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Thank you for both proving my point.

We have a whole army of people here saying Apple is right, it should NEVER allow access to the private data within an iPhone, no matter what.
So there you are there ARE times when almost everyone would say yes, Apple must reveal secret data to help the authorities.

It all depends at what level and who it affects before you change your mind on this point.

Hence why I think it's silly all these people say no never, as it's just "play talk" in this scenario.

"My wife and child are going to be murdered, and if only we could get into the persons iPhone we would be able to find their location and save their lives"

But no, Tim is right, I stand by the man, my family must die.

Yeah right......

You are talking exception based scenarios vs. ethical behavior. Two differing items that becomes even more so when you look at Government, Corporate, and Personal levels. Stirring the pond bottom just clouds the issue.
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People are simply idiots or blind to the current world if they agree with the us government with this (and it doesn't effect just US citizens, it effects every single IOS device user world wide).

FACT - governments are corrupt as **** , they will use this back door no matter what you are accused of. People keep mentioning terrorists because that is how they are trying to spin it, it will only effect terrorist, in reality they will be able to access people's data no matter what the case, and judging from the Snowden leaks, they are certainly sly enough to collect the data of the innocent as well.
]

First it was child kidnapping, then slavery, now terrorist shootings. Wonder what the next "example" rolled out will be?
 
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I personally don't think this is Apple's decision to make. Need to follow the Constitution. But if there's a proper court order/warrant and Apple can comply why should they be able to refuse to comply?
Because it's their constitutional right. Due process. They have the right to appeal a ruling that they believe to unlawful and unconstitutional.

The constitution doesn't explicitly guarantee a right to privacy. It's alluded to in various amendments.
Privacy is recognized internationally as a fundamental human right. Without privacy there can be no liberty.

The question is, is what the FBI asking for an unreasonable searche and seizure? I don't think that's Apple's determination to make. That's up to elected representatives and/or the Supreme Court.
And it's precisely because Apple is choosing to fight this order that it will be decided by the Supreme Court and not the FBI and a random magistrate.

You put the safety of the United States and all it's people within in, below iPhone Privacy?
Yes.
 
I notice the media is showing some of the family members of those killed in California, saying they want the FBI to get any information off the iPhone one of the attacker's had on him when he was killed.
Do these people really feel today there, is any useful data to be found on this phone?
Does the FBI really feel they will find information, that would really be important to national security and safety on this phone?
 
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The extremists really did win after 9/11. They excelled in their goals.

Destroy freedom and liberty, turn the people and their government against each other.

I know it might be offensive to say, but holy f*** Americans, how colossally stupid are you collectively? Your political system and the way you vote is insane, your obsession with guns and extreme partisan politics while ignoring the real issues, it's staggering. You're throwing everything that you've worked for away.

How far has America fallen. Ask a German how valuable privacy and liberty are, giving it up is the first step towards a fascist society.

(Britain has never been free, someone just got sent to prison for posting something mean about refugees, but the US was always meant to be a truly free country).

Edit: just wanted to add, you've become such a paranoid country. Obsessed with this vague 'terrorist' bs, obsessed with your guns despite massive violence, massive government surveillance etc.. It's troubling. Like you've lost your way now that you don't have the Soviet Union to keep you busy and in check.

For me there is little to no threat from terrorism, it's just a convenient way for our governments to control us through fear and do extremely corrosive things like mass surveillance which is totally against what we stand for. This isn't China, this isn't Nazi Germany, this isn't the Soviet Union, wake up.

Paul Revere Syndrome (aka Israel Bissel or others).
"The terrorists are coming and we don't have all the data!"
Except Paul has been replaced by an FBI agent and a member of the AG's office.
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As i see it the FBI is just using this item with this one Apple iPhone, to obtain the rights to crack into all phones. They say this is a matter of national security, but i feel everyone knows anything found on this phone is so old, even if a terrorist phone number was on it, the person by now has retired or died.
Come on FBI own up to the real ression you'r making a federal case about forcing Apple to make software to hack this one phone. And quit saying we will only use it on the ONE iPhone nobody trusts you no matter what you say.

It's not about National Security. It's all about expansion of powers of a 200+ year old writ. This is the Government's latest "game".
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Silly question, and may have been asked- but here goes.

What happens "if" Apples defies a court order, and says no? Does someone go to jail for contempt?
How far can Apple take this by telling the Gov't to go pound sand, and is that actually probable?
As i see it the FBI is just using this item with this one Apple iPhone, to obtain the rights to crack into all phones. They say this is a matter of national security, but i feel everyone knows anything found on this phone is so old, even if a terrorist phone number was on it, the person by now has retired or died.
Come on FBI own up to the real ression you'r making a federal case about forcing Apple to make software to hack this one phone. And quit saying we will only use it on the ONE iPhone nobody trusts you no matter what you say.

