Tim Cook Expected to Arrive in Israel Next Week for Inauguration of Herzliya-Based Offices

[0007776]

F
This isn't the place to be arguing over politics. Especially when you are terribly misinformed.

Did you notice the fact that this thread is in the PRSI? So yes it is the forum to be debating politics, that's what all the threads here are.

And do some research, Israel commits many atrocities, I'm not sure of the specific one that you are referring to here, but it is right along with what I'd expect from the Israeli government. I'm not totally sure how I feel about Apple locating in a country like Israel, but as long as they don't move into the Israeli settlements or get involved in encouraging that I won't complain too much.

 

[DTphonehome]

That's pathetic calling for people to be banned. What about free speech? Does free speech only go one way -- from you to us but not the other way around?

Your communist experiment is failing.

Again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. There is no such thing as free speech on a private website. Free-speech only guarantees that the government will not restrict your speech. Private entities have every right to restrict your speech. Particularly if it's hateful and false.

 

[thekev]

Once they're less dependable on Samsung and the likes they can produce everything in-house and it will make them even more billions.

Tim Cook and his brilliant supply-chain management capabilities full steam ahead.

I don't think making everything in house will ever happen. That actually kills a lot of big companies. I noticed they released compute kernels with metal, which might expand the range of tasks that could be allocated to an ARM device, assuming the relevant algorithms run well in parallel. It's certainly better than running those things with a complex task scheduler via pthreads. They also support similar functionality in OpenGL ES, but Apple's OpenGL support has gone from excellent to just above terrible.

That's pathetic calling for people to be banned. What about free speech? Does free speech only go one way -- from you to us but not the other way around?

Your communist experiment is failing.

It's a privately owned forum, and it does have rules of etiquette, some of which limit the discussion to things directly related to the article. You can easily locate them. I don't think that comment would cause anyone to be banned, but it certainly isn't relevant to the edit : tech aspect (noting it was moved) of the article.

 

[aaronvan]

Tim, enjoy that pastrami & rye and sell them a passel of iPhone 6+'s.

 

[Mums]

Again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. There is no such thing as free speech on a private website. Free-speech only guarantees that the government will not restrict your speech. Private entities have every right to restrict your speech. Particularly if it's hateful and false.

You aspire to logic and reason but then include irrational, subjective assertions that "hateful" speech should be censored. Your response is oxymoronic.

 

[Eraserhead]

Aaaaand here we go… can't have a post about Israel without the high school geopolitics amateurs coming out of the woodwork to demonstrate how little they know about the topic.

Were you also against the boycott of South Africa?

----------

From your own link:

"The report prompted a furious response from Israel, countering that the findings are “not based on any direct investigation on the ground, only on documents gathered from secondary sources.” "Yigal Palmor, spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, described the report’s allegations that Israel did not comply with requests for information as a “bold, scandalous lie.”

This isn't the place to be arguing over politics. Especially when you are terribly misinformed.

Israel protesting about a UN report over its mistreatment of Palestineans is a bit like North Korea protesting the UN report on its human rights record. i.e it shouldn't be taken seriously.

----------

Again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. There is no such thing as free speech on a private website. Free-speech only guarantees that the government will not restrict your speech. Private entities have every right to restrict your speech. Particularly if it's hateful and false.

By that argument almost anyone who says anything pro Israel should be banned, given it is very likely to be hateful and false.

Alternatively we should be a bit more realistic and accept alternative viewpoints. That's my
preferred approach.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Were you also against the boycott of South Africa?

----------



Israel protesting about a UN report over its mistreatment of Palestineans is a bit like North Korea protesting the UN report on its human rights record. i.e it shouldn't be taken seriously.

----------



By that argument almost anyone who says anything pro Israel should be banned, given it is very likely to be hateful and false.

Alternatively we should be a bit more realistic and accept alternative viewpoints. That's my
preferred approach.

1.) Of course not. Not too many people, even the super liberal among us or the LGBT members that frequent this website give to ****s about black people, Africans, or anyone with dark skin tones.

2.) Agreed and I don't know why Israeli supporters keep pulling that card of their deck. It's wrinkled and tattered and covered in coffee stains.

3.) Also agreed. It's what I thought the poster he quoted was saying. It's just like in France, where free speech only means "say good things about white secular people and white christians, otherwise keep your bloody mouth shut."

