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Time for real television?
- Thread starter Topfry
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I think you can have both, if you like; it’s only a discussion about possible tech trends, no one is saying don’t exercise, don’t work, don’t do things yourself. Personally I’m all for self reliance, but... my tv has too many attached boxes inputting and only one output, my smart home kit doesn’t talk to each other without a number of hubs and my tv is getting old - I could do with something simplifying that situation, and nobody is providing that yet, Apple are more than halfway there and need a competitive strategy with smart speakers. I believe a lot of people are also looking for a similar outcome.
That is what technology does though. It makes some things easier, and in turn will make us lazier
. My house is a full on smart home, but I absolutely love it. Everything works and I enjoy it.
What could apple do differently that would entice consumers to buy a television produced by them?
We are talking about a mature product that has very little innovation left in its life cycle, the margins for tvs are no where near what apple typically enjoys. Finally would they be pricing them high like all of their other apple products, inversely will the tv buying public be willing to spend even more money on a tv from apple when they can get something just as good from other makers.
We are talking about a mature product that has very little innovation left in its life cycle, the margins for tvs are no where near what apple typically enjoys. Finally would they be pricing them high like all of their other apple products, inversely will the tv buying public be willing to spend even more money on a tv from apple when they can get something just as good from other makers.
I just don’t think there is a market for that product at what would presumably be a higher price point than separate stand-alone televisions and set-top boxes. Unless Apple develops some sort of revolutionary display technology, very few people would be willing to pay a lot more for an integrated Apple television. Most people now wait at least five years or more before upgrading or replacing their televisions. Set-top boxes can become obsolete on that sort of time table. People aren’t going to want to have to replace their entire consolidated TVs as frequently as every 2 or 3 years.
Big-screen LED monitor? I don't think so. Though I wouldn't rule out new tech such as projection displays or anything involving AR.
Holo-table anyone?
Holo-table anyone?
Television as it currently stands is mature, yes. Your question is exactly what I’m trying to ask, and I’m not even sure what Apple’s version of an answer to it could be. But even if you do the bog-basic thing of sticking a modem, Apple TV and homehub in a current tv panel there would be immediate benefits; for one reliable compatibility within the ecosystem and reliable resolution and av plus control of streamed and broadcast. An initial version would also benefit greatly from multiple I/O. It’s not really a computer, not really a modem not really a television - but a new thing. I think, as I may have already said, that a new focus as a smart home hub has gravity.
I always doubted that there was any benefit to taking the ATV past a set top box, in terms of manufacturing costs and compatibility. But with smart speakers, homehubs, smart home kit, Apple watches, the new TiVo, the LG set I linked to just seems there’s space for a simplification and a market for it now, perhaps Moreso than before.
The simplification of the smart home, will be done by way of the smart speaker, i.e., an Amazon Echo product that to tell to turn up the lights, or run the dryer. I don't see a television doing any of that. I also don't believe there is a market for apple to produce a tv.
One of the new moves in smart speakers is adding a display. See echo show, echo spot. Cue even said a display is worthwhile in a smart speaker. Your question: “what could Apple do differently that could entice consumers to buy a television from them?” What could Apple do to differentiate from a dozen other smart speakers? What can they do that they already do, and take it a small leap forward?
That's not a TV.
The good thing about the Echo is that you can have multiple models in every room, that's not really something you can do with the tv. The TV is a legacy device that may see some improvements but imo, it will not be part of the smart home solution. At least in terms of being the major hub to control everything. I see the smaller inexpensive Echo type devices coupled with your phones.
Again to bring it back to the main topic, I don't see apple rolling out a TV, there's just nothing that apple can add that will entice the general public to buy it. They have their apple-tv product and that's the focus they're going to have.
Not wanting to overstate the point, but just to clarify; no it isn’t a tv, it’s a possible reworking of a tv. In the same way that a current ATV isn’t just a streaming device, or a video recorder, or a computer. If someone makes this, LG almost have just not in the Apple ecosystem, it won’t be a tv. The main topic is: is it now time for a new ATV (with a screen) since one competitor at least (and let’s see what else pops up at CES) is taking this very approach?
Go buy a moderately priced Samsung or LG TV, velcro an AppleTV to the back, cover the logo with an Apple sticker, and go burn an extra $500 to $1000. There you go. Instant Apple Television.
