Time to kill the Air and drop the 12" Macbook to $999.

[BigMcGuire]

My Macbook Air 11 - 2015 is the best laptop I've ever had (and still have). With my light usage I get 12+ hours of battery life. The keyboard is awesome to type on. I take it on all my work meetings for notes, powerpoint projecting, etc... and it's light so I take it in my backpack. Love the thing. I paid under $800 for it at Best Buy during one of their promotions. I can plug it into my Dell Ultrasharp monitor to program on it when I remote into my Windows work machine. It's just a perfect mobile computing device.

I'm sorry to see them not being continued, especially at their price point.

 

[sracer]

"Better in every way" is not subjective or hyperbole, the M3 rMB outperforms (or at the very worst is equal 3800s/6500m) to the base MBA (3400s/6500m based on GeekBench), it has a better screen, it's smaller and lighter. MBA is a better price point only. Where personal opinion comes in is things like a "better keyboard" or "better connectivity".. those are subjective. Technically the keyboard is "better", but subjectively people are not used to it, so dismiss it or ridicule it.

You are embracing contradictory positions. Claiming objectivity on elements that are clearly subjective doesn't improve your case. That ok. You are entitled to your opinions.

But I'm still puzzled as to why you are embarrassed by the screen. THAT is an emotional attachment.

 

[AFEPPL]

I'm embracing nothing other than a debate from technology point of view. This is not an emotional topic and or about personal preferences towards a device.

The rMB is better than the MBA based on "measurable" technology. We have covered every technical aspect of the two devices, be it CPU performance, be it weight, portability, or be it anything else in-between. On a technology level it's beyond debate the rMB is measurably better in every category. Thats not subjective. We measured and contrasted them!

I'm not emotional about the screen, it's technically poor by todays standards. That's measurable, that's a fact not an emotional response and apple should be striding for more even if it's on entry device. Should the iPad 4 return because emotionally i like it? It doesn't matter that it's not better in any measurable technical way vs the 2017 iPad or the iPad Pro but i'll claim a better workflow to fit my needs or the design is more pleasing to me as a justification.

All that's posted back is "but connectivity" the same thing other people complained about when the MBA launched.
What i need a dongle for my MBA? it's laughable, its the same thing again! Yes in some cases you might need to carry a dongle, its not 200lbs or 6ft wide - be it a dongle for the MBA, the rMBA or the rMB. Damn you power brick, why do i need you!

 

[macgeek18]

I don't want a new Retina MBP or MB. I liked the 2015 13" MBP Retina's but now I won't buy a new MacBook or MacBook Pro ever again. The Air is the only Mac Laptop left for someone like me. Great battery life, and traditional ports.

 

[AFEPPL]

Yes, that's an extra box that you have to buy and carry around, which doesn't add any thunderbolt capability (even if its only V2), doesn't let you run a 4k@60Hz monitor and get USB 3 speeds at the same time and makes 4 USB connections and the SD card contend for a single USB 3 channel.



Then you don't have to use it. Buy a rMB. C.f. people who do want connectivity who can't use what isn't there... There seems to be a lot of this cognitive dissonance around here: "I don't need feature X - therefore nobody should need feature X and anybody who does need it is somehow ignoring the needs of others."

This discussion isn't over whether the rMB is useless, its about whether it is an adequate substitute for the MBA. Nobody is forcing you to buy an MBA - rather, you're arguing to force MBA users to buy a rMB.

You were arguing that the rMB was better in all respects. It isn't. The MBA has a better processor. The rMB has a better screen. The processors are much the same.




Yes. The MBAs screen is worse. Which is the main justification for the thing costing $300 less. It's called choice.

About 4 of my colleagues use MBAs - 80% of the time, they have them plugged into large external displays so the internal display is irrelevant (Aw, snap, the rMB needs a multiport adapter or hub to do that - esp. if you want to charge it at the same time).

MBA - Dual display and video mirroring: simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display and up to 3840x2160 resolution at 60Hz on an external display, both at millions of colours.. LED-backlit display at 1440x900

rMB - Dual display and video mirroring: simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display and up to 4096x2304 resolution at 60Hz on an external display, both at millions of colours. LED-backlit display with IPS technology 2304x1440 resolution at 226 PPI

You can charge and use an external monitor on the rMB. You can also plug TB3 devices into the rMB, you'll just get 5Gbs over USB3.1 as theres no PCI pipe or thunderbolt controller on the Kaby Lake M processors. Apple have clearly done this deliberately, as for why, no idea, i could speculate it's to separate pro and consumer devices as very few people actually use that feature.. but that's speculation. Remind me how the MBA will use TB3 - damn you dongles of death!!!!

Extrabox to carry? well i'll say the extra box you need to carry will be much less of a issue vs carrying a "large external displays" that means the "internal display is irrelevant". Remind me about the Dongle you need for VGA/DVI or ethernet on the MBA. Must be hard carrying those too. If it's on the desk 80% of the time, an "extra box" is not really going to be an issue!

The CPUs in the MBA are not better than those in the rMB, I've already posted the spec's, I'm not doing it again. Both the i5 and the i7 in the air are out performed by the Kaby Lake CPUs in the 2017 rMBs.

I've never posted you should or shouldn't use something or do workflow X, even if it's punchcards.
I've said MBA is legacy, the future is based around USBC and the rMB can do all the same workflows but yet you want to dismiss the rMB because it's forward looking.

