I'm fine with USB-A getting killed as long as Lightning gets killed at the same time, for the same reason as the post before mine.
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Time to kill the Air and drop the 12" Macbook to $999.
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I'm fine with USB-A getting killed as long as Lightning gets killed at the same time, for the same reason as the post before mine.
He doesn't care - it was merely the conceit he chose to draw your attention. Much as I'm doing with this comment...
Oh I doubt that, because you guys will never let it rest if you don't get the last word.
Perhaps you should read back:
Which is false (and I've already linked to several sources that confirm that in black and white). I mean, you even capitalised "ANY", so you don't have a leg to stand on, because the LG/Apple 5k Thunderbolt Display definitely won't work*, the Caldigit TS3 won't work (go read the specs) and PCIe enclosures/eGPUs can't work (since they rely on the PCIe component of Thunderbolt).
So lets just take this slowly: A computer with a TB3 port can drive USB 3.1 devices (which is what all those pretty pictures and marketing blurbs you're pointing at mean - and something I've never denied) but a computer with a USB-C "only" port (like the rMB) can't drive TB3 devices (which is what you've been claiming - see the quote above) - unless they're specifically designed as dual-interface.
So, since you seem to be trying to retrospectively change your own arguments, are believing what you read into ambiguous marketing infographics over clear statements from device manufacturers that "this won't work", and have now trotted out the Chewbacca defence of "but USB-C is just a connector" (waving away the rats nest of interwoven protocols for power delivery, reversibility, cables with different connections, power capacities and data rates, cable ID chips, switching between various alternative modes etc. that USB-C represents in the real world - because those are the nasty complications that arise if you want a universal connector that goes beyond "the plug fits in the hole") then, yes, I think we are done and I leave you to your world of "USB-C alternative facts mode".
* https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT207448. Oh, look, but with a $50 adapter, the MacBook Air can! OK, only at 4K, so you wouldn't buy one specifically for the Air, but it could be a useful fallback if you have more than one Mac.
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Well, yes, that's 30% more and way over the psychological $1000 mark - far too expensive to replace a sub-$1000 entry-level machine (even if you get what you pay for).
1080p is a 16:9 "wide screen" resolution and one of the nice features of MacBooks over PCs is their 16:10 screen ratio. I think the correct resolution for an improved, but non-retina, MBA would be 1680x1050 (the default scaled "looks like" resolution of new MBPs.) Anything more, and you're looking at tiny system text and icons.
Windows 7/8/10 GUIs are pretty much designed for 1080p and, on top of that, Windows has a "sort of" advantage because it has a "sort of" fully-scalable UI which "sort of" works until you find an application that doesn't implement it properly. Apple's approach of HiDPI and "scaled mode" works better with "retina" class displays - but leaves them a bit stuck when it comes to offering a non-retina entry level machine to compete with 1080p PCs.
A "retina MacBook Air" would be great if Apple could pull it off for $999 for the base model. If they could get the non-TB MBP down to that (maybe with a 1.8 processor) then it might be a credible MBA replacement (...there's the ports issue, but even the MBPescape is head and shoulders above the rMB in that respect).
Nothing has changed... it's not false, it's you that's not taking it slow enough it would appear.
Walk into an apple shop and ask them to show you.. seeing is believing or maybe a video?
<satire section>
Damn, how crap is the MBA. You need one of those pesky dongles - how ironical a response could you put!!
Whats the speed and whats the protocol? So it's not TB3? its just TB2 hows that work..? Irony number 2.
The MBA must be really poor not to be able to run an external screen at the full 5k resolution. Is it a big heavy one still or could you carry it around with you? Just curious.
<on topic>
"ANY TB3 device/enclosure will allow you to connect DIRECTLY from its TB3 port (looks the same as the USB-C port) using the same cable into the USB-C port on the side of the rMB" is 1000% true and correct, i have changed nothing at all... same quote, same words, same everything from both of us, with one exception. You have gone back on your workflow now from a LaCie drive to a 5k monitor, not even the 4k monitor that you harped on about earlier which i was clear 4k was over HDMI 2.0 was a solution previously...! I also very clearly said ignore USB-C monitors. "There are no rats nests" here, TB3 is a collection of other protocols "too". Key word! You don't seem to grasp the protocols part that make up TB3.
