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I'm sorry and I am sure I will get flamed for this, but religious freedom goes both ways. You shouldn't make a Christian photographer take photos for a same-sex wedding. IMO.

i don't think the idea is to force anybody to do anything. In all reality, a gay couple won't want nor hire a bigot christian to film their wedding against her/his will.
it's more about encouraging that bigot to re-examine / put aside their beliefs and see the greater good in treating others- all others- with the respect they deserve..

meanwhile, the gay couple will be photographed by some other christian photographer who doesn't share the internal effedupness of the first one.. it's not as if the christian photog is going to burn in hell for taking pictures of a gay couple.. this is such a stupid notion and surely (hopefully.. pretty please?) our laws can see past such.
 
As far as I know, there aren't any religions that discriminate by race. This law is RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, not racial discrimination, so before you get on your soapbox, at least stay on topic. It's not a black/white issue.

While I am not religious, I know that there are religions that do not approve of Gays, etc. That's what this law is about. While it is discrimination, it's not racial, so don't take it there.

You can STILL not approve of gays, yet provide services for them. It is not affecting religious freedom. What people approve of in their private life is not relevant to public businesses.

Do I approve of gays when I buy an Elton John CD or watch Modern Family? The religious freedom argument is fake, bogus a canard and a pretense. It is not real. No more than the Patriot Act is about patriotism.
 
Please explain how that is discrimination.

Firing someone for their beliefs is a form of discrimination. Prejudice is shown again the person being fired. That's the definition of discrimination. Now, at least in the U.S. just because an employer discriminates agains an employee in this way doesn't necessarily mean it was illegal unless the employer was a government entity.
 
Strike what down? Gay marriage? If you've been paying attention to the coverage of court cases that finally brought it to the supreme court, you would understand why it's unlikely the court will rule against gay marriage. They're the ones who allowed it to expand to 37 states so far.

They also appointed George W. Bush president, and then had the gall to say that it was basically a 'one off' and didn't set any precedent.

This court could do literally anything...

I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt the ACA a win, and killed marriage equality, just to play 'give and take'... Or vice versa...
 
As far as I know, there aren't any religions that discriminate by race. This law is RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, not racial discrimination, so before you get on your soapbox, at least stay on topic. It's not a black/white issue.

While I am not religious, I know that there are religions that do not approve of Gays, etc. That's what this law is about. While it is discrimination, it's not racial, so don't take it there.

So what's the difference? A shop owner is forced to serve a black man but its alright for them to refuse a devote Christian? What is the difference? Their is NONE, it is discrimination plain and simple and backward American states have made it law. Don't try to sugar coat it. I don't need a soap box either, because I think America is the only country with these 'laws'.

This is very dangerous grounds these states are treading on.

I'm dam glad I don't live in America with these attitudes.
 
I really don't have a problem with companies turning away any customers they want to. They're private businesses they can do what they want.

In the same vein, if there's a company that's run by bigots then customers are free to boycott and put those companies out of business.

Wouldn't we all rather know exactly where we stand with one another?

This isn't about putting anyone out of business and revenge - this is about the majority in a population treating the minority's they co-exist with, with respect. If they don't have the moral code to do it on their own then laws need to be passed to force them, otherwise civil society falls apart. During the slavery era, the majority of whites didn't have the moral code to treat blacks with respect so laws needed to be passed to force them. I find it quite unsettling how easily the majority will abuse the minority.
 
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The law doesn't target anti-discrimination laws. It's that simple. True, anti-discrimination laws would be included, but that's only because it's a law. RFRA applies to EVERYTHING. So no, this is not about discrimination. This is about burdens on religious practice generally.

"This is about burdens on religious practice generally" for their having to recognize 'those people', associate with 'those people', and serve 'those people'.

You should work in a sushi restaurant...
 
I really don't have a problem with companies turning away any customers they want to. They're private businesses they can do what they want.

In the same vein, if there's a company that's run by bigots then customers are free to boycott and put those companies out of business.

Wouldn't we all rather know exactly where we stand with one another?

I hope you're not someone I know. Sorry for the people you encounter regularly that have to deal with the roots of your statement above.
 
Putting laws in place to force equality is something else than putting laws in place to let people legally practice inequality. The first is not inhibiting anyone in their lives, while the second one is.