Bring back the original iPhone for all the same reasons!
I can't imagine how people can possible ever use a iPad pro with no connections at all.

 

[BigMcGuire]

I can't imagine how people can possibly ever use a iPad pro with no connections at all.

Now this, I can agree with you on whole heartedly! I'm at a loss with this as well.

If I could afford a rMB I'd probably have one which is why my Air so dear to me.

 

[Moonjumper]

The MacBook should be able to replace the Air. But the price is too high, it lacks enough ports, and the keyboard is weaker.

The MB is a more mature product now, and retina screens are getting more common, so I think it likely the price will be dropping. This might be enough for Apple to drop the MBA if the MB gets below $1000.

The MBA originally came with too few ports. Hopefully the MB will get the fixes the Air did. Hopefully improvements will allow space for more ports. If this happens when the MB drops below $1000, I'm pretty certain the MBA would disappear.

Apple keyboards have got progressively worse, even for desktop, is the quest for thinness (I have a Late 2013 model 15" MBP that I use an external Apple Keyboard with that came from my Late 2006 iMac). Hopefully this will change, but keyboard quality does not seem to be a consideration in what models Apple keep around. If all 3 things happen, I don't mind the MBA disappearing.

 

[BigMcGuire]

Yeah my wife and I are already starting a savings account for our Macbooks next year (we both have Air 11 laptops now). As it is, I have to save a small fortune for both of us to upgrade to the next Macbook replacement.

 

[AFEPPL]

Agree on the price and the new rMBP TB is simply laughable..
in my myopic world, the rMB should start at 799.

 

[satchmo]

The MacBook has too few ports to be the mainstream Mac. The $999 Mac has been the most conventional computer for everybody in the lineup, but the MacBook just seems more niche. I don't see it as someone's gateway into the world of Macs.

The one port almost seems confrontational, like Apple is challenging you to find ways to do the what you've always just taken for granted in a laptop. I think there's enough space to put in 2 USB-C and an ad card slot. Dongle life is pretty alienating to the nontech savvy.

I agree. Perhaps the transition of the MacBook as Apple's mainstream notebook happens once that second USB-C port appears. By then, more peripherals will be available as well.
But the SD-card ship has sailed. If it's not on any MBP, it won't be on the MB.

 

[BayouTiger]

I'll just leave these here.. so you can work the rest out.

https://support.apple.com/en-au/HT206587

What if i don't need connectivity? Wireless NAS, boom, done. No crappy USB thumb drives, just a power cable. Now to say magsafe is "better" than USBC i would have agreed with you in that it will prevent damage to your device should you trip on the cable for example. But if you only intend using it on the desk, Meh maybe no big deal. I've never connected my rMBPs to anything but a single device at anyone time and i travel with mine every other week - so does it matter? Well that makes connectivity as a driver "subjective" based on your workflow. USBC is the future, that's not subjective, it offers better speeds, that's not subjective.. MBAs have more legacy connections, that's not subjective.




Yes, i used the base model on purpose... as you say, the 1% doesn't make a difference - but, if you want the i7 (7Y75) rMB that's coming out at 4100s/8000 where as the MBA i7 (5650U) is only 3550s/6800. I've never suggested usage for either machine. But the rMB has a faster CPUs, so it's not subjective to say the rMB is faster, the numbers show it's so in either guise.



I agree, just because you could live with the MBAs screen, doesn't mean you should.. see what i did there.
Plenty here have said they now prefer them, but that is subjective as we both agree. Its not subjective to say the retina screen is better than the MBAs screen. Do you prefer iOS or Android? Do you think it would take time to move between the two different platforms and be proficient to the same degree? And then it's a preference in most cases based on a workflow not a technical reason not to move from either to the other.

I agree with most of your points, though I must say that the dock shown is much better in theory than reality - I just returned one - I know the closely attached dock seems nice and clean, but it wont work if you use any kind of case on your Mac.

Beyond that, some folks just can't let go of the fact that the vast majority of users will never plug anything into their ports and if they do need to very occasionally plug in a thumb drive or such it is much safer with a dongle anyway.

My wife ditched her Air the moment she laid hands on her rMB. almost two years later nothing has touched the port except the power cord.

I carry a new rMBP and have no issues with my collection of dongles at all. Frankly I was carrying several even before for ethernet and video use as well as USB extensions since many devices (like flash programmers and uarts) really, really should be connected via an extension cable.

i just had a friend buy a new Air. It's just the form factor he liked best and it suits his needs perfectly.

 

[dingclancy23]

I'm not impacted in the slightest by the MBA, or the Mac Mini and Mac Pro (which is about to be replaced), but it's clear they are all outdated. That's not opinion, that's fact based on the tech employed within the device. I made no personal judgement on a persons wants or needs towards it. Everyone is free to buy/choose whatever they want as long as it's legal. I could find someone who would like a Newton or a C64 if i tried hard enough..

"Better in every way" is not subjective or hyperbole, the M3 rMB outperforms (or at the very worst is equal 3800s/6500m) to the base MBA (3400s/6500m based on GeekBench), it has a better screen, it's smaller and lighter. MBA is a better price point only. Where personal opinion comes in is things like a "better keyboard" or "better connectivity".. those are subjective. Technically the keyboard is "better", but subjectively people are not used to it, so dismiss it or ridicule it.