I live in Pikesville in Baltimore City, Maryland which has a heavy Jewish population and even they are disgusted by what Israel is doing. In fact, there's plenty of articles and media showing how sensible Jews are outraged about what Israel is doing to an already beaten country.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

Legitimate question: Has Apple been taken over by Zionist interests? No, I'm not anti-semitic - in fact, I'm Jewish and pro-Zionist. But ever since Netanyahu burst into Apple with his entourage I've been wondering if Apple is being used as a colossal cash cow and data mine.

Being Jewish doesn't exempt one from not being able to be anti-semetic. There are plenty of self-hating people in this world. Not entirely sure what Netanyahu has to do with anything here. Really as ridiculous a question as asking if Apple has been taken over by Chi-Com interests. Whether intended or not your question does wreak of self-loathing, your personal permissions notwithstanding.

 

[Eraserhead]

Being Jewish doesn't exempt one from not being able to be anti-semetic. There are plenty of self-hating people in this world. Not entirely sure what Netanyahu has to do with anything here. Really as ridiculous a question as asking if Apple has been taken over by Chi-Com interests. Whether intended or not your question does wreak of self-loathing, your personal permissions notwithstanding.

So are you saying that Jews who criticise Israels appalling human rights record are self hating Jews?

Or do you think killing a thousand people and making hundreds of thousands homeless is a proportional response for the death of three teenagers by some low level Hamas activists with apparently no connection to the leadership?

 

[webbuzz]

Legitimate question: Has Apple been taken over by Zionist interests? No, I'm not anti-semitic - in fact, I'm Jewish and pro-Zionist. But ever since Netanyahu burst into Apple with his entourage I've been wondering if Apple is being used as a colossal cash cow and data mine.

Two of my former employers have large campuses there, incredible talent for RF and encryption technologies.

 

[snberk103]

...
Israel protesting about a UN report over its mistreatment of Palestineans is a bit like North Korea protesting the UN report on its human rights record. i.e it shouldn't be taken seriously.
...

It is not a UN report. It is a report put out by a private group claiming to have consultative status with the UN. Which simply means that they sent their report to the UN. I could send a report to the UN and claim consultative status. Perhaps I'll claim that I have a UN report that proves the moon is made of green cheese. It would have the same legitimacy as the one cited in this thread.

There are several very good human rights groups who have found isolated instances of Israeli abuse of Palestinian children - at about the same rate of most developed countries - but not widespread abuses. In a related development Ha'aretz (an Israeli newspaper that is anti-Israeli government and pro-Palestinian) is reporting that Hamas has now started training children to be soldiers in Gaza. In January 17,000 Gazan children went to the first of a series of 2 week military training camp. With this action Hamas - the government of the Gaza strip - have started the process that makes their own children in legitimate military targets.

----------

....

Or do you think killing a thousand people and making hundreds of thousands homeless is a proportional response for the death of three teenagers by some low level Hamas activists with apparently no connection to the leadership?

Two thousand, nearly half of whom are being acknowledged as militants. The war did not start because of the murder of the 3 teenagers. Initially Abbas (PA) and Netanyahu tried to end the escalation there. Hamas was incensed though that Israel was arresting Hamas suspects to the murder in the West Bank and started a barrage of rockets from Gaza into Israel - aiming those rockets at civilians. There were hundreds of rockets of fired per day for weeks, forcing tens of thousands of Israelis to live in the bunkers and shelters. Israel gave Hamas several warnings to cease and desist. Hamas ramped the rocket fire up - and that is what caused the war. This narrative is recorded in numerous non-Israeli newspapers leading up to the start of the war. Anybody and go and read up on it.

 

[Eraserhead]

There are several very good human rights groups who have found isolated instances of Israeli abuse of Palestinian children - at about the same rate of most developed countries - but not widespread abuses.

Do human rights groups usually accuse developed countries of war crimes?

Two thousand, nearly half of whom are being acknowledged as militants.

Amnesty International says that 2000 civilians were killed. Lets go with their figure rather than one made up by the Israeli government.

The war did not start because of the murder of the 3 teenagers. Initially Abbas (PA) and Netanyahu tried to end the escalation there. Hamas was incensed though that Israel was arresting Hamas suspects to the murder in the West Bank and started a barrage of rockets from Gaza into Israel - aiming those rockets at civilians.

