Tim Cook Expected to Arrive in Israel Next Week for Inauguration of Herzliya-Based Offices

[snberk103]

And Likud's election platform doesn't call for the creation of a two state solution, so really it isn't any better.

Source? Doesn't matter anyway. In Israel the government is made up of a coalition of several parties who all get to determine what government policy is. Israel has in fact been offering to negotiate a two-state solution with the PA.

I've read Hamas' charter, and I will certainly agree that it calls for the destruction of Israel, but it doesn't call for the deaths of any Jews. Come on please be honest.

Let me emphasize here that I believe Hamas is an extremist organization and that they do not in any way represent mainstream Islamic values in any way. They are distorting the Koran, in my opinion, to support their own ugly aims.

"For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails."
"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! "

Hamas should have the right to self defence. How can they credibly defend themselves without putting stuff in cities? There are no non-civilian areas in Gaza.

In 2005 Israel evacuated their settlements in Gaza so that there were no occupying forces there, dismantled two or three in the West Bank as a good will gesture and opened the Gaza border up to an unprecedented degree since 1967. Militants from Gaza used the open border to escalate the killings of Israeli civilians. What were they defending themselves against? Were they frightened of what would happen if instead of war Gaza started to build a healthy economy? Were they defending themselves from the possibility of becoming a peaceful nation?

Clearly Hamas should improve its justice system, but come on, there's a very short list of countries you'd expect to treat people accused of treason in wartime properly, and it isn't very long. Perhaps the Scandinavians or the British might.

I actually expect every nation to not lynch those accused of crimes. These were not lynching in Gaza by a mob - this was a lynching by Hamas militants. In other words - the government of Gaza.

...
So? Are they in government or have they been in government? Frankly for a group that makes up 20% of the population to have only had one deputy speaker is pretty bad.

I just looked at some numbers for the US Congress and UK Parliament, and it seems that an Arab in Israel has a better chance - two times better at a minimum - of being in the Knesset than a Muslim in the UK or US and Hispanic/Latino in the US do of being in their respective Houses. I did not cherry pick the US & the UK, they were simply the first two Houses I looked at. The numbers I used were from the Pew research, and the official US/UK government & and census sites.

Israel has 20% Arab population, and Arabs make up 10% of the Knesset.
In the 2010 UK elections Muslims made up 1.2% of Parliament while being 4.4% of the population.
In the US 113th Congress Muslims are .37% of Congress while making up between 1%-2% of the US population.
In the US 113th Congress Hispanic/Latino members make up 6.9% of Congress even though they are 17.1% of the population.

I'd say Arab representation in the Knesset is not only in line with a normal functioning democracy, but ahead of most.

That list doesn't include a huge amount conducted by Western Countries to be honest and the Americans seem to be the primary offenders. My assessment of it would that, say, the Malaysian Emergency, conducted by the British in the 1950's is roughly as bad as the Israeli Gaza offensive of 2014.

You asked how many developed nations were accused of war crimes. I gave you the list. These are simply accusations, and I agree that most are baseless and are politically motivated and not based on reality. Which is why most (if not all) were dismissed. Israel has also been accused of war crimes/crimes against humanity in the past, and those charges have been dismissed as well.

...
Great, but Israel can credibly defend itself without putting military installations in cities.

There are lots of open fields in Gaza. A quick look at Google satellite view was very instructive for me.

So why does the government of Gaza insist on starting wars with Israel that it knows will kill its civilians? Hamas has gotten so violent that Egypt has had to totally seal its border with Gaza to keep Hamas contained. There have been scores of Egyptian soldiers and police killed in the past couple of months by militants in the Sinai who are getting support and weapons from Hamas. Egypt is clearing a huge swath of territory its side of the Gaza border to intercept the tunnels that Hamas is using to smuggle weapons into the Sinai from the strip. Hamas could completely bypass the Israeli border controls if they simply stopped attacking Egyptian forces in the Sinai. In other words... Gaza could function as more normal state, regardless of the Israeli blockade, if Hamas wasn't intent on war instead of helping its own citizens.

 

[Eraserhead]

Source?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/despit...lution-top-likud-mks-plan-to-annex-west-bank/

In Israel the government is made up of a coalition of several parties who all get to determine what government policy is. Israel has in fact been offering to negotiate a two-state solution with the PA

But it won't negotiate with Hamas, so those talks are pointless.

Let me emphasize here that I believe Hamas is an extremist organization

So is Likud and Jewish Home, who make up two of the three parties in the current Israeli government.

"For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails."
"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! "

Source for that translation? How do you know it isn't merely referring to the Israelis.

Militants from Gaza used the open border to escalate the killings of Israeli civilians.

Source.