I dont own either a (working) MBA, or a rMB, so I'm being objective, not defensive towards a purchase i have made.
If you're on a budget the MBA makes sense. But apple should price the 1.2 rMB at a more reasonable price (sub 1k) to allow them to retire the old girl and retain units sold. The rMB is the MBA in all but name - people simply don't like change it would appear.

How much does the fanless system throttle the Macbook? I understand the new 12 inch MB and the base MBA are in the same performance range, but with the MBA and with the fan I believe it allows you to get to peak performance longer?

Also to note, the MBA is the only laptop right now advertised at 12 hours battery life. And that is a big big advantage. I believe the MBA right now is the only true whole day laptop.

 

[IHelpId10t5]

So, there was an underwhelming upgrade to the Macbook Air at this year's WWDC. I see no reason for Apple to keep on selling it. Why do they insist on milking customers for their money? ...

Because the Air is a great laptop with the ports that the majority of users want. I'm typing this on a 2013 Air that gets used 4-6 hours a day since the day it was purchased, still works exceptionally well, still runs the latest macOS, and still holds several hours of battery charge. Hell with dropping the Air. Instead drop the useless touchbar from the MBP and add some reasonable ports (mag-safe, USB, DP-mini, and a single USB-C would be exceptional) to the MB and MBP pro. Otherwise, I would rather buy the current MBA than either the MBP or MB.

 

[AFEPPL]

How much does the fanless system throttle the Macbook? I understand the new 12 inch MB and the base MBA are in the same performance range, but with the MBA and with the fan I believe it allows you to get to peak performance longer?

Also to note, the MBA is the only laptop right now advertised at 12 hours battery life. And that is a big big advantage. I believe the MBA right now is the only true whole day laptop.

Well, depends on which side of the line you are i guess. Similar to call parity if you have an air - based on the maths without taking sides, the numbers from the geekbench score shows the rMB is about 6-8% faster at the base model (m3 vs i5) or 15-16% on the higher model. (i7 vs i7).

I honestly don't know if it does or doesn't allow for prolonged peak performance or not or if thats a typical workflow or not for either model. I would assume the performance numbers already have some of that accounted for, but it would depend on many factors no doubt.

Whole day would depend on usage regardless of device. I've run a rMBP for more than a single day on one charge.
But yes, i think rMB is less. Those pesky pixels require juice to illuminate. One other benefit of the rMB is you can use the USB power blocks you use for the phone to charge the laptop too.

Because the Air is a great laptop with the ports that the majority of users want. I'm typing this on a 2013 Air that gets used 4-6 hours a day since the day it was purchased, still works exceptionally well, still runs the latest macOS, and still holds several hours of battery charge. Hell with dropping the Air. Instead drop the useless touchbar from the MBP and add some reasonable ports (mag-safe, USB, DP-mini, and a single USB-C would be exceptional) to the MB and MBP pro. Otherwise, I would rather buy the current MBA than either the MBP or MB.

I dont see that's true. The MBA is not the biggest selling Mac in the range so by default it would suggest that the vast majority of users DONT want the ports.

You already have an option of buying a new rMBP without the pointless TB (which i agree with and would be the one i'd buy).

 

[theluggage]

rMB - Dual display and video mirroring: simultaneously supports full native resolution on the built-in display and up to 4096x2304 resolution at 60Hz on an external display,

...but because there's only one USB-C port, and current implementations of USB-C need to assign all 4 high-speed lanes to DisplayPort in order to drive a 4k display at 60Hz, you can't do that and use a 5Gbps USB 3 device at the same time - a restriction that arises only because of the single port design: on the MBA the display and USB are independent.

You can also plug TB3 devices into the rMB, you'll just get 5Gbs over USB3.1 as theres no PCI pipe or thunderbolt controller on the Kaby Lake M processors.

No. You can't plug a thunderbolt 3 peripheral into a USB-C/3.1 port that isn't thunderbolt enabled. Well, you can but it won't work. Now, maybe you have a dual USB-3/Thunderbolt peripheral that has a USB-C/3.1 port as well (like this - or here's another but note the totally separate USB-C/3.1 and Thunderbolt 3 connections in both cases...) - that seems "common" on hard drives (not that there's much choice yet) but your TB3 dock or TB3 display or TB3-to-TB2 adapter just. won't. work.

Also note that both of those drives come with a USB-C to USB-A cable, and so will work happily on a MBA with the same 5Gbps USB 3 connection.

You can charge and use an external monitor on the rMB.

Only with a USB-C monitor (tiny choice at the moment c.f. DisplayPort) or a multiport adapter. Now, don't get me wrong, the ability to charge via a standard USB-C port using a hub, display or third-party adapter is cool. The problem with the rMB is that there's only one port, so unless you're a proud member of the "I don't need no stinkin' peripherals" club you need a hub/display/multiport.

well i'll say the extra box you need to carry will be much less of a issue vs carrying a "large external displays"

Sorry? Who said anything about carrying around a "large external display"? The point is that if you do most of your serious day-to-day work on an external display, then the MBA screen is perfectly adequate for checking your email, running a powerpoint etc. on the occasions that you do use it on the road. However, with the rMB, many people will need that multiport adapter with them, lest they want to read a USB stick or suchlike (oh, and with the one you linked to, will still need a separate VGA adapter - what the world still uses to connect to data projectors).