Seriously though, all Apple devices have an Apple tax applied. For many products, I can justify paying it but not for a TV.
Plus, the display will outlast the internal smarts by many years anyway. I wish manufacturers would make the best TVs as completely dumb displays without even speakers. It's much better to keep the "smart" part of "smart TVs" as external devices that can easily be upgraded.
Seriously though, all Apple devices have an Apple tax applied. For many products, I can justify paying it but not for a TV.
Plus, the display will outlast the internal smarts by many years anyway. I wish manufacturers would make the best TVs as completely dumb displays without even speakers. It's much better to keep the "smart" part of "smart TVs" as external devices that can easily be upgraded.
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Apart from the Apple markup for the same LG/Samsung/Whatever panel, the problem will come when something fails, as it will. Apple seem to seal up their products making hard to crack open claiming form and aesthetics. Already paid a lot for the LG panel and it is superb. A few mm thick for the screen part.
My TV, LG, 3D failed to function. It was under manufacturer warranty so the authorised repair firm attended and replaced the screen and main control board. The fella doing the repair had not opened up this particular model before but had repaired LG (and others), in 30 mins he had replaced the screen and main control board and buttoned it all back up and all was OK and tested.
I imagine Apple would require you lug a 55" or larger back to a store where they can repair such a beast unless they made such a thing as easily repairable which I doubt is in their mind set at the moment.
The screen can function fine to a certain standard for many years, the plug in devices will get updated, it is easier to update that way then bin the whole thing as I suspect ease of upgrade will not be built in, especially by Apple.
Plugged into my TV, I have a Samsung player, a Humax box supplied by my ISP, and a Apple TV. They all work through HDMI standard and do not care what is on the end of them. It just works (for me anyway )
My TV, LG, 3D failed to function. It was under manufacturer warranty so the authorised repair firm attended and replaced the screen and main control board. The fella doing the repair had not opened up this particular model before but had repaired LG (and others), in 30 mins he had replaced the screen and main control board and buttoned it all back up and all was OK and tested.
I imagine Apple would require you lug a 55" or larger back to a store where they can repair such a beast unless they made such a thing as easily repairable which I doubt is in their mind set at the moment.
The screen can function fine to a certain standard for many years, the plug in devices will get updated, it is easier to update that way then bin the whole thing as I suspect ease of upgrade will not be built in, especially by Apple.
Plugged into my TV, I have a Samsung player, a Humax box supplied by my ISP, and a Apple TV. They all work through HDMI standard and do not care what is on the end of them. It just works (for me anyway
)
Apart from the Apple markup for the same LG/Samsung/Whatever panel, the problem will come when something fails, as it will. Apple seem to seal up their products making hard to crack open claiming form and aesthetics. Already paid a lot for the LG panel and it is superb. A few mm thick for the screen part.
My TV, LG, 3D failed to function. It was under manufacturer warranty so the authorised repair firm attended and replaced the screen and main control board. The fella doing the repair had not opened up this particular model before but had repaired LG (and others), in 30 mins he had replaced the screen and main control board and buttoned it all back up and all was OK and tested.
I imagine Apple would require you lug a 55" or larger back to a store where they can repair such a beast unless they made such a thing as easily repairable which I doubt is in their mind set at the moment.
The screen can function fine to a certain standard for many years, the plug in devices will get updated, it is easier to update that way then bin the whole thing as I suspect ease of upgrade will not be built in, especially by Apple.
Plugged into my TV, I have a Samsung player, a Humax box supplied by my ISP, and a Apple TV. They all work through HDMI standard and do not care what is on the end of them. It just works (for me anyway
Sure - a lot, if not most, people have setups like this, myself included. Is there anything that could be better? Yes - at the very least less boxes, wires and more compatibility - there are only so many av channels and hdmi ports - and reducing the amount of power consumption seems like a good thing. Some of these new sets seems to cover mostly what I think I want, but they don’t have an ecosystem. Maybe I want too much, but I would rather have fewer brands controlling my stuff. I fully appreciate the idea that if you keep all your eggs in one place then the whole lot can fail; not buying just Apple seems to be an advantage in the long run.