I just looked at some numbers for the US Congress and UK Parliament, and it seems that an Arab in Israel has a better chance - two times better at a minimum - of being in the Knesset than a Muslim in the UK or US and Hispanic/Latino in the US do of being in their respective Houses. I did not cherry pick the US & the UK, they were simply the first two Houses I looked at. The numbers I used were from the Pew research, and the official US/UK government & and census sites.

Israel has 20% Arab population, and Arabs make up 10% of the Knesset.
In the 2010 UK elections Muslims made up 1.2% of Parliament while being 4.4% of the population.
In the US 113th Congress Muslims are .37% of Congress while making up between 1%-2% of the US population.
In the US 113th Congress Hispanic/Latino members make up 6.9% of Congress even though they are 17.1% of the population.

Yes, so Israeli Arabs have more representation in Parliament, but no representation in government so its meaningless. Even though the percentage of the Muslim population in the UK is lower than in Israel there was a muslim presence in the Conservative cabinet until last year.

So why does the government of Gaza insist on starting wars with Israel that it knows will kill its civilians?

It didn't start the war.

I actually expect every nation to not lynch those accused of crimes.

When that crime is treason in wartime you are very naive.

----------

Hamas has gotten so violent that Egypt has had to totally seal its border with Gaza to keep Hamas contained. There have been scores of Egyptian soldiers and police killed in the past couple of months by militants in the Sinai who are getting support and weapons from Hamas.

Source.

----------

You asked how many developed nations were accused of war crimes. I gave you the list. These are simply accusations, and I agree that most are baseless and are politically motivated and not based on reality.

I don't think there is very much doubt about any of the accusations on that list, I think we all know that the Malaysian Emergency actually happened and that there were abuses, as there were in Kenya, and with the French in Algeria.

Still most of these accusations are still rather longer ago than 2014.

----------

There are lots of open fields in Gaza. A quick look at Google satellite view was very instructive for me.

How can they defend themselves in an open field against an army with modern high-tech weaponry? Even the Vietcong hid among civilians, even though they could fight the Americans by hiding in the jungle.

 

[Macky-Mac]

View Post
Hamas has gotten so violent that Egypt has had to totally seal its border with Gaza to keep Hamas contained. There have been scores of Egyptian soldiers and police killed in the past couple of months by militants in the Sinai who are getting support and weapons from Hamas.

Source.
.

you're really unaware of this???

Back under President Morsi Egypt had started sealing its border with Gaza by pouring sewage into the tunnels under the border....now a border zone is being cleared;


Aljazeera;

Egypt to clear residents from Gaza border
People living along Gaza border ordered to evacuate as army plans to destroy their homes and create a buffer zone.

Egyptian authorities have ordered residents living along the country's eastern border with the Gaza Strip to evacuate their homes prior to their demolishing because the army plans to set up a buffer zone.

The measure comes four days after armed men attacked an army post, killing at least 31 soldiers in the restive area in the northeastern corner of the Sinai Peninsula.

After the attack, Egypt declared a state of emergency and a dawn-to-dusk curfew there. Authorities also indefinitely closed the Gaza crossing, the only non-Israeli passage for the crowded strip.

The buffer zone, which will include water-filled trenches to thwart tunnel diggers, will be 500m wide and extended along the 13km border, officials told the AP news agency. It aims to stop weapons and trafficking between Egypt and the Palestinian territory. ...

Rueters;

Egypt clears Gaza border area to create security buffer

Egypt began clearing residents from its border with the Gaza Strip on Wednesday to create a buffer zone following some of the worst anti-state violence since President Mohamed Mursi was overthrown last year....

...Egypt declared a state of emergency in the border area after at least 33 security personnel were killed on Friday in two attacks in the Sinai Peninsula, a remote but strategic region bordering Israel, Gaza and the Suez Canal.

It also accelerated plans to create a 500-metre deep buffer zone by clearing houses and trees and destroying tunnels it says are used to smuggle arms from Gaza to militants in Sinai....

 

[Eraserhead]

you're really unaware of this???

Back under President Morsi Egypt had started sealing its border with Gaza by pouring sewage into the tunnels under the border....now a border zone is being cleared;


Aljazeera;



Rueters;

Fair enough, however there doesn't appear to be much if any evidence that Hamas is connected to these attacks beyond some assertions by the Egyptian government (which Hamas has denied) who doesn't like Hamas due to their links with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

I guess it's possible Hamas supplied weapons to the terrorists in the Sinai peninsula, but it's far from certain.