This should help and is a great read.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...fight-the-doj-in-iphone-backdoor-crypto-case/
 
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The extremists really did win after 9/11. They excelled in their goals.

Destroy freedom and liberty, turn the people and their government against each other.

I know it might be offensive to say, but holy f*** Americans, how colossally stupid are you collectively? Your political system and the way you vote is insane, your obsession with guns and extreme partisan politics while ignoring the real issues, it's staggering. You're throwing everything that you've worked for away.

How far has America fallen. Ask a German how valuable privacy and liberty are, giving it up is the first step towards a fascist society.

(Britain has never been free, someone just got sent to prison for posting something mean about refugees, but the US was always meant to be a truly free country).

Edit: just wanted to add, you've become such a paranoid country. Obsessed with this vague 'terrorist' bs, obsessed with your guns despite massive violence, massive government surveillance etc.. It's troubling. Like you've lost your way now that you don't have the Soviet Union to keep you busy and in check.

For me there is little to no threat from terrorism, it's just a convenient way for our governments to control us through fear and do extremely corrosive things like mass surveillance which is totally against what we stand for. This isn't China, this isn't Nazi Germany, this isn't the Soviet Union, wake up.

Unfortunately, people tend not to learn from history. China, Nazi Germany, and Soviet Union were open about controlling their respective people's. US, Britain, and others are more sly in marketing and overblowing a perceived threat. Lies become truth if repeated often enough, and without discourse. follow the money, billions are being made by whom.
 
Well, when you're sure, come back with more concrete information. What you have is an expectation of privacy. A right is a legal privilege you get for being a citizen of the United States. People think they have all sorts of rights...the right to drive a car, etc. They aren't rights at all.

Here's some interesting reading about privacy and the constitution if you're at all interested.

Yep and what your saying is that your OK with leaving your backdoor partially open so the government can come in if they think they have a reason and a warrant. I for one, don't think the Constitution meant that, in spite of the bastardization that has occurred since it was drafted.

The Fifth Amendment protects you from offering knowledge that could incriminate yourself so you don't have to give the cops the password to your phone, so why would it be ok for them to just take the information anytime and in doing so leave your information exposed to hackers.
 
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I know you are referring to Spectrum, but I want to reaffirm this. The Master Key iOS is safe because it does not exist. Once it is written, it isn't safe. No matter who holds it.

Dale
So, assuming this is the case (I am no encryption expert, just a commentator), I see two solutions: 1. Change the way the encryption/decryption process works - think of a better way that does permit access securely. 2. Perhaps relatedly, make it so that the decrpyion key/process requires actual physical hardware, not just a number, and thus cannot be held copied or shared by anyone without building a perfect duplicate of the hardware decryptor - something that might in fact be impossible if it used physical attributes of the hardware.

My point is: there is a blanket statement made here that having a means to enable access implicitly means there is then a simple easy access backdoor to every device - potentially opening them up for exploit. I simply don't think it needs to be the case. Apple/tech industry need to get creative if they wish to maintain the apparent need for security and at the same time maintain their social responsibility.

Look at it this way: if everyone were able to commit a crime and not get caught (due to lack of access to incriminating evidence), do you think crime rates would be unaffected, go down, or increase?
 
Because it's their constitutional right. Due process. They have the right to appeal a ruling that they believe to unlawful and unconstitutional.


Privacy is recognized internationally as a fundamental human right. Without privacy there can be no liberty.


And it's precisely because Apple is choosing to fight this order that it will be decided by the Supreme Court and not the FBI and a random magistrate.


Yes.

Take a look at the US Attorney who fronted this for the FBI. Appointed by our current sitting President, worked as Deputy Mayor for Homeland Security... This "mess" is far more than the FBI's request. http://www.justice.gov/usao/biographies/decker

Lots and lots of tentacles in this pond.
 
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I notice the media is showing some of the family members of those killed in California, saying they want the FBI to get any information off the iPhone one of the attacker's had on him when he was killed.
Do these people really feel today there, is any useful data to be found on this phone?
Does the FBI really feel they will find information, that would really be important to national security and safety on this phone?
Of course not. The information if there is any, is long since dated, and dead end. Since the San Bernadino shooters went to great lengths to destroy two other cell phones and a hard drive, we are to believe, they left behind an iPhone with more than number to local pizza place.

The agenda is to get Apple to open up a back door. Only the 10% of iPhone still on iOS 7 can be accessed by Apple. Since advent of iOS 8 and now 9, even Apple has no way to access iPhone data. The previous back door hacks the NSA had on iPhone no longer works and government is going nuts about not being able to gather data.