OK so I missed out the bit where Israel went and arrested all the Hamas activists on the West Bank and held them without charge which would be collective punishment and therefore illegal under international law.

And then in response to Israel's illegal actions under international law Hamas fired rockets from Gaza, which over the entire conflict killed a further six Israeli civilians.

 

[Chupa Chupa]

So are you saying that Jews who criticise Israels appalling human rights record are self hating Jews?

Or do you think killing a thousand people and making hundreds of thousands homeless is a proportional response for the death of three teenagers by some low level Hamas activists with apparently no connection to the leadership?

Saying that? No. I didn't even hint at that. I said just because someone is Jewish and claims to be a "Zionist," doesn't make their anti-semitic statement/question like "Has Apple been overtaken by Zionist interests?" not dripping in hate. Every Jew on the planet, whether they are Zionists or not, understands "Zionist interests," as a slur, not a thoughtful phrase.

 

[Macky-Mac]

.... Israel went and arrested all the Hamas activists on the West Bank .....

all of them? link please

 

[ToM7]

I feel like with everything they do for workers in China, the environment, and "standing at the corner of technology and the humanities", they should boycott Israel and not visit there.

Apple supporting apartheid Israel. Sad day.

ya? boycott israel & sad day...
so take a look of all you apple devices or google or Microsoft
do you know that the chips or the processors are manufactured here in israel?

so don't use apple devices & boycott israel

& one more thing...
don't believe in anything that you're seen on the news or in the Internet , this's all lies
P.S.
politics is sucks

 

[snberk103]

Do human rights groups usually accuse developed countries of war crimes?

Yes. How far back do you want to go? If we confine ourselves to WW II and later, there have been accusations of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity made against the US and the UK - as well as the Axis Powers of course. Since then there have been multiple accusations made against the US, the UK, Japan, France - and they have also been found guilty as often as Israel. Anyone can make accusations.... you also need proof. Keep in mind that both Israel and Hamas are now facing a preliminary investigation about whether war crimes were committed this past summer. Various Palestinian groups have been accused of war crimes/crimes against humanity multiple times as well.

Amnesty International says that 2000 civilians were killed. Lets go with their figure rather than one made up by the Israeli government.

Amnesty International gets its figures from Hamas, as does the UN. Hamas counts the 18 accused Israeli collaborators that Hamas militants pulled from their homes and summarily shot in the streets of Gaza as "civilian casualties" caused by Israel. This is not an isolated incident either... it is merely the most shot by the government of the Gaza strip in a single day.

Condemnation of Israel for holding suspects in a brutal murder. Suspects with access to human rights groups. Where is the balancing condemnation of 18 people summarily murdered by the government of the Gaza strip who were given no chance to respond to the accusations made against them.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...suspected-collaborators-executed-9686162.html

OK so I missed out the bit where Israel went and arrested all the Hamas activists on the West Bank and held them without charge which would be collective punishment and therefore illegal under international law.

I don't believe that means what you think it does.

... fired rockets from Gaza, which over the entire conflict killed a further six Israeli civilians.

Hamas attempted to kill far more Israelis. It is only because Israel has invested in protecting its civilians that Hamas was not successful. If someone comes at you with a knife and states that they intend to kill you (Hamas has stated multiple times their intention is to destroy Israel) are you supposed to take off your armour and put down your gun to make it a fair fight?

 

[Eraserhead]

all of them? link please

If I change the statement to "substantially more than can have been credibly involved in the deaths of the teenagers" will you accept it without me finding a source.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Hamas attempted to kill far more Israelis. It is only because Israel has invested in protecting its civilians that Hamas was not successful. If someone comes at you with a knife and states that they intend to kill you (Hamas has stated multiple times their intention is to destroy Israel) are you supposed to take off your armour and put down your gun to make it a fair fight?

We get it but it's a poor comparison. Israel is oppressin a group of people and keeping them in poverty.

Those people are fighting back in a horrible and terrifying way that Israel is more than capable of defending against.

Israel counters the minor annoyance that is Hamas by murdering thousands of civilians just to get at like 20 terrorists.

Israel is a terribly aggressive, oppressive, bigoted country. And that's just the news dealing with Hamas. Israel also has racial problems with Africans and Arabs the likes of which would make the KKK envious.

