Tim Cook Meets EU Antitrust Chief Ahead of iPhone App Sideloading Deadline

[WarmWinterHat]

Apple has done a wonderful job of protecting our privacy from invasive apps trying to get access to everything about us. The EU will come to regret this. I can see apple tying to be smart and keeping side loaded apps in a walled garden and the EU going no, they must have access to everything.

The App Store is full of junk, scam apps, apps pretending to be other apps, etc.

The App Store is a wasteland....They haven't done a good job at all.

 

[laptech]

Apple has done a wonderful job of protecting our privacy from invasive apps trying to get access to everything about us. The EU will come to regret this. I can see apple tying to be smart and keeping side loaded apps in a walled garden and the EU going no, they must have access to everything.

Apple for the most part does a good job of protecting it's users privacy and security but they are the ones that get to decide, not the user and that is a problem for the EU The EU is saying that Apple should not be the one that gets to decide what is and is not good for it's users, the users should decide. Yes we know that users can make very bad choices but the thing is they are still given choices.

 

[sw1tcher]

I'm OK with that as long as the iPhone owner bears responsibility for any adverse consequences that comes to them personally, or their iPhone, as a result.

You mean like how it is already with the Mac and Windows PCs or pretty much every other electronic device?

 

[sw1tcher]

it’s not like apple is responsible when you download a scam app that drains your bank account

the owner has ALWAYS been the one responsible

Right. I doubt Apple compensated this person or stepped in to help this person recover their lost Bitcoin due to Apple allowing a scam Bitcoin app onto their App Store.

Bitcoin Scam App Approved by Apple Robs iPhone User of $600,000+

A scam bitcoin app that was designed to look like a genuine app was accepted by Apple's App Store review team and ended up costing iPhone user Phillipe Christodoulou 17.1 bitcoin, or upwards of $600,000 at the time of the theft, reports The Washington Post. Christodoulou wanted to check on his...

www.macrumors.com

In such a case, Apple would bear a certain amount of responsibility if that happened on a large scale.

Did Apple bear any responsibility to this guy?

Bitcoin Scam App Approved by Apple Robs iPhone User of $600,000+

A scam bitcoin app that was designed to look like a genuine app was accepted by Apple's App Store review team and ended up costing iPhone user Phillipe Christodoulou 17.1 bitcoin, or upwards of $600,000 at the time of the theft, reports The Washington Post. Christodoulou wanted to check on his...

www.macrumors.com

Nope.

 

[timber]

The Mac (and Windows) work mainly (and for a lot of people almost exclusively) on "side loading". And the Mac has no problem providing a private and safe platform. I find amazing that so many swallow this ridiculous justification.

"Side loading" itself is a curious expression, already charged to seem something bad, nice things are straight not side or bent or whatever.

That said iOS is not as relevant system in the EU as to be classified as what is now called a gatekeeper system and I do think that smaller systems should work however they want.

 

[Grey Area]

while I agree, if only this were true.
You never own software, it’s always a license.
Even windows, Microsoft can technically revoke your access on your PC at any time if they want to.

Not necessarily in the EU. European courts have ruled that software is sold as a good, not a service. EU citizens own the software they buy. Not the IP - you are still not free to make copies as you please - but you can use this property indefinitely. Companies try to weasel around this with US-style EULAs, pretending it is not actually a sale. But it is a sale, if there is a one-time payment and no specified end date, and companies like Microsoft and Adobe have found their EULAs to be legally non-binding in the EU, e.g. when they tried to prevent people from re-selling their software.

Companies do not have to provide updates forever, though. If my Windows becomes practically useless after X years because of unfixed security issues and 3rd party software assuming a more modern OS, then I'm out of luck. But I'm still free to mess around with my rusty Windows, Microsoft is not allowed to lock me out of it.

 

[toobravetosave]

In such a case, Apple would bear a certain amount of responsibility if that happened on a large scale.

Apple needs to make it clear that you're on your own, with the user acknowledging such, that side-loading can have adverse consequences.