I really hope you don't work in a technical position, but... Here comes the good bit as i just want to put this to bed.. If you wanted to run the LG 27UD88 4k for whatever reason (regardless that we were ignoring USB-C monitors) you would connect with "DisplayPort Alt-Mode over USB-C" <BOOM> let me know if you need a link to the "pretty pictures and marketing blurbs" from apple tech. Hell i'll copy and paste it below just for giggles.. Strange Apple seem to have omitted the MBA from the list - maybe due to its pending obsolescence? I'll underline the rMB line too for easy of reference. Oh btw the LG monitor you linked, would actually POWER/Charge the rMB and also provide it with USB access to ANY device plugged into the rear of the monitor too (through those 4 PCI lanes you mentioned). Wow i hear you say, so my monitor is my "box" too. Yep...no dongle needed unlike the MBA!
LG UltraFine Displays
The LG UltraFine 4K Display is supported on these Mac computers with DisplayPort Alt-Mode (its one of those rats things again) over USB-C:
In-fact thanks but I'm going to take the advice of Boyd01, I'm done with any subsequent retorts you make on this topic.. I've clearly demonstrated the rMB via its "single" USB-C is not a silly as "some" make it out to be. Its an excellent device with great options but i fully agree 1 port is 1 too few.
Walk into an apple shop and ask them to show you.. seeing is believing or maybe a video?
<satire section>
Damn, how crap is the MBA. You need one of those pesky dongles - how ironical a response could you put!!
Whats the speed and whats the protocol? So it's not TB3? its just TB2 hows that work..? Irony number 2.
The MBA must be really poor not to be able to run an external screen at the full 5k resolution. Is it a big heavy one still or could you carry it around with you? Just curious.
<on topic>
"ANY TB3 device/enclosure will allow you to connect DIRECTLY from its TB3 port (looks the same as the USB-C port) using the same cable into the USB-C port on the side of the rMB" is 1000% true and correct, i have changed nothing at all... same quote, same words, same everything from both of us, with one exception. You have gone back on your workflow now from a LaCie drive to a 5k monitor, not even the 4k monitor that you harped on about earlier which i was clear 4k was over HDMI 2.0 was a solution previously...! I also very clearly said ignore USB-C monitors. "There are no rats nests" here, TB3 is a collection of other protocols "too". Key word! You don't seem to grasp the protocols part that make up TB3.
I really hope you don't work in a technical position, but... Here comes the good bit as i just want to put this to bed.. If you wanted to run the LG 27UD88 4k for whatever reason (regardless that we were ignoring USB-C monitors) you would connect with "DisplayPort Alt-Mode over USB-C" <BOOM> let me know if you need a link to the "pretty pictures and marketing blurbs" from apple tech. Hell i'll copy and paste it below just for giggles.. Strange Apple seem to have omitted the MBA from the list - maybe due to its pending obsolescence? I'll underline the rMB line too for easy of reference. Oh btw the LG monitor you linked, would actually POWER/Charge the rMB and also provide it with USB access to ANY device plugged into the rear of the monitor too (through those 4 PCI lanes you mentioned). Wow i hear you say, so my monitor is my "box" too. Yep...no dongle needed unlike the MBA!
LG UltraFine Displays
The LG UltraFine 4K Display is supported on these Mac computers with DisplayPort Alt-Mode (its one of those rats things again) over USB-C:
- MacBook Pro (2016 and later)
- MacBook (2015 and later)
- iMac (21.5-inch, 2017)
- iMac (Retina 4K, 21.5-inch, 2017)
- iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017)
In-fact thanks but I'm going to take the advice of Boyd01, I'm done with any subsequent retorts you make on this topic.. I've clearly demonstrated the rMB via its "single" USB-C is not a silly as "some" make it out to be. Its an excellent device with great options but i fully agree 1 port is 1 too few.
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Take my Air from my cold dead hands!!! Not perfect, but a great laptop for mr needs!
There are people who are made to feel insecure when they are given an opportunity to make a choice. They'd rather have only one option... this way they don't have the anxiety of having to make a decision. Obviously it's not all Apple customers, but Apple seems to attract those people.
Just look at the various threads here on MR where people agonize over which sized iPhone or iPad to buy, which storage capacity, etc. It is often more than just a simple back-n-forth consideration but a near-paralyzing decision.
So in part, this call to discontinue the Macbook Air is fueled by that sentiment. The thinking goes, "if Apple continues to sell the Macbook Air AND the retina Macbook AND the Macbook Pro then I will have to decide which one to buy and I might end up choosing the one with the EMBARRASSING screen. If I do that, I'll be ridiculed at Starbucks! But if Apple reduces the options to only those that will not result in me being a social outcast, that would be better."