TV broadcast seems to be universally acknowledged to be in a state of change, under pressure from streaming, internet connectivity, interoperability and demanding technical standards. The current tv, such as it is, is designed for over the air broadcast, with internet and smart capabilities addded on. That’s why we all have another three, four or more things plugged into it, all consuming extra power and adding complexity. It may be that a dumb monitor with a hub is the way to go, it may be an integrated Apple TV is the way to go, but over time it will become more and more redundant in its current form, and seems to have been teetering there for some time. I guess something will be invented by somebody at some point, and then we’ll all buy it...
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Less would be nice but in reality that will not happen, no disagreement on the clutter.
However.
Example, the way a TV picture is defined and set down in a list of standards, the method of transmission is also covered, the interface at the HDMI socket must meet standards and so on. This allows me to buy a TV, my case LG. If I then want to go elsewhere for streaming I can, it plugs into the complaint socket and I am not tied to Apple. Same for the bluray. and so on. At some point I might decide that Apple are getting a bit too expensive or move to an area where streaming is not a reality due to poor internet. I have lost flexibility.
Modular will allow me to continue watching my set when the manufacturer stops supporting the app for netflix or iPlayer etc. Another example is my ISP supplies me with a box, 1TB hard drive, 4k etc. etc. Lots of channels as part of the deal, both terrestrial and streaming. I would still need that with an Apple TV.
Then I may favour the Panny or Samsung 4k bluray player. Or the Oppo, how would I spec that? Then on top of that would be repair/replace. Though I think the days (years maybe) of disc players are limited if ISP's up the rates.
Then you have OLED vs anything else. People like different screens, Apple would have to create quite a diverse product to sell to all tastes. And unlike the computer or phone, I suspect people are more ruthless with their loot with TV's, making the Apple project manager panic that they may never break even.
All that to watch a soap opera in SD......
However.
Example, the way a TV picture is defined and set down in a list of standards, the method of transmission is also covered, the interface at the HDMI socket must meet standards and so on. This allows me to buy a TV, my case LG. If I then want to go elsewhere for streaming I can, it plugs into the complaint socket and I am not tied to Apple. Same for the bluray. and so on. At some point I might decide that Apple are getting a bit too expensive or move to an area where streaming is not a reality due to poor internet. I have lost flexibility.
Modular will allow me to continue watching my set when the manufacturer stops supporting the app for netflix or iPlayer etc. Another example is my ISP supplies me with a box, 1TB hard drive, 4k etc. etc. Lots of channels as part of the deal, both terrestrial and streaming. I would still need that with an Apple TV.
Then I may favour the Panny or Samsung 4k bluray player. Or the Oppo, how would I spec that? Then on top of that would be repair/replace. Though I think the days (years maybe) of disc players are limited if ISP's up the rates.
Then you have OLED vs anything else. People like different screens, Apple would have to create quite a diverse product to sell to all tastes. And unlike the computer or phone, I suspect people are more ruthless with their loot with TV's, making the Apple project manager panic that they may never break even.
All that to watch a soap opera in SD......
I would hope that if they came up with something it would have external hdmi for blu ray etc. Personally I think they would push for a streaming only kind of experience, and it would be up to you to provide a tuner if you wanted one. So it would basically still be modular, but more Apple focussed. I can’t see how flexibility is reduced if you have say a notional ATV with an external Freesat tuner or free play tuner, the aim being to tempt you to go streaming only - presumably via an Apple media service that they will presumably get round to expanding once they make original content. The tech isn’t unusual, but the service provision is currently undefined. (You can get NOW, amazon prime and Netflix and most catchup already in the U.K. so there are alternative streaming options anyway).
Apple seem to dictate their choice of technology to customers, (this is what you want this is best); I don’t think they would offer a choice of screen tech it would just be OLED or Nano LED or whatever they assess as most promising.
The issues, as I see them, seem to be:
will your internet provider offer unlimited downloads - and there are currently many options for that at least in the U.K.
Will there be enough I/o on the device - it would presumably turn away potential customers if there weren’t.
Will there be enough content - the current device achieves that through apps
What will it offer that is different to the competition - I would propose it would be media/smart home hub. Lots of people seem to think speakers will fulfil all smart home requirements, but I think they are limited, although not currently reaching their full potential; you can already see all the players beginning to add displays to them. TVs are already culturally centre of the home (despite the few people who like to play dominoes at the beach)
I see the current situation like the place we were with landlines before mobiles took over, something of a shift in outlook is beginning to happen. There are lots of complaints about the desirability of live tv, and compliments about the programming on streaming services. Even if they don’t make such a thing, some of the upcoming TVs are offering a very similar approach to this - the difference for Apple is their content, their apps, their ecosystem of interconnected products. Similar can now be said of amazon and google, so I kind of think something is going to emerge in this space.