 

[snberk103]

Regarding the two-state solution, today's Jerusalem Post
“With regard to the two-state solution, Netanyahu has stated on several occasions that he supports it within the framework of a genuine peace agreement, which would involve the end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and firm security arrangements for Israel. The last time he stated this was in the Knesset last Monday, in his welcoming speech to French President François Hollande.”
Today’s Jerusalem Post (Feb 15/2015)

There are 5 parties in government, not 3: Likud, Yisrael Beiteinu, Yesh Atid, Jewish Home, Hatnuah.* Though I do agree with you that this government is far too extremist for my liking.*Hopefully the elections will remedy that.

...
Source for that translation? How do you know it isn't merely referring to the Israelis.

I've seen multiple translations - they always say Jews. If you know of a alternative translation I'd be happy to see the link.

Yes, so Israeli Arabs have more representation in Parliament, but no representation in government so its meaningless.

It's a democracy, just like the US and the UK. The point we were settling was whether Arabs were repressed in Israel. I think I've shown that they have the vote, and have been given important positions.

It didn't start the war.

Firing a hundred rockets a day at cities for an extended period usually constitutes an act war. Israel warned Hamas to stop firing rockets and that it would use force to end the barrage. The rocket continued to be fired. In my opinion Hamas started that war.

When that crime is treason in wartime you are very naive.

List some examples of developed nations that have lynched traitors in the time of war.

-...
How can they defend themselves in an open field against an army with modern high-tech weaponry? Even the Vietcong hid among civilians, even though they could fight the Americans by hiding in the jungle.

Gee... they could not start the war in first place. They could accept Israel's right to exist and negotiate a peace treaty. Israel has proven it will do so... Jordan and Egypt both accepted Israel's right to exist and to exist in peace and Israel signed peace treaties with them.

More about the Gaza disengagement in 2005. This was the last time there was a good chance for peace. Hamas and the PA had a chance to meet Israel's gestures with their own gestures of good will.

“The disengagement was proposed by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, adopted by the government on June 6, 2004 and enacted in August 2005. Those Israeli citizens who refused to accept government compensation packages and voluntarily vacate their homes prior to the August 15, 2005 deadline, were evicted by Israeli security forces over a period of several days The eviction of all residents, demolition of the residential buildings and evacuation of associated security personnel from the Gaza Strip was completed by September 12, 2005.* The eviction and dismantlement of the four settlements in the northern West Bank was completed ten days later.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

This was a gesture of good faith on Israel’s part. To be fair, Israel didn’t want to do this… I believe it was strong armed by Europe and the US who forced Israel into this action. Israeli right-wingers claimed that this would not stop Israelis being murdered. Here is the list of Israelis killed by terrorists immediately following the withdrawal from Gaza.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html#2005
“August 24 - Shmuel Mett, 21, of Britain, a Mir Yeshiva student, was returning from the Western Wall to the yeshiva in Jerusalem’s Beit Yisrael neighborhood when he was fatally stabbed near Jaffa Gate in the Old City. Two other students were wounded.

September 21 - Sasson Nuriel, 55, of Jerusalem was kidnapped and slain by Palestinian terrorists. His body was found on Sept 26 in a garbage dump in the industrial zone of Bitunya, west of Ramallah. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

October 16 - Matat (Rosenfeld) Adler, 21, and her cousin, Kineret Mandel, 23, both of Carmel, and Oz Ben-Meir, 15, of Maon were killed and three were wounded when Palestinians opened fire at the Gush Etzion junction south of Jerusalem. Another teenager was seriously shot and wounded near Eli, in Samaria.* The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for both attacks.

October 26 - Michael Kaufman, 68, of Hadera, Pirhiya Machlouf, 53, of Hadera, Sabiha Nissim, 66, of Moshav Ahituv, Jamil Qa'adan, 48, of Baka al-Gharbiya, and Ya'acov Rahmani, 68, of Hadera were murdered by a suicide bomber who detonated himself at the Hadera open-air market. A sixth victim, Genia Poleis, 66, of Hadera, died of her wounds 11 days later, on Saturday, November 5. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the atrocity.

November 2 - St.-Sgt. Yonatan Evron, 20, of Rishon Lezion, was mortally wounded in a gun battle with terrorists near the West Bank town of Jenin before dawn. Evron's unit was providing security for an overnight raid on a terrorist hideout in the village of Marka when terrorists opened fire from ambush at about 3 a.m., wounding him. He died while being evacuated to a hospital by helicopter.

November 9 - Hussam Fathi Mahajna, 36, an Israeli Arab businessman from Umm al-Fahm, was among 57 people murdered and 300 wounded in simultaneous attacks by suicide bombers in Amman, Jordan at three luxury hotels. Mahajna was a guest at a wedding held at the Radisson Hotel, known to be popular with Israeli tourists. Al-Qaida claimed responsiblity for the attacks.