This is a far bigger issue/battle than the San Bernadino iPhone. People and companies have pushed back on privacy since the Snowden and Assange revelation of government data collection.
 
While I appreciate Tim Cook taking a principled stand on this issue, I can't help but laugh at a liberal activist like Tim Cook seeing the very same big government he supports getting involved in every other aspect of our lives and businesses coming back to bite him in the ass. Sorry, Tim, but you can't have it both ways. You don't get to pick and choose what type of big government you get. You let it grow, and it will keep on growing. You give it power and it will take more and more.

So yeah, Tim, stick it to the man. I'm right there with you. But don't forget you're the one who bought the man his suit and sicced him on your enemies first.

The only way you stop government from these sorts of overreaching policies is to stop worshiping government as the solution to all our problems. We should rely on our individual liberties to protect us. Freedom of speech to challenge these muslim lunatics in a war of ideas before any of their children decide to act on their religious duty to kill nonbelievers. Freedom of religion so islamic reformers don't feel threatened by the west and throw in with the fundamentalists as their only choice. Freedom of the press to challenge government policies and show the world that there's a better way than the sort of propaganda most of the world must listen to. Freedom to assemble peaceably, so that violence is used only as a last resort. Freedom to bear arms so there's no more gun-free zones for bad guys to specifically target as an easy place to kill a lot of people.

Every terrorist attack that's been stopped has been stopped by regular people, acting swiftly when they saw a threat. Take a look at Flight 93, at the shoe bomber, at the Times Square bomber. By the time you're really in trouble, the government is not there to help you. You'd better act quick, in the interest of your own safety and the safety of others. Paris has some of the toughest anti-gun laws in the world, and look what happened. It's illegal to carry a gun in a county building in San Bernardino, and look what happened. The FBI is not going to be there on site the next time a muslim terrorist shoots up a building or walks into a crowd with a bomb in a backpack. The FBI is going to come in and investigate the carnage after the fact, and then push for more draconian laws that will make it harder for you to protect yourself from the very real threats you face. It might mean more anti-self-defense laws like Obama's "executive actions" in violation of the principle of separation of powers. It might mean more surveillance programs that make you vulnerable to hackers, whether it's a backdoor in your device or a massive government database that can never be truly secured. The government cannot guarantee that their own backdoors will never be used by other parties, but even if they could, all it takes is one black hat Snowden-type or a foreign government to gain access to information and leak it. You know how I know there's no aliens in Area 51? Because the government can never keep a secret about anything. They still want you to trust them to keep a backdoor secret, or keep secret everything they've learned from spying on you without a warrant.

The government can't and won't save you. Whether it's poor healthcare or terrorists, if you give the government power over you it will only make things worse and violate the rest of your liberties. They'll try to dictate your religious beliefs or they'll destroy your right to privacy. Then, like every government before it in the history of mankind, yours will become more and more corrupt, more and more oppressive, until there's a bloody civil war, revolution, or another government smells weakness and invades.

So Tim, while you're meeting with all your lawyers, to contend with a government headed by liberals like yourself, perhaps you should reconsider your support for such a government to begin with. The rest of you, at least in the States, consider carefully who you vote for in November. When it comes to making government big and making you grovel before it, I have a hard time differentiating the Democrats from most of the Republicans. Trump is no different from Clinton or Sanders in wanting a huge nanny state that will "protect" you with oppressive laws and endless spending of your pay check and your grandchildren's future. The only major party candidate left in the race who has made any effort to stop these mass warrantless surveillance programs and backdoor schemes is Ted Cruz, though he has not been the vocal critic of big government that Rand Paul has been.

If you can't stomach Ted Cruz, or he doesn't win the nomination of his party, then vote for the Libertarian Party candidate, whoever that ends up being. I for one will not vote for another candidate ever again who wants to expand government, however well-meaning they may be, or how important the issue is to me personally. I know that government cannot solve every issue, or even most issues well. You would think that a "community organizer" like our current president would recognize the necessity to deal with issues within a community, instead of in Washington.

The government has gotten out of hand. It's expanded so dramatically, and the executive branch has seized so much power, we need a reset. We need common sense approaches to the top priority issues we have, instead of thousands of terrible and oppressive approaches to issues that are better handled locally or by individuals.
 
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Apple really should just threaten to pack up and end all business operations in the US.

The government would come back crying and apologizing so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Apple's the 2nd largest company in the world. The US can't afford to lose them. It would cause huge economic problems.
 
Apple really should just threaten to pack up and end all business operations in the US.

The government would come back crying and apologizing so fast it wouldn't even be funny. Apple's the 2nd largest company in the world. The US can't afford to lose them. It would cause huge economic problems.

Would never happen. Where do you think Apple would go? Do you think any country would welcome a "capitalist" company?

