Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

simonmet

Cancelled
Sep 9, 2012
2,666
3,663
Sydney
Well done to Ireland for taking the benefits of EU membership while simultaneously screwing over the rest of Europe... I guess.

Pretty sure the rest of the EU is trying to put a stop to that as we speak.

And yet Tim wont set up an Apple store in the Republic!

That has got to be because of one of the loopholes they’re exploiting. There’s simply no other possible explanation for it. Thanks global corporations! How moral of you!
 

The Mercurian

macrumors 68020
Mar 17, 2012
2,153
2,440
In 2018, Apple abandoned plans to build a $1 billion data center in Ireland after facing significant pushback from local residents concerned about its potential effects on local animals and its close proximity to a shut-down nuclear power plant.

Close proximity to shut down nuclear plant? There was never a nuclear plant in Ireland. This was just some nutters abuse the planning appeals process to be obstructionist.

Ireland has received billions of dollars in tax revenue over the years, for products that were sold in other countries.
No they didn't that's what the whole problem is. They were supposed to recieve that moeny and they chose not to.

Well done to Ireland for taking the benefits of EU membership while simultaneously screwing over the rest of the EU... I guess.

There was no screwing over of the rest of the EU - just the Irish tax payer.
 

timber

macrumors 65816
Aug 30, 2006
1,140
2,090
Lisbon
Well done to Ireland for taking the benefits of EU membership while simultaneously screwing over the rest of Europe... I guess.

Pretty sure the rest of the EU is trying to put a stop to that as we speak.



That has got to be because of one of the loopholes they’re exploiting. There’s simply no other possible explanation for it. Thanks global corporations! How moral of you!
While Apple or Ireland or both or whatever (take your pick) has indeed done that the problem isn't that.

Setting taxes such as Ireland does is allowed.

Apple didn't even pay the low Irish taxes they payed almost zero.
 

simonmet

Cancelled
Sep 9, 2012
2,666
3,663
Sydney
I beg to differ @The Mercurian

Ireland has benefited enormously from these deals but the EU is missing out on huge amounts of tax revenue, which is the very thing they’re chasing. Apple pays virtually no tax in the other countries.

Why else is this handsome Leo guy so happy to schmooze Apple and offer him these silly awards?

Sorry, but if I was in another EU country, I’d be mighty pissed off with Ireland, and the Netherlands for that matter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Woyzeck and Zmaster

Glockworkorange

Suspended
Feb 10, 2015
2,511
4,184
Chicago, Illinois
Yet not one Apple store. And now no manufacturing either. So the investment is basically offices for their financial workers?
Does Apple manufacture their own products? I think the actual assembly lines are all contracted out, so not sure if you will ever see actual Apple manufacturing anywhere outside of the labs in Cupertino.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PC_tech

az431

Suspended
Sep 13, 2008
2,131
6,122
Portland, OR
I do.

But the 40 years of investment, should be called 40 years of Tax Minimization. Nothing less, nothing more.

Call it whatever you want. Apple and Ireland have both benefitted.

I'm certain you don't voluntarily pay as much as possible in taxes to be charitable, yet you come on here and act like Apple doing the same thing is somehow wrong.
 
Last edited:

Ronald Reagan

macrumors regular
Dec 9, 2016
130
217
Actually, it’s the EU that‘s the joke, with their backwards policies and regulations. Ireland ought to have their own Brexit.

Ireland has received billions of dollars in tax revenue over the years, for products that were sold in other countries. Apple has also spent nearly a billion dollars on offices and factories in Ireland, and employs over 6,000 Irish workers.

if there is a joke here, then the joke is on you.

[automerge]1578575281[/automerge]


And you don’t try to minimize your taxes?

Please.

If the EU doesn't want companies avoiding taxes by setting up tax shelters then it should enact laws that prohibit such tax shelters. There is nothing illegal or immoral about what Ireland and Apple have done, and it is done by every corporation and individual who is required to file and pay taxes.
 

az431

Suspended
Sep 13, 2008
2,131
6,122
Portland, OR
Yet not one Apple store. And now no manufacturing either. So the investment is basically offices for their financial workers?

Maybe you should do a little bit of research before posting:


The Ireland factory is, in fact, Apple's ONLY self-operated manufacturing operation. Apple also employs hundreds of people within Ireland who work in customer service, app review, engineering, sales.

The lack of a retail store is meaningless. An Apple Store would barely move the needle on the overall employee count and revenue in Ireland.
 