Schools are buying MBA's in bulk. A couple local schools recently replaced all the teachers 2010 white MacBook's with MBA's. They still are selling well.
This is not the first thread on this topic, and thank you @sracer, and @Boyd01 - among others - for your input.
I get that some of those who post do not like the MBA.
What I don't get is this desire to bludgeon those of us - who do like the MBA, and who hugely like what it offers - into silent insensibility.
For me, the MBA is the best computer that Apple has ever designed, it is that perfect fusion of power, speed, style and portability; I'm writing this on a CTO 11" MBA (8 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD, Core i7) which has travelled the world with me - including to some of the strangest and most dysfunctional places on the planet.
It is portable, fast, reliable (did I say reliable? Really reliable?), powerful, and gives me amazing battery life. I can easily get 8 hours a day out of a single charge.
I use USB sticks, - all the time - and have a superdrive (yes, I buy CDs, and I play CDs through the computer), and - when I am home - my computer is also linked to a printer. (No, not wireless, plugs, cords, cables, that sort of thing). Thus, I use ports, and I want ports.
Now: Screen: Yes, a retina screen would be nice. But, it is not my main priority, and will not supersede any of the other priorities.
As it is at present, the rMB reminds me of nothing so much as the original few iterations of the MBA; a design with great potential which has yet to be fully realised.
This means that even now, I will snap up another (preferably maxed out) 11" before I would consider purchasing a rMB.
I get that some of those who post do not like the MBA.
What I don't get is this desire to bludgeon those of us - who do like the MBA, and who hugely like what it offers - into silent insensibility.
For me, the MBA is the best computer that Apple has ever designed, it is that perfect fusion of power, speed, style and portability; I'm writing this on a CTO 11" MBA (8 GB RAM, 512 GB SSD, Core i7) which has travelled the world with me - including to some of the strangest and most dysfunctional places on the planet.
It is portable, fast, reliable (did I say reliable? Really reliable?), powerful, and gives me amazing battery life. I can easily get 8 hours a day out of a single charge.
I use USB sticks, - all the time - and have a superdrive (yes, I buy CDs, and I play CDs through the computer), and - when I am home - my computer is also linked to a printer. (No, not wireless, plugs, cords, cables, that sort of thing). Thus, I use ports, and I want ports.
Now: Screen: Yes, a retina screen would be nice. But, it is not my main priority, and will not supersede any of the other priorities.
As it is at present, the rMB reminds me of nothing so much as the original few iterations of the MBA; a design with great potential which has yet to be fully realised.
This means that even now, I will snap up another (preferably maxed out) 11" before I would consider purchasing a rMB.
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Why bother when Apple's own specs on the 5k TB3 display clearly say it needs a Thunderbolt 3-enabled computer? Or the Elgato TB3 dock ("Requirements: Thunderbolt 3 port"). Or the Sonnet Echo Express, or their Fusion Flash Drive ("Compatibility: Mac with Thunderbolt 3 ports").
Which one of those doesn't meet your definition of "ANY TB3 device/enclosure"? Clue: they all do.
Which one "will allow you to connect DIRECTLY from its TB3 port using the same cable into the USB-C port on the side of the rMB" (which isn't a Thunderbolt 3 port)? Clue: none, unless the manufacturers are mistaken.
A computer with a USB-C/TB3 port can drive USB peripherals. A computer with a USB-C/3.1 can't drive TB3 peripherals (unless they have a separate a USB interface - which is only really feasible/worthwhile for mobile, single HDs that can't go much faster than USB3 anyway).
I can appreciate your confusion - manufacturers of USB-C devices are spamming "Thunderbolt 3 compatible" over everything (and are being very sloppy with what "USB-C" means) so you have to read carefully - I thought I'd found one TB3 device that met your claim of working with a USB-C/3.1 port via the same connection - the Caldigit Tuff - but on closer reading it's just a USB-C (3.1) drive - Thunderbolt is irrelevant to its operation. All the other mobile drives from Lacie, G-Tech etc. with dual interfaces have physically separate TB3 and non-TB "USB-C" ports (again, the lack of a simple name for a USB-C port that isn't Thunderbolt helps confuse things).