Especially NOT with good ol' Timmy on board. He'd be the first to her flushed out if Apple moves out of the USA.
 
Would never happen. Where do you think Apple would go? Do you think any country would welcome a "capitalist" company?

Especially NOT with good ol' Timmy on board. He'd be the first to her flushed out if Apple moves out of the USA.
Ireland would love to be Apple headquarters
 
Thank you for both proving my point.

We have a whole army of people here saying Apple is right, it should NEVER allow access to the private data within an iPhone, no matter what.
So there you are there ARE times when almost everyone would say yes, Apple must reveal secret data to help the authorities.

It all depends at what level and who it affects before you change your mind on this point.

Hence why I think it's silly all these people say no never, as it's just "play talk" in this scenario.

"My wife and child are going to be murdered, and if only we could get into the persons iPhone we would be able to find their location and save their lives"

But no, Tim is right, I stand by the man, my family must die.

Yeah right......

And you DO realize that according to a Harvard research group a little while ago over 35 non-US companies are doing/developing their own encryption?? Why wouldn't bad people simply use other devices that the US can't demand a backdoor to?...and by allowing a backdoor here in the US end up compromising all of the phones here (and actually around the world on devices sold by US companies because it won't stop with just Apple). I see financial disruption being a bigger threat to more people here than anything else. Worldwide they have issues of the govt snatching them off the street and disappearing in some cases. Just read a Hollywood hospital just paid out ransom to some hacker that shut down their computer system. Man, to think we have apparently great security for the transmission of our finances and personal and corporate info on our phones (and I'm sure being built into newer computers) and people are willing to toss that out. Never make decisions based out of fear. You'll just end up in double do-do.
 
Thank you for both proving my point.

We have a whole army of people here saying Apple is right, it should NEVER allow access to the private data within an iPhone, no matter what.
So there you are there ARE times when almost everyone would say yes, Apple must reveal secret data to help the authorities.

It all depends at what level and who it affects before you change your mind on this point.

Hence why I think it's silly all these people say no never, as it's just "play talk" in this scenario.

"My wife and child are going to be murdered, and if only we could get into the persons iPhone we would be able to find their location and save their lives"

But no, Tim is right, I stand by the man, my family must die.

Yeah right......

Really? Another appeal to emotions?
 
If that happens, the EU will come kicking their ass.
With Apple behind em, they could waggle their nose at EU. You do know Apple already resides in Ireland. Plus I don't agree that EU would be against hosting Apple. But we getting way ahead of ourselves. Let's see how thi plays out in the courts.
 
Really? Another appeal to emotions?

Just trying to be honest here.
It's easy for people to make bold statements, stand up for rights, and shout for what's right, when they are not the ones being personally affected.
Like someone saying YES, 100% the poor people should get their lives made easier, until perhaps their wages are slashed to make it happen, OMG it's directly affecting ME.. No this needs to stop.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for privacy, like everyone here, I want my privacy protected, even though in reality I have nothing of value and am not doing anything wrong to be worried.
However, if my home, life, family were threatened, would I wish to lose all these things, or would I then suddenly change my mind?
 
Just trying to be honest here.
It's easy for people to make bold statements, stand up for rights, and shout for what's right, when they are not the ones being personally affected.
Like someone saying YES, 100% the poor people should get their lives made easier, until perhaps their wages are slashed to make it happen, OMG it's directly affecting ME.. No this needs to stop.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for privacy, like everyone here, I want my privacy protected, even though in reality I have nothing of value and am not doing anything wrong to be worried.
However, if my home, life, family were threatened, would I wish to lose all these things, or would I then suddenly change my mind?

It depends on how strongly you believe in your convictions and the constitution.

Me personally? I'd rather be dead than live in the real life incarnation of Orwell's 1984.
 
Just trying to be honest here.
It's easy for people to make bold statements, stand up for rights, and shout for what's right, when they are not the ones being personally affected.
Like someone saying YES, 100% the poor people should get their lives made easier, until perhaps their wages are slashed to make it happen, OMG it's directly affecting ME.. No this needs to stop.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for privacy, like everyone here, I want my privacy protected, even though in reality I have nothing of value and am not doing anything wrong to be worried.
However, if my home, life, family were threatened, would I wish to lose all these things, or would I then suddenly change my mind?
My take on this would be that when I have time to consider privacy logically and intellectually, I would prefer to protect the right to privacy. Of course, in a life or death situation, the pressure, emotions, and helplessness would likely make me beg for any possible solution.

I completely understand both of these situations, but I would prefer the constitution to built on the former rather than the latter. Tragedies happen. They're can be horrifying. But that doesn't mean that we should abandon our liberties for protection from every unknown, nor should we blame the people trying to help keep us safe.
 
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