Israel is living the racist imperialist's dream. Kill 6 of us and we'll kill two thousand of yours.

 

[snberk103]

We get it but it's a poor comparison. Israel is oppressin a group of people and keeping them in poverty.

Those people are fighting back in a horrible and terrifying way that Israel is more than capable of defending against.

Israel counters the minor annoyance that is Hamas by murdering thousands of civilians just to get at like 20 terrorists.

Israel is a terribly aggressive, oppressive, bigoted country. And that's just the news dealing with Hamas. Israel also has racial problems with Africans and Arabs the likes of which would make the KKK envious.

Israel is living the racist imperialist's dream. Kill 6 of us and we'll kill two thousand of yours.

Israel has proven more than once that it will negotiate a ratify peace treaties with nations that negotiate with it in good faith and who will recognize Israel's right to exist in peace. Palestinians have refused these conditions - more than once. The last example was in 2005 when Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip and dismantled two or three (I forget off-hand) settlements in the West Bank as a sign of good faith and as an inducement to the PA to come to the negotiating table. Instead - Palestinian extremists started a new terror campaign and escalated the murder of Israeli civilians.

I don't know how having a quarter of your population living in bomb shelters (not working, not going to school etc) counts as a "minor annoyance". In large parts of Israel people had 15 seconds or less to get to a bomb shelter, with the sirens going off every 15 minutes or so. That is not a 'minor annoyance'.

Arabs have full rights in Israel, and form part of the Knesset. There is even an Arab appointed as an ambassador. The Arabs who live in East Jerusalem have the option of declaring themselves residents of the West Bank. The vast majority choose to keep their Israeli residency papers because they have more rights in Israel than under the jurisdiction of the PA. Yes, there are still too many racist Israelis who would like to treat Arabs as second class citizens. It is not official policy, and there are laws that are supposed to prevent it. Israel is not perfect. But then, neither is Canada.

Israel is having a tough time with African refugees at the moment because so many of them are bypassing the neighbouring and flooding into Israel. Someone must have forgotten to tell them how bad things are there. All developed and developing nations who have a flood of refugees are putting them into camps. Where is the condemnation here of Italy, Spain, Australia, etc etc who also have camps full of refugees? Or is Israel somehow special in this regard?

We don't know how many militants were killed since the PA has not yet released the official list of militants. In the previous war the New York Times compiled a list that showed that Palestinian militants made up a third of the casualties. As a comparison the Allies killed 4 civilians for each Axis soldier killed during WW II, a war that had clear military targets. Israel is killing 2 civilians for each militant, in a war where the military targets are deliberately interspersed with civilian infrastructure. (Putting your own civilians at risk by placing military targets in with civilians is, btw, a war crime. The ICC has a preliminary investigation started about this.)

 

[Eraserhead]

Yes. How far back do you want to go? If we confine ourselves to WW II and later, there have been accusations of War Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity made against the US and the UK - as well as the Axis Powers of course. Since then there have been multiple accusations made against the US, the UK, Japan, France - and they have also been found guilty as often as Israel.

Source about after World War Two.

Amnesty International gets its figures from Hamas, as does the UN.

Source.

Condemnation of Israel for holding suspects in a brutal murder.

How many suspects did they arrest? Whats the evidence against all those suspects?

Where is the balancing condemnation of 18 people summarily murdered by the government of the Gaza strip who were given no chance to respond to the accusations made against them.

They committed treason in a war, what do you expect to happen? Any country would be likely to do the same. If the Israelis summarily execute people for giving military information to Hamas at a time of war I have no objections.

Hamas attempted to kill far more Israelis.

You can't prove it either way, because they had no capability to do that.

Israel has proven more than once that it will negotiate a ratify peace treaties with nations that negotiate with it in good faith

What about the Arab peace plan.

Arabs have full rights in Israel, and form part of the Knesset. There is even an Arab appointed as an ambassador.

So how many Arabs have been in government in Israel?

----------

Israel is having a tough time with African refugees at the moment because so many of them are bypassing the neighbouring and flooding into Israel.

Source.

(Putting your own civilians at risk by placing military targets in with civilians is, btw, a war crime. The ICC has a preliminary investigation started about this.)

How can Hamas credibly defend itself without placing military targets in civilian areas?