December 5 - Five people were killed and over 50 wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Sharon shopping mall in Netanya. The terrorist detonated the bomb when he was stopped by security guards, one of whom was killed. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: Haim Amram, 26, of Netanya, a security guard at the mall; Alexandra Garmitzky, 65, of Netanya; Daniel Golani, 45, of Nahariya; Elia Rosen, 38, of Bat Hefer; and Keinan Tsuami, 20, of Petah Tikva.

December 8 - Sgt. Nir Kahane, 20, of Kiryat Tivon, was stabbed to death at the Kalandiya checkpoint, south of Ramallah. The assailant was apprehended.The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.

December 16 - Yosef (Yossi) Shok, 35, of Beit Hagai was killed in a shooting attack while driving home in the southern Hebron hills. Two passengers were wounded. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

December 29 - Lt. Ori Binamo, 21, of Nesher was killed when a terrorist en route to carry out an attack in Israel detonated himself at a roadblock set up near Tulkarm following an intelligence tip. A second intended suicide terrorist was also killed in the blast as well as the taxi driver and a third passenger. Three soldiers and seven Palestinians were wounded.”

 

[Eraserhead]

“With regard to the two-state solution, Netanyahu has stated on several occasions that he supports it within the framework of a genuine peace agreement, which would involve the end of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and firm security arrangements for Israel. The last time he stated this was in the Knesset last Monday, in his welcoming speech to French President François Hollande.”

Netanyahu has had his arm twisted to agree that, but the peace talks haven't got anywhere, nor is Hamas involved.

I've seen multiple translations - they always say Jews. If you know of a alternative translation I'd be happy to see the link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Article 31 makes it quite clear that they don't want to kill all the Jews.

It's a democracy, just like the US and the UK. The point we were settling was whether Arabs were repressed in Israel. I think I've shown that they have the vote, and have been given important positions.

I agree they've had the vote but one deputy speaker position hardly constitutes an important position.

Firing a hundred rockets a day at cities for an extended period usually constitutes an act war. Israel warned Hamas to stop firing rockets and that it would use force to end the barrage. The rocket continued to be fired. In my opinion Hamas started that war.

The rocket firing only started after Israel arrested a whole bunch of Hamas activists in the West Bank for no reason. And its not as if very long went on after the rockets started before Israel started bombing, I doubt it was as much as a day.

They certainly didn't wait for the first Israeli casualty.

List some examples of developed nations that have lynched traitors in the time of war.

I can't as developed nations haven't been involved in any wars that seriously affect their own countries since 1945.

If you seriously think (say) an Indian who sold secrets to the Pakistanis in a time of war wouldn't be summarily executed, I've a bridge to sell you.

Gee... they could not start the war in first place. They could accept Israel's right to exist and negotiate a peace treaty. Israel has proven it will do so.

Israel refuses to talk to Hamas, so its pretty hard for Hamas to negotiate a peace treaty.

More about the Gaza disengagement in 2005. This was the last time there was a good chance for peace. Hamas and the PA had a chance to meet Israel's gestures with their own gestures of good will.

You claimed that after the disengagement in 2005 there was an escalation of violence against the Israeli citizens, if that was the case then there would surely have been more Israeli deaths since 2005 than there were before. Whereas in reality there have only been 153 Israeli civilian deaths since 2005, compared to 1100 between 2000 and 2005 - source.

 

[Macky-Mac]

Fair enough, however there doesn't appear to be much if any evidence that Hamas is connected to these attacks beyond some assertions by the Egyptian government (which Hamas has denied) who doesn't like Hamas due to their links with the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood.

I guess it's possible Hamas supplied weapons to the terrorists in the Sinai peninsula, but it's far from certain.

Even under President Morsi, a member of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood as you might recall, Egypt had started to choke off the flow of weapons from Gaza to militants in the Sinai.....while the current regime puts a lot of focus on the Muslim Brotherhood, the Sinai violence seems to be related to more radical salafi groups and not the Muslim Brotherhood

Aljazeera report from Feb 2013

Egypt court orders tunnels to Gaza destroyed
Ruling will remove routes between Egypt and the Gaza Strip for smuggled weapons, but also a lifeline for Palestinians.

...President Mohammed Morsi's national security adviser, Essam Haddad, has said Egypt will not tolerate the two-way flow of smuggled arms through the tunnels that is destabilising its Sinai peninsula.

Egyptian forces flooded some of the tunnels with sewage earlier this month....

 

[Eraserhead]

Even under President Morsi, a member of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood as you might recall, Egypt had started to choke off the flow of weapons from Gaza to militants in the Sinai.....while the current regime puts a lot of focus on the Muslim Brotherhood, the Sinai violence seems to be related to more radical salafi groups and not the Muslim Brotherhood

Aljazeera report from Feb 2013

Ah I didn't realise that, that seems quite credible then.