Thank you for your reply.
Well, some (actually, a lot!) people disagree in saying that an equality law would not inhibit anyone. Most people are concerned with social issues, therefore whatever touches a social issue will cause a hurricane of opinions. The more controversial the issue, the stronger the hurricane.
I don't see forcing up equality as a solution. Forcing a shop to make a cake does not bring equality. It brings a cake, and several lawsuits.
I believe that the only way to bring up equality (or whatever you believe in) is by taking private action. The government will always react, and whenever the government "forces" something things go bad.
 
You don't travel much do you?

Go see the rest of the world and then come back and report to us about how bad the US is.

You may be stuck in Iowa, but the U.S. is pretty backwards compared to much of Western Europe when it comes to things like religion, abortion and social/culture issues. They don't freak out in Europe when a boob is shown on TV when the kids are still up. Nor do they think its horrible to actually have medical care be universal and single payor.
 
In theory, correct. In practice, almost certainly not. The law does not say "Religious defense always wins." It applies a balancing test. There are two parts to the test. First, in order for the business to claim the religious freedom defense, it must demonstrate that the law being applied presents a substantial burden on the practice of religion. This won't apply to most businesses, because most businesses (especially large one's) cannot realistically claim a religious identity. They would have to be closely held (like Hobby Lobby), or have some explicitly stated religious mission. Even if the business could be said to have a religious identity, it would have to be demonstrated that the law substantially burdens their practice of religion. I can think of no religion in which it violates a religious principle to serve a gay couple in a restaurant or to sell some commodity or good to someone who is gay.

But we're not done yet. Even if the law places a substantial burden on religion, the state can still demonstrate that the law is the least restrictive means of accomplishing a compelling governmental interest. This is known as strict scrutiny. Some commentators note that this level of scrutiny is "strict in theory; fatal in fact," but the worst of the parade of horribles brought out by critics would not get past this step in the analysis. Critics have warned that doctors or EMTs could refuse to treat gay patients. That's preposterous because such a law requiring doctors to treat patients would certainly pass this test.

Now, when it comes to photographers, bakers, florists, etc., at gay weddings, the law may protect them. But do we really want to be forcing people to support something they find wrong? If I go into a gay person's T-shirt shop and ask for 2,000 T-shirts saying "Homosexuality Is a Sin," do we want to force the shop owner to make those T-shirts? If I went to a photographer who refused to photograph my wedding because (in her eyes) my wedding would be a cult ritual, I would prefer to know that rather than have her forced to photograph a wedding she objects to, and therefore do a worse job because of it.

Good discussion of how the law actually works. But I don't think your analogy about the t shirts is apt because that's not just forcing a business to take on a client, it's forcing it to espouse a client's particular message.
 
I'm sick of this idiot bringing his liberal politics into everything, and now he's doing even worse by jumping into unsubstantiated controversy.
The products Apple has been designing during his time as CEO seem to agree with the adjective you used. So, don't be sick, it's a waste of time, the market will dump Apple just like it happened before. And don't be sad (that is, unless you like iToys), because all the good stuff came from the NeXT years, and they trashed it a few years ago. All that good stuff is not dead, it's arriving to the open source community, and we'll continue using it in the future.

In other words, Tim is talking on behalf of iwatch owners. Don't be sick, the world isn't looking at the iwatch. This guy found his glory minute in this moment, so he wants to shout out loud his political and ideology position. But it won't last much.
 
They also appointed George W. Bush president, and then had the gall to say that it was basically a 'one off' and didn't set any precedent.

This court could do literally anything...

I wouldn't be surprised if they dealt the ACA a win, and killed marriage equality, just to play 'give and take'... Or vice versa...

I definitely understand your pessimism regarding this court, and usually they're unpredictable, but they've been pretty consistently pro-gay. As for the ACA, I'm guessing it's gonna be a win on that as well. The right got their way on hobby lobby last year, it's our turn this year!
 
Well, he is right in that this is exactly what a large number of people are asking for in this country. One nation under a flag and a cross, death to Islam and anyone that lives in sin. Complete "freedom".

So much irony in that statement.
 
Nothing in any US law prohibits a person from being a royal butt head. There are however punishments if you choose to be that way. Just like the concept of 'free speech'. There are limits, and there is no protection against having to pay for that 'speech'.