Yes. Because that display is a "DisplayPort Alt-Mode over USB-C" display. The rMB explicitly supports "DisplayPort Alt-Mode over USB-C" (which physically allocates 1 or more of the 4 high-speed data lines in the USB-C cable to DisplayPort which are then passed almost directly to the display panel).
The 5k version, however, is a Thunderbolt 3 display. It does not use "DisplayPort Alt-Mode over USB-C" because that doesn't support 5k (at least as long as Macs only have DisplayPort 1.2), instead, the TB3 controller in the computer encodes two DisplayPort 1.2 streams alongside PCIe data to form a Thunderbolt signal, which is then decoded by a second TB3 controller in the display. Why are we talking about the 5k? Because you claimed that ANY TB3 device would connect to a rMB. Now, its probably not beyond the wit of man to build a TB3 display that would fall back to DP Alt Mode if a rMB was connected - but this one doesn't do that. (And, as I said, although you wouldn't buy one of these displays specifically for either an Air or a rMB, plenty of people have more than one Mac in the household, and the fact that the Air can connect to it - or most other TB1,2 or 3 devices - is one of those nice bits of versatility that the rMB has thrown under the bus).
Since we're talking about the 4k Ultrafine display and you've helpfully provided a link, can I draw your attention to the reference further down the page to: "three downstream USB-C (480 Mbps) ports" (i.e. USB 2 speeds only)? As I was saying earlier, you'll find this restriction on all 4k USB-C displays or hubs/docks with 4k support because DP Alt Mode needs all 4 high-speed lanes on a USB-C connection to support 4k at decent refresh rates. They can only offer slow, so-10-years-ago USB 2 on their downstream ports. That means that, on a rMB with only one port, the price of that neat single-cable docking solution is the total loss of 5Gbps USB3.1 capability unless you unplug the display. A multiport adapter won't help - a non-Thunderbolt USB-C port only has 4 high-speed lanes and (unlike Thunderbolt) if they're being used for DisplayPort they can't be used for USB 3.
An Air, with its separate USB3.1 ports, has no such restriction (just the horror of having to plug in two cables). and while it might not drive that particular display (although an adapter is feasible) there are plenty of other 4k DisplayPort displays (even a couple with DisplayPort and USB-C connectors if you want future proof-ness).
Wouldn't pay 999 for the MacBook in its current configuration
The Air will be discontinued, yes
This is why I got one recently
The Air will be discontinued, yes
This is why I got one recently
I bought a 13.3 MBA 2015 on sale. i5, 8 gigs of ram 128, I've got a one USB port hooked up to a four port usb3 hub ( non-powered) a display port to hdmi active adaptor, running my MBA to my 43" vizio TV. I installed switch res x and it runs 4K at 60hz beautifully. And yes it has WD portable hard drives hooked up. Along with a apple wireless mouse and keyboard. Yup the fan runs on it, Southern cal can get hot during the summer. I also have a surface pro 4 and believe me, the m3 (fanless) in that gets way hotter to the touch than my MBA. Also the surface only has one USB port.
I have two Airs. Take one on the road everyday. Use the card reader everyday. I charge it overnight and don't even bother taking the charger with me. Battery lasts all day and then some. Even runs Final Cut Pro with an i5 and just 4mb of ram. Never had any issues. My wife even spilled a smoothie on hers. Keys are a bit sticky but it keeps on going.
Great computer for our use. Speak for yourself.
Now if spending $3000 to look good sitting in Starbucks is your thing go for it.
Great computer for our use. Speak for yourself.
Now if spending $3000 to look good sitting in Starbucks is your thing go for it.
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Perfect. Thank you!
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Exactly. I bought two, in 2010 and 2015. Best computer I've ever used (rMB included), and I started in 1981. They don't kill it because it sells well. And it sells well because people like it. And people like it because it's GREAT.
You're welcome to 'your' opinion, the market and consumers as well as the reviewers all see it another way.
MBA is obsolete with a poor screen and lower performance than it's little brother - that's facts not opinion.
Don't know about the reviewers, but "the market" still likes the MacBook Air. That is why Apple decided to update it instead of discontinue it - because it still sells so well.
I'm still very happy with my maxxed out 2013 MBA and have no plans to replace it. Would I buy one today? Not likely, it will be time to move on to something else next time. But as this thread shows, lots of people are happy with the MBA. Many people were surprised that Apple updated it, but that fact speaks for itself.
I think a $1000 MacBook would be a nice product and I'm all for that. Don't think it would really meet my needs, but I'm not in the market now. As long as there's demand for the MBA I can't see anything wrong with Apple continuing it.