 

[Macky-Mac]

....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Article 31 makes it quite clear that they don't want to kill all the Jews.

..... They could accept Israel's right to exist and negotiate a peace treaty. Israel has proven it will do so.

....Israel refuses to talk to Hamas, so its pretty hard for Hamas to negotiate a peace treaty......

well if you believe Hamas doesn't intend to kill all the jews because of what their covenant says, then certainly you should also be expected to believe their covenant regarding negotiating a peace treaty

from your link;

Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer

so there you have it.....you've proven Hamas doesn't believe in such things

 

[snberk103]

....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Covenant

Article 31 makes it quite clear that they don't want to kill all the Jews.

There is a lot more text than the sanitized and abridged version Wikipedia is quoting. From that same Article 31
"It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region..."

In other words, a Jewish Nation (Israel) has no right to exist there.

Or how about Article 32
"Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that"

Or Article 13
"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas] ... There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. "

The full text can be found here. I trust the Yale translation. But the others I've seen are essentially the same.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

 

[Eraserhead]

There is a lot more text than the sanitized and abridged version Wikipedia is quoting. From that same Article 31
"It is the duty of the followers of other religions to stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region..."

In other words, a Jewish Nation (Israel) has no right to exist there.

Or how about Article 32
"Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that"

Or Article 13
"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement [Hamas] ... There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. "

The full text can be found here. I trust the Yale translation. But the others I've seen are essentially the same.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp

You can quite clearly call their bluff on that by being publicly happy to negotiate with them and see what they do.

If they truly won't negotiate then they look like the unambiguously bad ones.

 

[snberk103]

You can quite clearly call their bluff on that by being publicly happy to negotiate with them and see what they do.

If they truly won't negotiate then they look like the unambiguously bad ones.

The negotiation happened in 2004/05 and the PA won. The US and Europe strong-armed Israel into evacuating the Israeli settlements in Gaza. The occupation of Gaza was finished. The border between Israel and Gaza was widened. The border between Egypt and Gaza was opened up. Israel dismantled 4 settlements in the West Bank (as noted earlier). Israel made all of these concessions in exchange for peace. For Israelis to live their lives without the constant fear of being killed by bombers and rocket attacks.

The one condition Israel asked for was to be left in peace. This was the PA's opportunity to show the world and Israel whether it was interested in peace or war.

Within hours of the last Israeli troops leaving Gaza two rockets were fired at Israeli communities. Two weeks after that more than 30 rockets were fired into Israel. Within two months a rocket was fired from the West Bank for the 1st time.

In 2006 - the year after the disengagement in Gaza - nearly 1300 rockets and mortars are fired into Israel (more than double than the previous year). That's nearly 4 a day, or one every 6 hours. This is *after* Gaza is no longer occupied and Israel had started to dismantle the occupation in the West Bank. In 2007 there were 2807 rockets and mortars fired into Israel. It appears to Israelis that they more they concede to PA the worse things get for Israel.

The negotiation happened, and there was a window of opportunity for peace. I don't believe it was the Israelis who blew it in 2006.

Despite signing a cease fire agreement Hamas continues to test fire rockets.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-lobs-two-rockets-into-mediterranean-sea/

We already know that starting another war with Israel is not going to improve things for Palestinian civilians. The entire world knows that. Maybe it's time for Hamas to publicly renounce violence? It might lead to something better for both Palestinian and Israeli civilians than the current situation.

 

[Eraserhead]

The negotiation happened in 2004/05 and the PA won. The US and Europe strong-armed Israel into evacuating the Israeli settlements in Gaza. The occupation of Gaza was finished. The border between Israel and Gaza was widened. The border between Egypt and Gaza was opened up. Israel dismantled 4 settlements in the West Bank (as noted earlier). Israel made all of these concessions in exchange for peace. For Israelis to live their lives without the constant fear of being killed by bombers and rocket attacks.

Well I don't really see how you can say the PA "won" anything at all, as the 2005 status quo isn't close to the 1967 borders that are generally considered to be a reasonable compromise for peace.

EDIT: You also can't seriously expect a peace deal only made with half the government would actually hold.

That said Israel has seen a reduction by an order of magnitude in violence.

In 2006 - the year after the disengagement in Gaza - nearly 1300 rockets and mortars are fired into Israel (more than double than the previous year). That's nearly 4 a day, or one every 6 hours.

The Israelis went back into Gaza in 2006, how many of those rockets were fired outside that time? And how many people were killed by them?

In 2007 there were 2807 rockets and mortars fired into Israel.

You also have to remember that Hamas won a free and fair election in Palestine around this time and that the West denied Hamas their aid money, so they weren't exactly content.

Additionally those 2807 rockets killed a grand total of 2 people and injured about 25 people - source.