The CPUs in the MBA are not better than those in the rMB

Logic tip "X is not better than Y" does not mean "Y is better than X". As I've said, they're in the same ballpark, in a market where raw speed is not a big issue.

but yet you want to dismiss the rMB because it's forward looking.

It's not "forward looking" - it is "head in the clouds" from the "grudgingly admit that some people still need more than an iPad" brigade.

• All existing peripherals have what you want to dismiss as "legacy" connections.
• The vast majority of peripherals now being sold new still have "legacy" connections.
• Most of the new peripherals that do have USB-C are backward-compatible with USB-A and (if not sold by Apple) even come with a USB-A cable/adapter (plus, all those double-ended USB-C/USB-A sticks) and will work just as well that way.
• The few/more expensive peripherals that do take advantage of 10Gbps USB3.1 gen 2 or Thunderbolt aren't supported by the gimped USB-C/3.1gen1-only port on the rMB.
• The rMB's one trick is the one-cable data, display and charge docking thing - trouble is, by only giving it one port, Apple have made some sort of dock essential for many people, rather than an optional luxury. Oh, and that's still crippled by the limited bandwidth of the rMB's USB-C port.

Option A: get a computer with a single gimped USB-C and need hubs/adapters for everything
Option B: get a computer with 2xUSB-A + SD card + Thunderbolt/DisplayPort and - if and when you get a new USB-C device - use the adapter that came with the new device.

On the MBPs, with 2 or 4 ports supporting TB3, 10Gbps USB and the grunt to drive two 5k displays, then USB-A vs. USB-C is a debate. On the rMB, its a no-brainer.

Of course, if you really don't need non-wireless external devices in your workflow and/or are carrying your computer around all day, then the rMB is ideal. What it isn't is a replacement for the versatile, entry-level MacBook Air.

(If you remember the very first MacBook Air, it was very much in the same vein as the rMB. That changed)

No, the true Air replacement is the non-TB MacBook Pro - and that is far too expensive and still a couple of ports short of a picnic.

 

[AFEPPL]

We seem to be going in circles.

You can plug in multiple devices at once - the 5Gbs limit is the limit, speak to an apple store near you and have them walk you through it. You will be able to drive a 4k monitor and have a USB device plugged in. HDMI 2.0 to the monitor, USB for the thumb drive via an "extra box". No need for USB-C monitors.

Huge "box" herehttps://www.amazon.co.uk/Multiport-3-1Pass-through-Charging-Thunderbolt-ChromeBook/dp/B071SHKKGS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1501767032&sr=8-1&keywords=macbook+dongle+usb-c+usb+hdmi

You can plug in ANY TB3 device over a USB-C cable to a USB-C port in a rMB. Put simply TB3 "contains" TB2, HDMI 2.0, Display Port 1.2 and - this is the key part, "USB 3.1" (Gen 1 - 5Gbs). How will the MBA use TB3? Damn not by a hub or a dongle pls...

No, not just by/over USB-C, HDMI2.0 via that pesky add-on box again. Yes, the connection from the box to the single USB-C device is 3.1 (Gen 1) so is limited to a max of 5Gbs in total for all connections. See the link above again.

You said carrying the extra box was a problem, my retort is it's less effort than carrying a screen. But i 100% agree, you wouldn't want to carry a monitor/screen around with you. But the ironical part is that it also means you don't need to carry the mythical "box" either. The rMB is perfectly "adequate for checking your email, running a powerpoint etc. on the occasions that you do use it on the road" the media dongle works fine and is not bigger than the dongle you need for the MBA, so its just not a problem now is it.

CPU benchmarks, runs a series of tests on a processor and times how long the processor takes to complete the tasks. The quicker the CPU completes the tests, the higher the score. No additional logic required.

Let's not drag the iPad into it, thats another separate hole of 5*it and is off topic.
I can't be bothered to wade through the ramblings in the last part. See link to amazon above. But by your own admission 80% of the time it's not applicable in any shape or form. I'd wage if i could take a snapshot of your MBA right now you wont be using any of the ports you covet so deeply and it's just backward defensive thinking. Maybe a pic of your MBA with all these ports in use

I'm used to this, introducing new technology is always the hardest part of our job, esp for those that can't or wont look.

 

[Boyd01]

We seem to be going in circles.

I don't think it's "we", it's "you".

You don't like the MacBook Air and have made a good case for your reasons. So now just give it a rest. This is the MacBook Air forum and others have made equally good cases for their choice. Stop beating the dead horse, it's hard to believe that you can't find better uses for your time.

 

[AFEPPL]

I didn't notice the sub forum - i only read "new posts" so i apologise, I'm not looking for MBA or rMB posts/topics/sections so I'm more than happy to concede. But to be clear, it is not that i don't like or like something.

 

[dingclancy23]

Well, depends on which side of the line you are i guess. Similar to call parity if you have an air - based on the maths without taking sides, the numbers from the geekbench score shows the rMB is about 6-8% faster at the base model (m3 vs i5) or 15-16% on the higher model. (i7 vs i7).

I honestly don't know if it does or doesn't allow for prolonged peak performance or not or if thats a typical workflow or not for either model. I would assume the performance numbers already have some of that accounted for, but it would depend on many factors no doubt.

Whole day would depend on usage regardless of device. I've run a rMBP for more than a single day on one charge.
But yes, i think rMB is less. Those pesky pixels require juice to illuminate. One other benefit of the rMB is you can use the USB power blocks you use for the phone to charge the laptop too.

