemed as essential items by the government like a Phone or internet is so they don't tend to regulate them the same way and neither should anyone since they are a comfort item and as I said before there a multple ways of acquiring apps or games if one is not on a certain platform. Nothing is stopping a person with an xbox to buy a playstation because of that ONE game or app they wanted. Something is stopping people from buying certain apps or games when they purchase an android and try to get content that is exclsive from apple
If you can't release your app on one system (iPhone) you can release on the other system (Android)

And an iPhone is NOT an essential device. Essential is phone and texting - get a Jitterbug. A smartphone is not essential.

I am FORCED to get Playstation if I want to play Spiderman. Guess what, its not available on Xbox!
 
This sounds like an awful lot amount of work... who pays for all of this? Who takes care of Tim’s and Craig’s hours salary hefty rates when reading, collecting, informing themselves and ultimately going through them for hours, days or weeks (aggregated) instead of driving and championing their tech company so that the next Big Sur update doesn’t become Catalina 2.0.

Why it bothers me: I’m just a normal worker from home and HATE with all my passion when I’m called for a meeting to talk about when is the next meeting... I could be doing my next series of tasks that are already time constrained (thanks producers) but instead I’m slammed in a virtual room to lose time while the deadlines didn’t take a pause. I can’t imagine then being called for something like this. Makes my skin crawl.
 
If you can't release your app on one system (iPhone) you can release on the other system (Android)

And an iPhone is NOT an essential device. Essential is phone and texting - get a Jitterbug. A smartphone is not essential.

I am FORCED to get Playstation if I want to play Spiderman. Guess what, its not available on Xbox!
Agreed many times fold with this. I honestly don’t get it. And all the fining and rules going around... sometimes it makes me think that the government and co are just seeing “$ trillions $” and want a piece of it.
In your exclusives titles example, what about Nintendo? Nintendo is all about things that can ONLY be bought and used on Nintendo consoles! And it’s their right... they did their Mario, Zelda, Pilotwings, Pikmins and infinite more universes, they can decide WHERE to put it for sale.

Why hasn’t Spectrum then be put under radar? Isn’t that fishy? Here in Canada the communications company is the exact same issue, and worse, they roll back bills related to ensuring competition as soon as one of the three main ones threats to get out of farther away places. Sick. But nope, “Apple stores only sells this to be used on Apple”... yeah, so does Nintendo, psn, Xbox, etc etc etc
 
Why hasn’t Spectrum then be put under radar?
This NEEDS to happen. I only have ONE choice where I live - Spectrum. I get 500Mbps down but I cannot reliably stream 4K content or even 1080p YouTube. Spectrum is always here in the neighborhood fixing stuff. We have had them out several times, want to take a guess how many times the issue was actually INSIDE the house? It is quite ridiculous. They are highly incompetent.
 
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