Anarchy99

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2003
1,041
1,034
CA
Close proximity to shut down nuclear plant? There was never a nuclear plant in Ireland. This was just some nutters abuse the planning appeals process to be obstructionist.
no one argues that Ireland has or had nuclear power, its actually currently against the law for them to do so.
but anyway...

Apple was arguing they wanted to put the datacenter where they wanted in Galway County because that specific site was the only one that met their requirement of being within 320km from a nuclear power station.
the nearest nuclear facility to the proposed site was the Wylfa Nuclear Power Station which is located in Wales and is approximately 280km away. (they, however didnt mention or didn't notice? it had been decommissioned a few years earlier.)
the next closest station was Sellafield in the UK about 370km away despite breaking there own arbirary rule they still wanted the Derrydonnell Forest location in Galway County

as opposed to the other areas Ireland Gov't wanted to have them setup near other corporations datacenter's and other such zoned area's.
personally i think it was apple just wanting that pretty location and being Apple and using any excuses to try to get it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peza19

The Mercurian

macrumors 68020
Mar 17, 2012
2,153
2,440
I beg to differ @The Mercurian

Ireland has benefited enormously from these deals but the EU is missing out on huge amounts of tax revenue, which is the very thing they’re chasing. Apple pays virtually no tax in the other countries.

Why else is this handsome Leo guy so happy to schmooze Apple and offer him these silly awards?

Sorry, but if I was in another EU country, I’d be mighty pissed off with Ireland, and the Netherlands for that matter.

You clearly don't understand how tax works in the EU. The tax revenue was never due in the EU, only in Ireland. Ireland didnt' collect it. The EU did not miss out tax revenue. Other EU countries are pissed thats why they investigated but they dont' get any of the tax once Apple pays it over because its Irish tax not EU tax. Ireland benefited in others ways such as employment but it was never the case that IReland took the EUs tax income away - thats just not how the EU works.

no one argues that Ireland has or had nuclear power, its actually currently against the law for them to do so.
but anyway...

Apple was arguing they wanted to put the datacenter where they wanted in Galway County because that specific site was the only one that met their requirement of being within 320km from a nuclear power station.
the nearest nuclear facility to the proposed site was the Wylfa Nuclear Power Station which is located in Wales and is approximately 280km away. (they, however didnt mention or didn't notice? it had been decommissioned a few years earlier.)
the next closest station was Sellafield in the UK about 370km away despite breaking there own arbirary rule they still wanted the Derrydonnell Forest location in Galway County

as opposed to the other areas Ireland Gov't wanted to have them setup near other corporations datacenter's and other such zoned area's.
personally i think it was apple just wanting that pretty location and being Apple and using any excuses to try to get it.

Ok there was a long crazy ass story about this whole decision but there were basically 3 main complainants to the proposed site. Only one genuniely seemed to be affectd by the Apple plant wrecking her view. One other was some guy who tried to set up his own data centre and got turned down so then objected to Apples one, the third guy is basically an professional environmental protestor who complained because the factory would not use renewable energy or something. He also complained about some Microsoft planning application in another part of Ireland and other developments too. These folks won their appeal against planning. The nuclear plant thing was some side issue I believe. The full story is bonkers but I've not time to look up details again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SarcasticJoe

needsomecoffee

macrumors 6502
May 6, 2008
423
936
Seattle
About 30+ years ago, a finance team analyzed where HP's first Inkjet lines outside the US would be located. First choice was Singapore, a country without much if any high-tech mfg at the time. But extensive tax breaks. HP became a beacon for high tech investment there as the yields from those lines soon out performed the US ones, and HP definitely enjoyed its tax breaks. A bit later taxes on Inkjet imports into Europe necessitated lines in a European country. Who won: Ireland (see link below). Sadly for everyone, Carli took over a few years later, and rather than continue with some incredible research using Inkjet for things like health care she bought Compaq. (This was, I believe, the "organic" growth Bill Hewlett alluded to - but could not talk openly about - when he fought Carli's plan via a proxy fight.) While there is much about Tim I dislike, he - unilke Carli - kept the ship moving in the right direction, and we now have controversies like how much tax Ireland has helped Apple (and likely HP if Bill had won) avoid.

Link:
 

whooleytoo

macrumors 604
Aug 2, 2002
6,607
716
Cork, Ireland.
This is a good joke from the Irish - Apple invested in Ireland only because of the tax agreement between Apple and Ireland - Apple paid very low Irish taxes, and did not have to pay other taxes anywhere else in EU, as the business was run from Ireland.
EU was right in demanding that Apple pays full Irish taxes.