I think 12 hours is a big deal for those who are optimizing for battery life in their workflow/profession. I am sure there are segments of Mac users that need that last 2 hours of battery life, especially if you work on the go, going into conferences, meetings and you just want some more juice to make you not think about charging for the day.

And if you consider battery life as a "professional feature", given that there are more professionals who might place relatively more premium on battery life compared to the raw power needed for video editing etc., then they should continue to drive hard to get back to 12 hours.

If there are people who will pay $300+ more to get a BTO MacBook so that their code can compile a few seconds faster, then there are people who will pay $300+ so that they can get work done without looking at their power meter and having the hassle of looking for a plug.

Now it might not be as attractive in 2017 because of the older technologies that made the 12 hours possible (e.g. Poor screen), but what I really did not like in the new MB and MBP is how they took a step back in battery life, especially for Retina MacBooks.

We remember the 2017 MBA as slow, having a bad display, and having legacy ports, but we are forgetting that these were once state of the art advances - that still managed to get 12 hours of battery life.

So where is my MBP with 12 hours of battery life now Apple? This is clearly a step back.

 

[theluggage]

OK, so I'm just going to correct the false assertions (with citations) and then give up:

You can plug in ANY TB3 device over a USB-C cable to a USB-C port in a rMB.

False.

From the Lacie FAQ:
Are Thunderbolt 3 and USB 3.1 (USB-C) storage devices interchangeable?

• A Thunderbolt 3 computer port can support both Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C devices.
• A USB 3.1 (USB-C) computer port can only support USB devices

(Of course, some drives do have dual interfaces but, see previous post, they actually have separate USB and Thunderbolt sockets)

You will be able to drive a 4k monitor and have a USB device plugged in. HDMI 2.0 to the monitor, USB for the thumb drive via an "extra box".

Yes, you can plug in a USB device and a display at the same time. However, if the display is 4k@60Hz it will need all 4 high-speed lanes in the USB-C cable, so the USB device will be throttled down to USB 2 speed - 480Mbps - instead of USB 3's 5Gbps.

Early implementations of DisplayPort Alt Mode USB Type-C devices will likely use existing DisplayPort 1.2a capabilities that support up to 5.4 Gbps per lane. (Note: that includes the rMB - check the specs)

Using 5.4 Gbps across all four high-speed lanes will support up to 4K (4096 x 2160) display resolutions at a 60Hz frame rate with up to 30-bit color.
https://www.vesa.org/news/vesa-brings-displayport-to-new-usb-type-c-connector/

...unfortunately some of these restrictions aren't exactly getting shouted from the rooftops - e.g.

6) Host computer GPU must support 4K resolution. 4K@ 60Hz support disabled by Default. Special Firmware Required. USB speed may clock down to 2.0 when running at maximum video bandwidth.

Tiny footnote to the 4k display support on Caldigit's USB-C hub page http://www.caldigit.com/usb-3-1-usb-c-dock/

If you look up the Apple/LG USB-C 4k display you'll see in the small print that the USB-C ports on that are USB 2 only.

 

[Juggar]

How much does the fanless system throttle the Macbook? I understand the new 12 inch MB and the base MBA are in the same performance range, but with the MBA and with the fan I believe it allows you to get to peak performance longer?

Also to note, the MBA is the only laptop right now advertised at 12 hours battery life. And that is a big big advantage. I believe the MBA right now is the only true whole day laptop.

Thats why the Air CPU's are better, but "better" is subjective to the person using the laptop as it really depends on what you will use the laptop for. They are more or less equal for small task ( load up webpages, apps, etc..) but load up a render or some heavy prolonged workload and the Air will undoubtedly come out on top. The m series CPU will throttle but then again they were literally not designed for any heavy work loads. Just to be able to boost momentarily. I promise geekbench is not a solid benchmark for comparing CPUs beyond light usage because of how fast the benchmark completes. benchmark them for say 10 mins and the air would be howling and the retina severely throttling.

Granted neither are meant for heavy CPU loads but the macbook with retina is a level below the air with workloads that require CPU boost for prolonged periods of time. I would bet that heavy multitasking might also affect the retain macbook more than the air.

The macbook retina will be as fast as the Air in most scenarios and probably 90% of users wont notice or need prolonged boost from the CPU.

There are pros and cons for both laptops. Those that need the best battery life, legacy ports, a CPU much less prone to throttling may still choose the air. A typical college student might pick the macbook retina because its newer, higher base capacity (256 gb), smaller (than the 13 at least) and has a much, much better screen.

To each their own basically. Those that know they need an Air will buy one.

 

[AFEPPL]

OK, so I'm just going to correct the false assertions (with citations) and then give up:

There are no false assertions. I would recommend you book a session with apple to walk through the rMB with a product specialist. Maybe then you will have a different view as to the devices capabilities.

False.
(Of course, some drives do have dual interfaces but, see previous post, they actually have separate USB and Thunderbolt sockets)

It's not false, you clearly do not understand or know what TB3 is.
TB3 has the USB 3.1 protocol "embedded" into it, just like it also has TB2, HDMI, PCIE and DP too. (G1 only on the rMB).
So ANY TB3 device/enclosure will allow you to connect DIRECTLY from its TB3 port (looks the same as the USB-C port) using the same cable into the USB-C port on the side of the rMB. The TB3 device will then proceed to "run over the USB protocol" at a max speed of 5Gbs. Equally you could connect any TB3 device over the TB2 or PCIE protocol too if you so desired. I have enclosed a video on TB3

Yes, you can plug in a USB device and a display at the same time. However, if the display is 4k@60Hz it will need all 4 high-speed lanes in the USB-C cable, so the USB device will be throttled down to USB 2 speed - 480Mbps - instead of USB 3's 5Gbps.