It's about taking personal responsibility for your decisions/choices. I realize that's a foreign concept to many people.

that isn’t how it works in real life. you are already unprotected

facts seem foreign to many people as well

 

[SAIRUS]

Why not create an App Store for App Stores or some procedure to allow side loading? Start with the big companies, buy some time, and then open it up.

You still can mandate that via APIs to access the hardware you protect the heck out of the lower system. I don’t think you can expose out the kernel of the system or some subsystem.

Each company should be allowed to somewhat unique, but if they have gatekeeper status, then they need to address the technical reasoning why they think they have that status. I think Apple could open up payments IF you on an approved list of payment providers BUT if you use Apple as your payment provider, then you owe them the percentage they ask for. Seriously for smaller companies to have a built in option to do in app purchases to get an all in one solution, it’s awesome and takes a lot of the headache out of the process. That said when the product matures, you’ll want to have the option to get more money and it gets cheaper to have an in house solution.

 

[sw1tcher]

Apple has done a wonderful job of protecting our privacy from invasive apps trying to get access to everything about us.

I suggest you spend some time looking at some of the apps available in Apple's App Store. Look under the sections that show the "Data Used to Track You" and "Data Linked to You" (data that's collected and linked to you) for each app.

If Apple is truly looking out for our privacy, these apps either wouldn't be allowed onto the App Store or they wouldn't be allowed to collected all this data and link it to us.

But this is what we get:

 

[JosephAW]

Wondering how much cash was exchanged 🙄

 

[klasma]

You never own software, it’s always a license.
Even windows, Microsoft can technically revoke your access on your PC at any time if they want to.

Not legally in the EU. You own your copy of the software here.

 

[JosephAW]

When Apple is forced to sideload I hope they go all the way and create a sandbox for running Android apps to help transition purchases from Android stores to Apple devices. 🙄

 

[sw1tcher]

The Mac (and Windows) work mainly (and for a lot of people almost exclusively) on "side loading". And the Mac has no problem providing a private and safe platform. I find amazing that so many swallow this ridiculous justification.

I'm afraid they might have been brainwashed misled by statements made by Craig Federighi during his testimony, thereby reinforcing their previously held (and false) beliefs

Apple exec Craig Federighi calls the state of Mac malware 'not acceptable' - Engadget

Faced with a legal battle that could decide the future of its business, the company offered a surprising admission: macOS has a malware problem.

www.engadget.com

 

[JosephAW]

Why do I have this feeling that sideloading will only work for EU iOS users and not in the USA. 🙄

 

[Timo_Existencia]

For a long time defenders of Apple have been stating that sideloading apps has the potential to be extremely problematic because apps would be hosted by a 3rd party who may not do their own checks to see if what they are hosting is legitimate or a virus/malicious app. The thing is, that could well be the case BUT the point that keeps on getting missed is when it comes to consumerism, the EU is all about customer choice, let the customer decide what is best for them, not the manufacturer. The problem the EU see's with Apple is that Apple is the one that gets to decide what is and is not good for the customer, the customer not being able to make their own choice(s).

Excepting if the company & the device aren’t considered gatekeepers, right? If they aren’t, then the EU doesn’t care about this choice you speak of?

 

[iLoveDeveloping]

We have a right to do anything with the hardware WE buy. Apple is too over-controlling over the things we can and cant do.

Said like a real android user. Bet you use PCs too. Not everyone wants the platform brought down because you want to install something not on the App Store. Just buy a different phone and let the rest of us have a secure walled garden thanks. 🙄

 

[klasma]

Can't you just jailbreak the phone? As I understand it, in the US at least, that is legal. But Apple isn't required to do it for you.

Currently there are no jailbreaks for iPhones with an A12 and up for iOS 16 and up. It’s usually only older models and/or older iOS versions, and Apple may eventually manage to make the system completely airtight. An additional problem is that banking apps and the like detect when they are running on a jailbroken device and then refuse operation. It’s just not practical.

 

[sw1tcher]

Said like a real android user. Bet you use PCs too. Not everyone wants the platform brought down because you want to install something not on the App Store. Just buy a different phone and let the rest of us have a secure walled garden thanks. 🙄

How will your secure walled garden disappear if you don't use a 3rd party app store or sideload install apps outside of Apple's App Store?