Despite signing a cease fire agreement Hamas continues to test fire rockets.

So? Does Israel stop training its soldiers in peace times?

We already know that starting another war with Israel is not going to improve things for Palestinian civilians. The entire world knows that.

Actually in a big picture sense it kinda doesn't make things worse for the Palestinians, as it gets coverage on the front pages across the world, and Israel's overreactions generally make it look bad.

Even in Europe all our parliaments have passed bills recognising Palestine for the first time after Israel's overreactions.

 

[snberk103]

...
Actually in a big picture sense it kinda doesn't make things worse for the Palestinians, as it gets coverage on the front pages across the world, and Israel's overreactions generally make it look bad.
...

Thank you for making my point. Hamas has deliberatly been using Israel to kill innocent Palestinians to make Israel look bad. Dead people for good PR, in other words. In my opinion this is a heinous crime and should be acknowledged by the world.

I'm just out the door, and will address the other points later today.

 

[Eraserhead]

Thank you for making my point. Hamas has deliberatly been using Israel to kill innocent Palestinians to make Israel look bad.

There's a very simple solution to that, which is for Israel to respond in proportion.

But to be perfectly honest Hamas is pretty desperate given Gaza is effectively a large prison camp.

 

[snberk103]

....
But to be perfectly honest Hamas is pretty desperate given Gaza is effectively a large prison camp.

As stated above - in 2005 the occupation of Gaza ended, and the borders controls were opened up. The Egyptian/Gaza border crossing was initially put under the supervision of EU personnel. The "prison camp" had an opportunity to choose to go down the road to becoming a peaceful nation by renouncing violence. It didn't. The Israeli invasion later in 2006 happened Gaza stepped its attacks and 'invaded' Israel to kidnap an Israeli soldier. "Following disengagement in 2005, Qassam rockets continued to be fired out of Gaza into Israel, and the pace of the attacks quickened in 2006 following the victory of the Islamist group Hamas in the Palestinian legislative elections of early 2006. 757 missiles hit Israel between disengagement and the end of June, 2006[4] and Israel responded with artillery fire and air strikes." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Summer_Rains

And - ironically - the 'prison camp' was created by Arabs for Arabs in 1949. The territory that was supposed to become the Palestinian homeland was invaded and occupied by Egypt in Gaza, and Jordan and Iraq in the West Bank. The Palestinian dream was destroyed by the neighbouring Arab nations - not the Israelis. The Palestinian Liberation Organization was initially formed in the mid-1960s - before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. The world didn't lift a finger to help the Palestinians when the prison guards were Arabs. It was only when the Israelis inherited the mess in 1967 that the world seem to notice.

There is a light version of the Arab invasion of Israel in 1948/49 at Wikipedia. It also has 223 footnotes to primary sources.

 

[Eraserhead]

As stated above - in 2005 the occupation of Gaza ended, and the borders controls were opened up. The Egyptian/Gaza border crossing was initially put under the supervision of EU personnel. The "prison camp" had an opportunity to choose to go down the road to becoming a peaceful nation by renouncing violence. It didn't. The Israeli invasion later in 2006 happened Gaza stepped its attacks and 'invaded' Israel to kidnap an Israeli soldier. "Following disengagement in 2005, Qassam rockets continued to be fired out of Gaza into Israel, and the pace of the attacks quickened in 2006 following the victory of the Islamist group Hamas in the Palestinian legislative elections of early 2006. 757 missiles hit Israel between disengagement and the end of June, 2006[4] and Israel responded with artillery fire and air strikes." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Summer_Rains

And - ironically - the 'prison camp' was created by Arabs for Arabs in 1949. The territory that was supposed to become the Palestinian homeland was invaded and occupied by Egypt in Gaza, and Jordan and Iraq in the West Bank. The Palestinian dream was destroyed by the neighbouring Arab nations - not the Israelis. The Palestinian Liberation Organization was initially formed in the mid-1960s - before Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. The world didn't lift a finger to help the Palestinians when the prison guards were Arabs. It was only when the Israelis inherited the mess in 1967 that the world seem to notice.

There is a light version of the Arab invasion of Israel in 1948/49 at Wikipedia. It also has 223 footnotes to primary sources.

Attacks quickened in 2006, probably due to - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

 

[snberk103]

Attacks quickened in 2006, probably due to - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006

Yes. It is sad that in 2006 - when the best chance for peace since 1948 was in reach - Palestinians chose to elect as their government a militant extremist group whose intent was continuing a war, rather than one of the parties that would have pursued peace.

There is no question that Israel meddled in the election in the districts around Jerusalem (though it also facilitated them by allowing the use of Israeli post offices as voting locations). Nonetheless the international monitors called the election a fair one: "An 84-delegate international observer delegation monitored the elections. It judged the elections to have been peaceful and well-administered" (from the link you provided).