Again, speak to apple, but i'll repeat it once again. You are the only one aiming for USB-C monitors (which you can't use on a MBA natively). Ignore USB-C, lets park SST and MST monitors.
<inserting text from apple here> "The MacBook (2015 and later), MacBook Pro (2016 and later), and iMac (2017 and later) 4k 60Hz refresh rate over HDMI when used with a supported HDMI 2.0 display, HDMI Premium Certified cable, and a compatible third-party USB-C to HDMI 2.0 adapter". For completeness, HDMI 1.4b will only support 4k at 30hz

So from a Monitor via the not so special cable from above (as described by apple) to the "extra box of choice" which is then connected to rMB via USB-C. You can then connect the USB device of old into afore mentioned box too at the same time, all with no issues.

I think we are done.

 

[theluggage]

I have enclosed a video on TB3

...which does not, at any point, say that TB3 devices will work on USB-only USB-C ports.

C.f. Lacie (link in my previous post) who actually make TB3 devices and stated clearly and unambiguously that they won't.
Here's another one for the collection:

https://www.cnet.com/uk/how-to/usb-type-c-thunderbolt-3-one-cable-to-connect-them-all/

• Since Thunderbolt 3 devices use discrete Thunderbolt chips to function, they will not function if plugged into a USB-C port.

What your video does say is "Thunderbolt contains USB but, unfortunately, USB doesn't contain Thunderbolt".

What seems to be confusing you is this "USB is embedded in Thunderbolt" idea. What it means is that Intel's Alpine Ridge TB3 controller includes a USB3.1 gen 2 host controller. That means that any computer with TB3 can act as a USB3.1 host when a USB 3.1 device is plugged in. Also, that means that a TB3 device can act as a USB 3.1 host (i.e. it can have USB devices plugged in). That doesn't mean that a TB3 device can connect to a USB3.1 host and most certainly not your assertion that ANY Thunderbolt 3 device will work when connected to a USB-only host.

Doesn't mean that you can't build a device with dual interfaces - but that means adding a USB-to-whatever-the-device-does controller as well/instead of the PCIe-to-whatever that most TB3 devices will contain (and using PCIe controllers is one of the technical advantages of TB over USB). That isn't something that comes for "free" with TB3 - the manufacturer has to add it although that seems to be commonplace with single/mobile hard drives. Lacie and G-Tech are doing it by adding a totally separate USB-C port on the drive. The Caldigit tuff seems to have cracked using a single port.

For other types of product, trying to run then off a USB link just doesn't make sense (e.g. the architecture of a TB3 dock is completely different to a superficially similar USB-C dock)

Here's a couple of articles that are a bit more substantial than YouTube:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10248/thunderbolt-3-in-action-akitio-thunder3-duo-pro-das-review/2
https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/HBD16235_Thunderbolt_TB_r05.pdf

...unfortunately, they tend not to mention the possibility of plugging a TB3 device into a USB host (although I'm sure they'd sing it from the rooftops if it worked).

 

[deepen03]

Here's the reason they keep selling it...
Those of us who continue to see the Macbook Air as superior to the retina Macbook for our needs don't feel "milked". Price is only ONE factor... but not the ONLY one. Sure, buying a 13" MBA for $750 is pretty good start. But the MBA also has a better processor, more ports, and SD card slot. Obviously if those things aren't important to you then you wouldn't see value in them.

I'm curious as to why you care if Apple continues to sell the Macbook Air?

The MacBook Air (1.8ghz) is $999. It's running a 2 year old 5th gen processor. How does it have a better processor than the MacBook? The 7th Core M3 chip is more advanced than the older 5th gen i5 chip.

I care because this is the same situation as the 2010 designed, CD/DVD MacBook Pro that was still being sold in 2016. Why continue to sell old hardware to please a very small percent of customers? If you forced everyone to just go with MacBook or MacBook Pro, they would get used to it.
[doublepost=1501820299][/doublepost]

Should that be "Time" rather than "Tim"? Perhaps the title ought to be, "Tim, it's time to kill the Air..."

I just noticed that! OOPS!
[doublepost=1501820590][/doublepost]

Why? Price point, and eco-system stickiness.

Price Point
Under $1k is often the difference between a casual admiration for tech you'll never have and making the decision to fork over your hard-earned capital for a quality machine. What good are admirers of your products who ultimately don't buy anything? If there was no MacBook Air, some people would not even seriously consider a Mac, even if they are more than a little curious or have used a Mac before.

Ecosystem Stickiness
There is a stickiness to tech ecosystems, as well. Once you get there, you're more likely to stay. Not true for all, but true for most. Even if someone starts with a MacBook Air, that doesn't mean they will stay with that, but it does make it a little more likely they will stay with a Mac.

For Apple, the MacBook Air is still the "introductory" model. For those who covet the MacBook form factor, though, I could definitely understand wanting the MacBook Air to go away so the MacBook gets a price drop.

I'm not saying that's what the OP wants, but from my own journey into a Mac, it certainly was part of my thought process.