I'm not aware of any specific agreement between Apple and Ireland, I believe the tax 'loophole' that Apple availed of was opened to everyone. For that reason, I think the basis of the decision against Apple was flawed.

Ireland had/has a low corporate tax rate, an English speaking population and a Government extremely keen on foreign investment, which were all good reasons for Apple to invest here. Of course, Apple took it further and found loopholes in Irish corporate/tax law allowing them to funnel non-Irish generated revenue through Irish registered companies, where it weren't liable for taxation since it wasn't accrued here.

So I - even as an Irish person - don't see how Ireland should be due taxes from Apple. If anyone is, it's other EU countries who were shortchanged by Apple's opportunism and Ireland's (incompetence/naivety/cunning), and it's they who should benefit from any tax fine.
 

Wiesenlooser

macrumors 6502a
Jul 9, 2010
981
1,539
Close proximity to shut down nuclear plant? There was never a nuclear plant in Ireland. This was just some nutters abuse the planning appeals process to be obstructionist.


No they didn't that's what the whole problem is. They were supposed to recieve that moeny and they chose not to.

There was no screwing over of the rest of the EU - just the Irish tax payer.

Well that is just incredbly myopic. Of course the rest of the EU was screwed, because Apple paid close to zero taxes for business created in the EU-member states. Due to tax optimization, the tax streams were delegated towards Ireland - where the country opted to not collect these taxes. This, of course, was the deal for Apple to be in Ireland anyway. Both Ireland and Apple profited from this constellation, to the disadvantage of all the other member states.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zmaster

whooleytoo

macrumors 604
Aug 2, 2002
6,607
716
Cork, Ireland.
6,000 staff are currently employed by Apple in Cork and when the factory first opened and up until the early 2000s computers were assembled in Cork. So it’s hardly a shell company, but a 12.5% corporation tax helps.
Irish RTE News Report from 1980

Like any other non-EU international business you need a local location to sell into the local EU market, Ireland has become very successful at being that location for US multinationals. Their corporate tax rate definitely helps, but so does speaking English and having an economic model that more closely follows the USA than any other European country.

Yup. As far as I'm aware it's mostly sales and support now, but in previous years there was PCB & unit assembly, localisation, hardware & software QA, development, even some hardware design one (I know of at least one Mac model designed in Cork).
 

macduke

macrumors G5
Jun 27, 2007
13,101
19,603
Tim Apple should be giving Ireland an award instead for saving them so much money on taxes.
 

The Mercurian

macrumors 68020
Mar 17, 2012
2,153
2,440
Well that is just incredbly myopic. Of course the rest of the EU was screwed, because Apple paid close to zero taxes for business created in the EU-member states. Due to tax optimization, the tax streams were delegated towards Ireland - where the country opted to not collect these taxes. This, of course, was the deal for Apple to be in Ireland anyway. Both Ireland and Apple profited from this constellation, to the disadvantage of all the other member states.

But almost all of what you say here is simply how the EU works. Each country in the EU can set their own corporate tax rate and all countries agreed to that on signing the treaties. The only part that is questionable is did Ireland break the rules specifically with Apple? Personally i think they did a special deal for Apple but the Irish government maintains everything is above board. The point stands though - the only people directly screwed out of the 13billion were the Irish tax payer and competitors to Apple within Ireland itself. Since this tax deal arose long after Ireland set up their European headquarters in Ireland you should note.
 

Plutonius

macrumors G3
Feb 22, 2003
9,018
8,379
New Hampshire, USA
But the 40 years of investment, should be called 40 years of Tax Minimization. Nothing less, nothing more.

Any bets that Apple will start pulling out of Ireland if the EU doesn't rule for Apple in the appeal ?

Apple is a corporation and there is little reason to stay in Ireland if Apple can no longer minimize taxes there.

Maybe Tim is waiting on Brexit ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: -BigMac-

The Mercurian

macrumors 68020
Mar 17, 2012
2,153
2,440
Any bets that Apple will start pulling out of Ireland if the EU doesn't rule for Apple in the appeal ?

Apple is a corporation and there is little reason to stay in Ireland if Apple can no longer minimize taxes there.

Maybe Tim is waiting on Brexit ?

Whats Brexit got to do with it? ?
 

citysnaps

macrumors G4
Oct 10, 2011
11,788
25,531
Funny how so many people here get so worked up about taxation in a country they don't live in.

Just another sign Apple has so much power of their daily lives. Astonishing. And probably not healthy.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.