Reading through the platforms of the parties that did not do well, I am saddened by how poorly those parties dedicated to a peaceful solution did. This election could have - should have - been the start of peace. I don't know when they will see this opportunity again.

Two other interesting quotes from that Wikipedia article [emphasis added]
"-Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition

-Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%"

"World Public Opinion summarised the election voting drivers as follows:

”The decisive victory of the militant Islamic group Hamas in last month’s Palestinian legislative elections (winning 74 of 132 parliamentary seats) has raised the question of whether the Palestinian public has become aligned with Hamas’ rejection of Israel’s right to exist and its stated goal of creating an Islamic state covering all of historic Palestine, including what is now Israel. Hamas has come under increasing pressure to renounce its goal of eliminating Israel, but Hamas leaders have refused."

I had hoped there were new elections scheduled for the PNA, but it seems that the elections that were supposed to be held by October 2014 (at the latest) are now indefinitely delayed. Sigh. This is not going to help peace. Now I just hope that the Israeli electorate will take a chance and move their government towards a more moderate stance. It might happen... there are some good people running against Netanyahu.

 

[Eraserhead]

Yes. It is sad that in 2006 - when the best chance for peace since 1948 was in reach - Palestinians chose to elect as their government a militant extremist group whose intent was continuing a war, rather than one of the parties that would have pursued peace.

There is no question that Israel meddled in the election in the districts around Jerusalem (though it also facilitated them by allowing the use of Israeli post offices as voting locations). Nonetheless the international monitors called the election a fair one: "An 84-delegate international observer delegation monitored the elections. It judged the elections to have been peaceful and well-administered" (from the link you provided).

Reading through the platforms of the parties that did not do well, I am saddened by how poorly those parties dedicated to a peaceful solution did. This election could have - should have - been the start of peace. I don't know when they will see this opportunity again.

Two other interesting quotes from that Wikipedia article [emphasis added]
"-Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition

-Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%"

"World Public Opinion summarised the election voting drivers as follows:

”The decisive victory of the militant Islamic group Hamas in last month’s Palestinian legislative elections (winning 74 of 132 parliamentary seats) has raised the question of whether the Palestinian public has become aligned with Hamas’ rejection of Israel’s right to exist and its stated goal of creating an Islamic state covering all of historic Palestine, including what is now Israel. Hamas has come under increasing pressure to renounce its goal of eliminating Israel, but Hamas leaders have refused."

I had hoped there were new elections scheduled for the PNA, but it seems that the elections that were supposed to be held by October 2014 (at the latest) are now indefinitely delayed. Sigh. This is not going to help peace. Now I just hope that the Israeli electorate will take a chance and move their government towards a more moderate stance. It might happen... there are some good people running against Netanyahu.

The Palestineans voted for Hamas because Fatah are lazy and corrupt. Its a bit like the Greeks voting for Syriza.

You can't freeze out a government when the wrong party wins a free and fair election. The people have to have the freedom to vote for who they want.

 

[snberk103]

The Palestineans voted for Hamas because Fatah are lazy and corrupt. Its a bit like the Greeks voting for Syriza.
..

There were other parties in the PNA election who were against corruption as well. It was obvious Fatah had to be taught a lesson - but there were other alternatives. It is difficult for Israel to deal with Hamas if only because Hamas representatives won't speak directly to Israeli representatives (part of that 'we don't recognize Israel' attitude.) It's why the Egyptians had to mediate the truce agreements for the Gaza war - Hamas wouldn't speak directly to Israel. And now Hamas has pissed of Egypt sufficiently that Egypt has labelled Hamas a terrorist organization - which means that there is no longer 3rd party able to bring the two parties together. This isn't Israel isolating Hamas... this is Hamas doing to themselves.

Where Israel is really screwing up, in my opinion, is not taking a risk with Fatah and making a bold gesture in the West Bank by dismantling a few settlements to show good faith (again - like the 4 West Bank settlements in 2005 - a gesture that was rebuffed with rocket attacks.) I'm hoping that Likud will be out of power in March, and that a new Israeli government will start the process again - and that Abbas will feel threatened enough by Hamas that he'll negotiate with it.

 

[Eraserhead]

There were other parties in the PNA election who were against corruption as well. It was obvious Fatah had to be taught a lesson - but there were other alternatives.

Like?

It is difficult for Israel to deal with Hamas if only because Hamas representatives won't speak directly to Israeli representatives (part of that 'we don't recognize Israel' attitude.)

I've never seen a single shred of evidence that the lack of talks between Hamas and Israel had anything to do with Hamas. Whereas I have seen things like this and this.