This law, and many like it, are attempts to do an end run around the law to take away the punishments for choosing to be a butt head.

No one is forcing you to be a horses ass, but you should have to pay for your perceived 'right' to behave like one. Religion isn't a shield to hide behind, it's a belief system.
 
Since Tim Cook is going there... As a black man, I find it interesting when I go into an Apple Store that I don't see much black people employed by Apple.

There's this one article stating one manager saying "black employees don't reach management." Now I agree that majority of white people shop in Apple Stores. And, I'm not attacking Apple of being a racist company... But I'd rather it be discussed openly to address the situation.

Problem is that....Apple ''looks for talent'' and by sheer numbers there's a lot more whites and asians overall. Then again there's not a lot of asians in senior positions @ Apple so I'm not sure if that's entirely true.
 
I 100% agree. I live in Indiana and I don't think the law goes far enough. The law should strike down all service reared discrimination laws. You want to give blacks to sit at the back the bar? Fine go ahead. You will be out of business in a week because people won't stand for it. You don't think women like bowling? Fine, you will be out of business in a week.
The fact is, the laws affect only a small number of people and only a smaller number of businesses will actually use them at all. And the majority will boycott the businesses and they will go out of business, it really won't matter in the long run.

not sure why you think only the people running a business are susceptible to racism etc.
the reason we're even reading news like this is because a big chunk of the general population supports it either directly or indirectly (ie- don't care).

pretty sure you could (if it were legal) open a bar with a sign out front saying 'no gays and no blacks allowed' and the bar would do just fine.
 
I really don't have a problem with companies turning away any customers they want to. They're private businesses they can do what they want.

In the same vein, if there's a company that's run by bigots then customers are free to boycott and put those companies out of business.

Wouldn't we all rather know exactly where we stand with one another?

That's a fine approach... *if* you think there aren't significant negative societal consequences to allowing discrimination to flourish.
 
Problem is that....Apple ''looks for talent'' and by sheer numbers there's a lot more whites and asians overall. Then again there's not a lot of asians in senior positions @ Apple so I'm not sure if that's entirely true.

This may have to do with me being in New England but the store I got hired at (then had to turn down because they couldn't listen to me during the entire hiring process) was extremely diverse. Tons of different nationalities, disabilities, age groups. I was really blown away at how cohesive and diverse a team they had there (West Farms Mall, CT).
 
As far as I know, there aren't any religions that discriminate by race. This law is RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, not racial discrimination, so before you get on your soapbox, at least stay on topic. It's not a black/white issue.

While I am not religious, I know that there are religions that do not approve of Gays, etc. That's what this law is about. While it is discrimination, it's not racial, so don't take it there.
It's about religious freedom on one side and discrimination on the other side. You can practice your religion and you must not discriminate against other people - those are two different things. In this case, they clash with each other.

The fact that there aren't any major religions that would discriminate against black people is irrelevant - you can start one tomorrow if you want. So the comparison with discriminating against black people is a very good way to demonstrate why this is bad.
 
I really don't have a problem with companies turning away any customers they want to. They're private businesses they can do what they want.

In the same vein, if there's a company that's run by bigots then customers are free to boycott and put those companies out of business.

Wouldn't we all rather know exactly where we stand with one another?

Until you are the one being discriminated against.
 
not sure why you think only the people running a business are susceptible to racism etc.
the reason we're even reading news like this is because a big chunk of the general population supports it either directly or indirectly (ie- don't care).

pretty sure you could (if it were legal) open a bar with a sign out front saying 'no gays and no blacks allowed' and the bar would do just fine.

Yahoos hear the words "religious freedom" and think its a good thing. Ya know, it has the word religion in it, and my pappy said church is a good thing. And yeah, "freedom" America rocks freedom. So there ya go. What more do you need to know?

The government should not be passing legislation related to religious freedom. Where in the U.S. are people not allowed to go to their church and pray? There is no lack of religious freedom in America. Nay, probably too much of it. Do we really need prayer before town council meetings or "in god we trust" on our money? Why does the local gov't have to pay for Xmas decorations every year? Does every public building have to celebrate religious holidays -- is your home looking like a barf bag of color not enough? Please -- religious freedom -- its a joke to say there is not religious freedom. There's TOO much religious freedom.

Keep it in the church or mosque people. Other people dont' care about your sky daddy.
 
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