I think a $1000 MacBook would be a nice product and I'm all for that. Don't think it would really meet my needs, but I'm not in the market now. As long as there's demand for the MBA I can't see anything wrong with Apple continuing it.
Thats speculation in terms of the breakdown, you nor i know if apple are turning over airs faster than anything.
They have said on previous occasions airs are declining.
What was said at the by Apple was sales were up 1% and revenue was up by 7% - you don't get that growth in revenue selling the bottom model on 1% increase in sales. Cook also called out "Mac revenue grew 7 percent year over year, driven by the strength of the MacBook Pro and iMac" So by default its excludes the MBA.
They have said on previous occasions airs are declining.
What was said at the by Apple was sales were up 1% and revenue was up by 7% - you don't get that growth in revenue selling the bottom model on 1% increase in sales. Cook also called out "Mac revenue grew 7 percent year over year, driven by the strength of the MacBook Pro and iMac" So by default its excludes the MBA.
Thank you, as I respect yours (even though I won't use 'sarcasm' quotes).
It's a non-sequitur to say the MBA is obsolete because of those things. The retina screen as far as I'm concerned is like leather seats in a car. Retina is a nice to have -- i love it in my iPad. Do I need it for my desktop? No. Does is somehow render my MBA's screen non-functional? No.
SD cards are not obsolete. USB-A is not obsolete. I will only consider them so when the balance tips and they are no longer manufactured in quantities that make them matter. Hotels in most parts of the world still rock 30-pin dock connectors in their bed-side clocks.
Performance too is a relative measure. In what tasks does the rMacBook out-perform the MBA in meaningful ways? Does your rMB edit documents or photos noticeably faster than my MBA? Does it process JavaScript faster? What about video editing in Final Cut? Will it execute my Python code faster?
I'll give you 1 mark: it does support H.265 video in hardware. But so what, my 4K Samsung TV does that too and oddly enough that's where I prefer to watch movies.
Intel have not made enough year-on-year improvements for their janky 5-watt CPUs to outperform their class of 15-watt CPUs especially under load.
You also paint a very broad brush when you talk of consumers, the market and reviewers. I've read reviews (and seen many on YouTube) that praise the screen but disparage the keyboard and single port. I have seen many more MBAs in the wild than Apple's retina Macbook, even among the commuter crowd (I regularly fly for work between Melbourne, Sydney and Perth). In fact I see more Microsoft Surfaces than I do rMacBooks.
I have used the rMacBook and believe me, as an ultraportable user from before we had that term I really, really wanted to like it. The keyboard is terrible and the single-port is much too limiting for my needs as a mobile professional where I have to connect to legacy crap in clients' offices and hotel conference rooms all the time.
As a portable, yet full fledged computer, the MBA is still unmatched in terms of value, connectivity and performance. The retina MacBook is too limited, like the MBA was in 2008. Honestly in the class of device the rMB is trying to be, a fricking iPad Pro wins out in terms of cost, weight, value and cellular connectivity.
Honestly, I don't get who the rMB is for or what problem it's trying to solve.
Don't know about the reviewers, but "the market" still likes the MacBook Air. That is why Apple decided to update it instead of discontinue it - because it still sells so well.
That would have been my point on the market too. Apple is ruthless. They aren't keeping the MBA out of nostalgia, they are keeping it because its most likely their best-selling laptop.
Thank you! Great insight from a person who has a better idea of sales numbers than armchair analysts trying to tease detail out of Apple's official obfuscation.
I've seen maybe 5 rMB's in the wild in the two years since they've been released in the two most affluent cities in Australia. When they first came out they were cost-prohibitive (at least in the Australia), under powered and if Marco Ament and Matt Gemmell can be believed, highly prone to keyboard failures. Taken as a whole, I think they are tarnished or at best a luxury item for a class of user that can afford to upgrade/replace them on a regular basis.
Contrast that with the MBA being the laptop of choice in Aussie high schools, universities and as Apple's entry-level device for general consumers and professionals who prefer the MBA for the features it offers.
There is a strong market for ultrabooks with 15-watt CPUs and legacy ports: schools, enterprise, general consumers. This class of device is very well represented across the PC line. They are workhorses that can do just about any task that doesn't need a discreet GPU.
The retina Macbook is a niche product at best. Maybe that will start to change after a few more generations but I'm not jumping on that wagon until the trail is well blazed.