You don't have to be a PC user to sideload apps. You can sideload apps on the Mac as well.

 

[iLoveDeveloping]

The App Store is full of junk, scam apps, apps pretending to be other apps, etc.

The App Store is a wasteland....They haven't done a good job at all.

That’s just not true at all. I don’t know what apps you are looking for?! Yes there is junk. It’s hardly full of spam and junk apps, that’s absolutely false.

 

[iLoveDeveloping]

How will your secure walled garden disappear if you don't use a 3rd party app store or sideload install apps outside of Apple's App Store?

If you don’t know the answer to that, then I'm not here to teach you. Maybe go learn about it yourself.

 

[erikkfi]

The Mac (and Windows) work mainly (and for a lot of people almost exclusively) on "side loading". And the Mac has no problem providing a private and safe platform. I find amazing that so many swallow this ridiculous justification.

"Side loading" itself is a curious expression, already charged to seem something bad, nice things are straight not side or bent or whatever.

That said iOS is not as relevant system in the EU as to be classified as what is now called a gatekeeper system and I do think that smaller systems should work however they want.

Now here's a guy who knows how to sit on a fence.

 

[1129846]

I'm OK with that as long as the iPhone owner bears responsibility for any adverse consequences that comes to them personally, or their iPhone, as a result.

Apple is not right now when you install a bad app from the App store.
Apple app store review process does not really keep you as safe as you think. It is super easy to get around the reviewers so they would never catch it so never relay on it.

Ways to get around it is remote configurations files. Feature flags that again are controlled remotely. Apple could screen the API calls but again nothing there to trip something or stand out as the remote configurations setup is there for after the fact.
Also Apple can not remove the remote configurations as most major companies use some type of remote settings or some control including Apple. It is a great way to turn on or off a feature to a more control setup or do AB testing. Basically dont relay on apple to keep you safe. Same rules apply.

 

[1129846]

Not necessarily in the EU. European courts have ruled that software is sold as a good, not a service. EU citizens own the software they buy. Not the IP - you are still not free to make copies as you please - but you can use this property indefinitely. Companies try to weasel around this with US-style EULAs, pretending it is not actually a sale. But it is a sale, if there is a one-time payment and no specified end date, and companies like Microsoft and Adobe have found their EULAs to be legally non-binding in the EU, e.g. when they tried to prevent people from re-selling their software.

Companies do not have to provide updates forever, though. If my Windows becomes practically useless after X years because of unfixed security issues and 3rd party software assuming a more modern OS, then I'm out of luck. But I'm still free to mess around with my rusty Windows, Microsoft is not allowed to lock me out of it.

Lets be honest even in the US a lot of the EULA are non enforceable but standard scare you into trying it. Most of them have not been challenged heavy in court.

 

[citysnaps]

You mean like how it is already with the Mac and Windows PCs or pretty much every other electronic device?

No. Ever since the App Store opened, people have come to expect Apple has had their back that apps have been thoroughly vetted for privacy and security attacks. With many thousands of submitted apps being rejected for those reasons yearly since 2008.

Most of the 1 Billion+ iPhone users aren't as tech-sophisticated as you and everyone here. They're just regular consumers (store clerks, librarians, police officers, real estate agents, school teachers, and on and on).

As a result, in the future when they side load an app, they're going to assume it will cause no harm because that's the way it has been for the last 16 years downloading apps from the App Store with Apple rejecting those many thousands of nefarious apps.

Sadly, that won't be the case. Thus Apple needs to educate and let people know that side loading presents potential risks to the user's privacy and security, and expecting the user to take an extra one second to press the Acknowledge button to proceed.

Not a big deal. Though I expect many here will feel very put out having to press that button.

 

[timber]

Now here's a guy who knows how to sit on a fence.

It really is my opinion.

I do think Android should be forced to allow "side loading" as it is a dominant platform in the EU. And not the "different appstores" approach or the "go to remote menu to select option nobody knows about" approach. The Mac and Windows approach.