I am saying that the "MacBook" could be their introductory model. They already argue that the iPad Pro is a full computer. The Air has no place in their 2017 lineup. Who uses multiple built-in ports anyway? Multiport 3rd party Type-C adapters are so cheap on Amazon!

The design of the MacBook has been out for 2 years now. You're telling me they can't drop it to $999? Apple can change what customers know to be their entry level Mac.
[doublepost=1501820725][/doublepost]

I agree, the MacBook Air should have been killed off in 2015 when the new MacBook arrived. It's an embarrassment to the Apple line up - it looks incredibly dated with its silver bezels - pure nasty in fact. Never a fan from the start sadly. The screen is a disgrace and the old ports simply do not follow Apple's 2015 onwards direction. And that, adds confusion to a first time Apple buyer who may buy this old man with a very dated non retina screen.
Apple really need direction on this. It's old, very dated, expensive and a poor representative for Apple in 2017.
Just plain nasty!

My point of this thread exactly! THANK YOU!
[doublepost=1501820935][/doublepost]

The MacBook has too few ports to be the mainstream Mac. The $999 Mac has been the most conventional computer for everybody in the lineup, but the MacBook just seems more niche. I don't see it as someone's gateway into the world of Macs.

The one port almost seems confrontational, like Apple is challenging you to find ways to do the what you've always just taken for granted in a laptop. I think there's enough space to put in 2 USB-C and an ad card slot. Dongle life is pretty alienating to the nontech savvy.

Maybe that's what Apple wants though, to switch the Mac from the everybody computer into more specialized areas and extend Steve Jobs truck analogy even further.

If Apple is still the kind of company that can keep the non retina pro around for years, I see the MBA staying around for a long while. Do they still need a basic computer to sell to teachers?

See the ASUS Zenbook 3 or Q325. Thin as the rMB, and have multiple Type-C ports.
[doublepost=1501821400][/doublepost]

...but because there's only one USB-C port, and current implementations of USB-C need to assign all 4 high-speed lanes to DisplayPort in order to drive a 4k display at 60Hz, you can't do that and use a 5Gbps USB 3 device at the same time - a restriction that arises only because of the single port design: on the MBA the display and USB are independent.



No. You can't plug a thunderbolt 3 peripheral into a USB-C/3.1 port that isn't thunderbolt enabled. Well, you can but it won't work. Now, maybe you have a dual USB-3/Thunderbolt peripheral that has a USB-C/3.1 port as well (like this - or here's another but note the totally separate USB-C/3.1 and Thunderbolt 3 connections in both cases...) - that seems "common" on hard drives (not that there's much choice yet) but your TB3 dock or TB3 display or TB3-to-TB2 adapter just. won't. work.

Also note that both of those drives come with a USB-C to USB-A cable, and so will work happily on a MBA with the same 5Gbps USB 3 connection.



Only with a USB-C monitor (tiny choice at the moment c.f. DisplayPort) or a multiport adapter. Now, don't get me wrong, the ability to charge via a standard USB-C port using a hub, display or third-party adapter is cool. The problem with the rMB is that there's only one port, so unless you're a proud member of the "I don't need no stinkin' peripherals" club you need a hub/display/multiport.



Sorry? Who said anything about carrying around a "large external display"? The point is that if you do most of your serious day-to-day work on an external display, then the MBA screen is perfectly adequate for checking your email, running a powerpoint etc. on the occasions that you do use it on the road. However, with the rMB, many people will need that multiport adapter with them, lest they want to read a USB stick or suchlike (oh, and with the one you linked to, will still need a separate VGA adapter - what the world still uses to connect to data projectors).



Logic tip "X is not better than Y" does not mean "Y is better than X". As I've said, they're in the same ballpark, in a market where raw speed is not a big issue.



It's not "forward looking" - it is "head in the clouds" from the "grudgingly admit that some people still need more than an iPad" brigade.

• All existing peripherals have what you want to dismiss as "legacy" connections.
• The vast majority of peripherals now being sold new still have "legacy" connections.
• Most of the new peripherals that do have USB-C are backward-compatible with USB-A and (if not sold by Apple) even come with a USB-A cable/adapter (plus, all those double-ended USB-C/USB-A sticks) and will work just as well that way.
• The few/more expensive peripherals that do take advantage of 10Gbps USB3.1 gen 2 or Thunderbolt aren't supported by the gimped USB-C/3.1gen1-only port on the rMB.
• The rMB's one trick is the one-cable data, display and charge docking thing - trouble is, by only giving it one port, Apple have made some sort of dock essential for many people, rather than an optional luxury. Oh, and that's still crippled by the limited bandwidth of the rMB's USB-C port.

Option A: get a computer with a single gimped USB-C and need hubs/adapters for everything
Option B: get a computer with 2xUSB-A + SD card + Thunderbolt/DisplayPort and - if and when you get a new USB-C device - use the adapter that came with the new device.

On the MBPs, with 2 or 4 ports supporting TB3, 10Gbps USB and the grunt to drive two 5k displays, then USB-A vs. USB-C is a debate. On the rMB, its a no-brainer.

Of course, if you really don't need non-wireless external devices in your workflow and/or are carrying your computer around all day, then the rMB is ideal. What it isn't is a replacement for the versatile, entry-level MacBook Air.

(If you remember the very first MacBook Air, it was very much in the same vein as the rMB. That changed)

No, the true Air replacement is the non-TB MacBook Pro - and that is far too expensive and still a couple of ports short of a picnic.