Where Israel is really screwing up, in my opinion, is not taking a risk with Fatah and making a bold gesture in the West Bank by dismantling a few settlements

Maybe they should at least actually stop building more settlements, that would be a good starting point for them to at least stop making things worse.

 

[snberk103]

Like?

The full list of Palestinian parties- with platforms - is in the article you linked to yesterday regarding the PNA elections. Thank you for that. There was some interesting information in there.

I've never seen a single shred of evidence that the lack of talks between Hamas and Israel had anything to do with Hamas. ....

"A source close to Hamas' armed wing signaled the group would no longer accept Egypt as a broker between it and Israel. "After the court's decision Egypt is no longer a mediator in Palestinian-Israeli matters," the source told Reuters." Reuters, Jan 31 2015

"Splits emerged at the top of Hamas on Thursday after its deputy leader Moussa Abu Marzouk called for direct talks with the Israeli government, appearing to signal a dramatic shift in policy for the Islamist group....However, a statement refuting his comments was issued on Thursday afternoon by Hamas's press office.
"Direct negotiation with the Zionist enemy is not part of the movement's policy, and it is not even under consideration," the statement said....A move to work directly with Israel would be significant for Hamas as its constitution, written in 1988, states there is no solution to the Palestinian problem except through jihad. Hamas has consistently refused to acknowledge the Jewish state." Sept 2014
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...amas-split-over-direct-talks-with-Israel.html

"TUNIS — Hamas political leader Khaled Mashaal said Friday that the Islamist terror group would not speak directly with Israel, contradicting a statement made Thursday by Hamas deputy leader Moussa Abu Marzouk who said the group could be forced to negotiate directly with Israel — something it has never done before. But Mashaal said this would not happen. “Direct negotiations with the Israeli occupier is not on the agenda of Hamas; if negotiations are necessary they must be indirect,” he said." [My emphasis added]
http://www.timesofisrael.com/mashaal-says-hamas-will-not-speak-to-israel-directly/ Also Sept 2014.

Keeping in mind of course that Hamas is in control of Gaza, where there is no occupation.

 

[Eraserhead]

The full list of Palestinian parties- with platforms - is in the article you linked to yesterday regarding the PNA elections. Thank you for that. There was some interesting information in there.

So they could vote for some minor parties, but the only serious parties are Fatah and Hamas.

That isn't a great choice, but neither is picking between the Democrats and the Republicans in the US.

Minor parties are always ****ing useless, that's the sad truth.

"A source close to Hamas' armed wing signaled the group would no longer accept Egypt as a broker between it and Israel. "After the court's decision Egypt is no longer a mediator in Palestinian-Israeli matters," the source told Reuters." Reuters, Jan 31 2015

Well its quite reasonable for Hamas not to value Egypt as a mediator anymore, they've been too openly bias towards Israel.

"Splits emerged at the top of Hamas on Thursday after its deputy leader Moussa Abu Marzouk called for direct talks with the Israeli government,

Which still makes him better than Netanyahu who won't even go that far.

Keeping in mind of course that Hamas is in control of Gaza, where there is no occupation.

But Gaza is of course a giant prison camp.

 

[snberk103]

So they could vote for some minor parties, but the only serious parties are Fatah and Hamas.

I could make the point that they're minor parties only because the residents of Gaza decided to vote for a party that wanted war not peace. If the residents had voted for the minor parties that advocated peace ... then those parties would be major parties.

...

Which still makes him better than Netanyahu who won't even go that far.

The rest of quote - that is in my text you quoted from - clearly stated that this was a dissident opinion, and that Hamas officially is not, will not, and has not ever spoken directly to Israel. The rest of that text is in my post.

But Gaza is of course a giant prison camp.

A prison camp set up by Egypt in 1949. A prison that was opened up in 2005 - an opportunity squandered by the Palestinian extremists when they pursued violence and war instead of peace. After a massive rocket barrage on Israeli civilians - Israel closed the gate again.

 

[Eraserhead]

I could make the point that they're minor parties only because the residents of Gaza decided to vote for a party that wanted war not peace. If the residents had voted for the minor parties that advocated peace ... then those parties would be major parties.

You could make the same point about the Green Party in the US.

The rest of quote - that is in my text you quoted from - clearly stated that this was a dissident opinion, and that Hamas officially is not, will not, and has not ever spoken directly to Israel. The rest of that text is in my post.

Ok so Hamas is worse than I thought. But they still aren't as bad as israel on negotiation.

A prison camp set up by Egypt in 1949. A prison that was opened up in 2005 - an opportunity squandered by the Palestinian extremists when they pursued violence and war instead of peace.

Most of the time since 2005 there has been peace. And the death count has dropped by well over an order of magnitude.