----------

In the previous war the New York Times compiled a list that showed that Palestinian militants made up a third of the casualties.

Where did that data come from?

 

[snberk103]

I am not claiming that Israel is blameless, nor that it does not every trample human rights. My contention is that Israel is forced to deal with a brutal enemy (Hamas) whose publicly stated intention is the destruction of Israel. If want a link, Google Hamas' Charter. Their constitution calls for destruction of Jews everywhere - not just in Israel. Israel often feels forced to use brutal methods to protect itself.

I believe it is obvious that Hamas deliberately and criminally puts its own innocent civilian population in harm's way because photos of dead Palestinians weakens Israel and helps Hamas raise funds to buy more weapons for their publicly acknowledged war on Israel. That is my opinion - I've provided some links below. People can make up their own mind about this.

I'm going to address the bulk of your question in one block below, but some points need particular attention.

...
They committed treason in a war, what do you expect to happen? Any country would be likely to do the same. If the Israelis summarily execute people for giving military information to Hamas at a time of war I have no objections.

No, they did not commit treason. They were accused of a crime. They never went to court, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to face their accusers. They were simply lynched.

You can't prove it either way, because they had no capability to do that.

In July Hamas fired 2,900 missiles and mortars at Israel. As listed below, most aimed at cities. There is no question that Hamas fired these rockets - Hamas announces them to the press. Many of the rockets get through Iron Dome, or were launched at communities not protected by Iron Dome. When they hit a building they do tremendous damage. One nursery school was destroyed. Israeli casualties were minimized because Israel built a network of bomb shelters and Israelis use them. During the height of the war many Israelis lived in their shelters. Contrast that to Hamas who built a network of tunnels, but did not use them to shelter their own civilians.

What about the Arab peace plan.

Which one?

So how many Arabs have been in government in Israel?

There are currently 12 in the Knesset (Parliament). One, Mohammad Barakeh, is a former Deputy Speaker - an important role in the chamber.

For the current election there are 15 candidates running. The 4 Arab/Arab-Jewish parties have decided to run a joint list for this contest. The Knesset uses a Rep by Prop system so combining lists increases the chances of more representation.

The rest of the points you raised are dealt with here.
===

List of War Crimes - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes

This is a BBC article. Closer to the end they refer to the NY Times article (not by name) about the true ratio of militants (about 50%) in Operation Cast Lead of 2008/09. This article, among others, looks at the demographics of the casualties and notes that there are far few women and children on the lists than would be expected if the casualties were truly random.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

This is Ha’aretz, a left wing Israeli newspaper. It scathing criticizes the Israeli government routinely, and is trusted enough by the Hamas that they allowed one the papers Jewish reporters to live in Gaza - Amira Hass. This article discusses how Hamas puts it’s launchers near residences, schools, hospitals.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.615478

“Ziad Abu Halool says he is tired of seeing his neighborhood destroyed. He’s tired of having no running water for 10 days, no electricity for even longer. He’s tired of watching Hamas and other Palestinian militants fire rockets into Israel from his neighborhood — and tired of praying that Israeli retaliation won’t obliterate his house.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...e3381e-e0a1-4243-ad49-09aef0656d2c_story.html

This article has several quotes from Hamas announcing proudly that they were now targeting Israel’s 3 main cities. Israel, in accordance with international law, does not put military installations in its cities. Hamas is attempting to kill civilians - by definition a war crime. This is one of the areas the ICC is currently looking at in its preliminary investigation of this past summer’s war.
“Hamas’ military wing the al-Qassam Brigades said Tuesday evening that they dedicated the missile attacks on Haifa, Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem to the Egyptian soldiers who were killed in the October 1973 war, Ma'an news agency reported today.”
http://www.tehrantimes.com/world/11...-israel-qassam-fighters-attack-military-base/

“But it is indisputable that Gaza militants operate in civilian areas, draw return fire to civilian structures, and on some level benefit in the diplomatic arena from the rising casualties. They also have at times encouraged residents not to flee their homes when alerted by Israel to a pending strike and, having prepared extensively for war, did not build civilian bomb shelters.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/24/w...as-is-using-civilians-as-shields-in-gaza.html

Youtube video that is a compilation of foreign journalists reporting about rocket launchers placed in residential areas and next to hotels housing reporters. Most of these reports came out after the war because Hamas was expelling journalists who criticized the Hamas tactics during the war - sometimes at gunpoint.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BNdhkmPFLY

This link is from the IDF itself, and details a captured Hamas combat manual that explains how to use civilians as human shields. This manual is available for inspection. I have found no human rights organizations that claim the IDF has forged it. But if you can find that evidence I will withdraw this claim.
http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

 

[Eraserhead]

My contention is that Israel is forced to deal with a brutal enemy (Hamas) whose publicly stated intention is the destruction of Israel. If want a link, Google Hamas' Charter.