Far too expensive? The 128GB MB Pro starts at $1299, with sales at Best Buy and B&H that put it at $1199 many times. The 1.8ghz Air is $999.
[doublepost=1501821689][/doublepost]

To me, this is the main issue with the Air. A screen that belongs on Mac OS X Snow Leopard / Lion-era Macs. Almost as bad as still selling 5400 RPM HDDs in 2017.

Also, it's ironic how so many people praise Apple for forcing adoption of USB-C, while the MacBook Air, Mac mini, and Mac Pro continue to exist without it. Someone is going to make a USB-C accessory that doesn't work with all the current Macs sold by Apple, let alone ones that are a generation or two old?

It would be nice to see Apple add another USB-C port to the MacBook and drop the price to where the 13" Air is at now. A Retina display doesn't have to cost a $300 premium in 2017. MacBook needs to be Apple's entry-level for consumers, unless Apple plans to redesign the Air with Retina display and keep a decent port array (unlikely).

Exactly my main points! No company should be selling a screen less than 1080p in 2017 for premium laptops. A $600 Windows laptop has it.

They won't upgrade the Air design, it will just slowly be phased out just like the CD/DVD MBP was.

And yes, I agree, parts costs have gone down a lot, so Apple can easily start the rMB at $999 and be profitable. Customers will still buy it because "It's a Mac." End of the day, that's all that matters. If they want more ports, they can buy a dongle.

 

[AFEPPL]

...which does not, at any point, say that TB3 devices will work on USB-only USB-C ports.

C.f. Lacie (link in my previous post) who actually make TB3 devices and stated clearly and unambiguously that they won't.
Here's another one for the collection:



What your video does say is "Thunderbolt contains USB but, unfortunately, USB doesn't contain Thunderbolt".

What seems to be confusing you is this "USB is embedded in Thunderbolt" idea. What it means is that Intel's Alpine Ridge TB3 controller includes a USB3.1 gen 2 host controller. That means that any computer with TB3 can act as a USB3.1 host when a USB 3.1 device is plugged in. Also, that means that a TB3 device can act as a USB 3.1 host (i.e. it can have USB devices plugged in). That doesn't mean that a TB3 device can connect to a USB3.1 host and most certainly not your assertion that ANY Thunderbolt 3 device will work when connected to a USB-only host.

Doesn't mean that you can't build a device with dual interfaces - but that means adding a USB-to-whatever-the-device-does controller as well/instead of the PCIe-to-whatever that most TB3 devices will contain (and using PCIe controllers is one of the technical advantages of TB over USB). That isn't something that comes for "free" with TB3 - the manufacturer has to add it although that seems to be commonplace with single/mobile hard drives. Lacie and G-Tech are doing it by adding a totally separate USB-C port on the drive. The Caldigit tuff seems to have cracked using a single port.

For other types of product, trying to run then off a USB link just doesn't make sense (e.g. the architecture of a TB3 dock is completely different to a superficially similar USB-C dock)

Here's a couple of articles that are a bit more substantial than YouTube:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/10248/thunderbolt-3-in-action-akitio-thunder3-duo-pro-das-review/2
https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/HBD16235_Thunderbolt_TB_r05.pdf

...unfortunately, they tend not to mention the possibility of plugging a TB3 device into a USB host (although I'm sure they'd sing it from the rooftops if it worked).

I guess you are being deliberately awkward.
Even the articles you linked say the same thing.

Read back, I said TB3 can be used with USB-C (this is a connector, not a protocol) you then went on a multitude of false hoods about world hunger and penis sizes for pigmies (or something equally unrelated and irrelevant). TB3 "contains" the USB protocol (amongst others). Any rMB (or other device for that matter) with a USB-C connection can be plugged "directly" into ANY "TB3 device". You don't need any other ports, no magic cream, no secret masonic handshake. It just plugs-in and (this is the key word) TB3 will then automatically works over the most appropriate "protocol" based on what both devices support. So in the case of rMB the protocol that would be used by the USB-C connector will be USB3.1 G1, just like I've been saying since the start.

Where does it say in the video? It's what the video is all about. But heres a picture.

These are "some" of the protocols that make up TB3 - look at the end one. USB 3.1 it's part of TB3...!

From the article you linked.


One of the points of TB3 was to bring all the protocols together. The point of USB-C connector is that its universal connector for all things, not just a single purpose. USB-C does not contain anything, it's a connector type in the same way A and B are. TB3 uses the USB-C connector standard, TB3 contains the ability to use multiple protocols to talk to ANY device (omnidirectional) via the multiple protocols - including "USB 3.1". which in the case of the rMB is G1. There are no TB3 controllers in rMB, its USB 3.1 G1. There are no TB2 controllers in the rMB its USB 3.1 G1, there are no DP 1.2 controllers in the rMB.... i could go on.

I'll end this by quoting thunderbolt themselves. (while pointing out the rMB is G1 so we are crystal)
Thunderbolt 3 is a superset solution which includes USB 3.1 (10Gbps), and adds 40Gbps Thunderbolt and DisplayPort 1.2 from a single USB-C port. This enables any dock, display, or data device to connect to a Thunderbolt 3 port, fulfilling the promise of the USB-C connector. Now with a Thunderbolt 3 port, you can connect to any dock, device or display, including billions of USB devices.

Hopefully we've finally put this to bed now.