Apple seem to dictate their choice of technology to customers, (this is what you want this is best); I don’t think they would offer a choice of screen tech it would just be OLED or Nano LED or whatever they assess as most promising.
The issues, as I see them, seem to be:
will your internet provider offer unlimited downloads - and there are currently many options for that at least in the U.K.
Will there be enough I/o on the device - it would presumably turn away potential customers if there weren’t.
Will there be enough content - the current device achieves that through apps
What will it offer that is different to the competition - I would propose it would be media/smart home hub. Lots of people seem to think speakers will fulfil all smart home requirements, but I think they are limited, although not currently reaching their full potential; you can already see all the players beginning to add displays to them. TVs are already culturally centre of the home (despite the few people who like to play dominoes at the beach)
I see the current situation like the place we were with landlines before mobiles took over, something of a shift in outlook is beginning to happen. There are lots of complaints about the desirability of live tv, and compliments about the programming on streaming services. Even if they don’t make such a thing, some of the upcoming TVs are offering a very similar approach to this - the difference for Apple is their content, their apps, their ecosystem of interconnected products. Similar can now be said of amazon and google, so I kind of think something is going to emerge in this space.
Apple sell a bracket that you can attach to the back of your TV that holds your ATV, it’s meant for wall mounted TV’s but would do the same job as Velcro.
Roland
If Apple is working on an TV, then you can say goodbye to free-to-air TV shows... No antenna connection, why would you have Eithernet?, Since the the goal is to go over internet/ISP cable channels
Before we ditch that old HD antenna cable, we may wanna think first just how much of the TV channels stream live at all...
In my area, only some do, but other times they are nothing but catch-up..... I wanna watch live,, not catch up stuff.. (and that relies on rights at the time)
so there is still a ways to go before we get there. Otherwise we'd be in that space of "umm.. which network does live channels and which ones don't". So we gotta think differently..
Free to air TV was so much easier on the mind
Would be good, but i think everyone is turning to "control" away from the users.
ie. there are cloud-based DVR like with Hulu TV beta, but the fact its cloud based means they are in control.
Before we ditch that old HD antenna cable, we may wanna think first just how much of the TV channels stream live at all...
In my area, only some do, but other times they are nothing but catch-up..... I wanna watch live,, not catch up stuff.. (and that relies on rights at the time)
so there is still a ways to go before we get there. Otherwise we'd be in that space of "umm.. which network does live channels and which ones don't". So we gotta think differently..
Free to air TV was so much easier on the mind
Would be good, but i think everyone is turning to "control" away from the users.
ie. there are cloud-based DVR like with Hulu TV beta, but the fact its cloud based means they are in control.
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if you were to be able to attch external tuners to it by say an rg6 cable then youre covered until you move away from broadcast. One main point im trying to make is that with the integration of services in most new tvs the atv in its current form is redundant; wherelse can it go now except a full blown integrated atelevision? Or, of course, discontinuation.
Attaching external turner though would be kinda messy though. There would need go be a change. I still think there is no market for an Apple television. An external device is easier to manage than an all-in-one..
But there must be a change from tv station to switch *all* their channels to view "what is on now.." and not just drill down to What's important like Live News etc.. cover sports as well.
Since Apple is not offering a bundle yet, there is no pressure because people pay for what they want anyway now.
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I do agree with what your saying, I did until more recently share the same outlook; but why is it messy to have an external tuner, and not messy to have a set top box?
There was somebody discussing the future of the tv app recently, and how it could potentially make recording redundant, and how it might be better to integrate streaming services directly into the tv app rather than as a separate app. Maybe this is the way to go, although it goes against the future is apps banner line Apple uses? I think the set top box has been a toe dipping manoeuvre for Apple all this time, the ‘courageous’ commitment in this area I now really feel needs to be bigger. God knows they can afford it.
This whole discussion reminds me why I hate Smart TV's in general. I love my Apple TV 4K, but hate the OS in my 2015 4K Sony. The processor is already sluggish and makes me want to buy a new TV. I want to go back to having a "dumb" TV and every few years just upgrading my Apple TV or whatever set-top box I decide to go with.
I friggin hate Smart TVs.