And Likud's election platform doesn't call for the creation of a two state solution, so really it isn't any better.

Their constitution calls for destruction of Jews everywhere - not just in Israel.

I've read Hamas' charter, and I will certainly agree that it calls for the destruction of Israel, but it doesn't call for the deaths of any Jews. Come on please be honest.

I believe it is obvious that Hamas deliberately and criminally puts its own innocent civilian population in harm's way because photos of dead Palestinians weakens Israel and helps Hamas raise funds to buy more weapons for their publicly acknowledged war on Israel. That is my opinion - I've provided some links below. People can make up their own mind about this.

This article discusses how Hamas puts it’s launchers near residences, schools, hospitals.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.615478

Hamas should have the right to self defence. How can they credibly defend themselves without putting stuff in cities? There are no non-civilian areas in Gaza.

No, they did not commit treason. They were accused of a crime. They never went to court, they never had a chance to defend themselves, they never had a chance to face their accusers. They were simply lynched.

Clearly Hamas should improve its justice system, but come on, there's a very short list of countries you'd expect to treat people accused of treason in wartime properly, and it isn't very long. Perhaps the Scandinavians or the British might.

In July Hamas fired 2,900 missiles and mortars at Israel. As listed below, most aimed at cities. There is no question that Hamas fired these rockets - Hamas announces them to the press. Many of the rockets get through Iron Dome, or were launched at communities not protected by Iron Dome.

How should Hamas conduct itself against superior military force?

When they hit a building they do tremendous damage.

So do Israeli bombs. Except that in reality they kill vastly more people.

There are currently 12 in the Knesset (Parliament). One, Mohammad Barakeh, is a former Deputy Speaker - an important role in the chamber.

...

For the current election there are 15 candidates running.

So? Are they in government or have they been in government? Frankly for a group that makes up 20% of the population to have only had one deputy speaker is pretty bad.

List of War Crimes - Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes

That list doesn't include a huge amount conducted by Western Countries to be honest and the Americans seem to be the primary offenders. My assessment of it would that, say, the Malaysian Emergency, conducted by the British in the 1950's is roughly as bad as the Israeli Gaza offensive of 2014.

This is a BBC article. Closer to the end they refer to the NY Times article (not by name) about the true ratio of militants (about 50%) in Operation Cast Lead of 2008/09. This article, among others, looks at the demographics of the casualties and notes that there are far few women and children on the lists than would be expected if the casualties were truly random.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28688179

While undoubtably some of them are militants there are also other explanations, such as young men being more likely to be sent outside of the bomb shelters to help their families.

Israel, in accordance with international law, does not put military installations in its cities.

Great, but Israel can credibly defend itself without putting military installations in cities.

 

[Macky-Mac]

If I change the statement to "substantially more than can have been credibly involved in the deaths of the teenagers" will you accept it without me finding a source.

What? Your claim was actually bogus??? Well darn!

 

[Eraserhead]

What? Your claim was actually bogus??? Well darn!

Absolutes are always wrong .

 

[Macky-Mac]

....Hamas should have the right to self defence. How can they credibly defend themselves without putting stuff in cities? There are no non-civilian areas in Gaza.....

The argument that Hamas are "just defending themselves" falls into the same category as the idea that Israel is "just defending itself" when it response to the ongoing Hamas rocket attacks......mostly exaggeration in other words.

Hamas simply doesn't have the military capacity to "credibly defend themselves" against the Israelis, ......and they know it......everybody knows it.....and that's true whether they put their "stuff" inside or outside of Gaza's cities (and check out Gaza on Google Earth if you believe it's all one continuous city)

The most credible reason Hamas puts some of its "stuff" in built-up areas is that they know this will produce dead Palestinian civilians whose deaths Hamas then exploits for propaganda purposes.