To all the trouble making mac haters

Discussion in 'Apple, Inc and Tech Industry' started by Macpropro80, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. Macpropro80 macrumors 6502

    Jan 31, 2009
    A letter to all the trouble making mac haters.

    1) Hating on macs in a forum created to cater to mac users is unproductive.

    2) Hating on apples hardware is ridiculous. If you don't like it, don't buy it. What your doing is comparing the price of a honda to a rolls royce. Sure they both have 4 wheels and a motor but that rolls royce has a higher build quality.

    3) Stop saying Dell's are a better deal then macs.
    3a) Dell uses low quality cheap parts
    3b) Just because your dell has 6 gigs of ddr2 660mhz ram does not make it better then a mac pro with 4 gigs of ddr3 1100mhz ram.
    3c) Dells customer service is horrid. Don't believe me? Call them and ask for help with a complex problem. Still don't believe me? call them and ask for help with a simple problem. They will make you run through the same steps.
    3d) Dell cuts corners. Don't believe me? Look inside your dell, now look at the inside of a mac pro.
    3e) Dell XPS is not the same as an imac, imacs are all in one, dell xps are desktops.

    4) Macs OS is better then windows, stop arguing its just a fact.
    4a) Mac osx uses ram much more efficiently
    4b) Mac OSX uses less CPU, not just for apps but for general use. Move a window around in vista or even XP, thats right your cpu usage just jumped to about 20-40%.
    4c) 1 app crashing won't bring your system down like in windows
    4d) Mac osx is easier to use. Dont argue, just compare macs system preferences to vista control panel.
    4e) NO DRIVERS in mac osx

    5) If you don't like macs, don't comment! No one wants to hear why you think mac suck.

    6) Not everyone buys there computer to game, most people have lives, we don't have time to game or chose not to.
  2. Tallest Skil macrumors P6

    Tallest Skil

    Aug 13, 2006
    1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
    Your heart is in the right place; I commend you for that.

    But your post is equally biased. :eek: If you really want them to can it, post non-biased information.

    If it is desired by the mods or administrators, I can draw up a new post on this topic with only non-biased, factual information.
  3. Macpropro80 thread starter macrumors 6502

    Jan 31, 2009
    I know that Im bias but I truly believe in what I say. I feel that it is fact.

    Though I wouldn't mind if you make a factual version for me :)
  4. spcdust macrumors 6502a


    May 6, 2008
    London, UK
    Oh man, that's the funniest post I've read in a while, kind of like the child in the school playground stamping his foot if they don't like what they hear. Priceless, absolutely priceless. Really, thanks for that point by point post and it's pompous title "A letter to all the trouble making mac haters"

    I love Apple, have Apple products at home, work on Macs etc. etc etc. However, I'm not so blind as to only see the positive in Apple, they are a company and some decisions they make are better then others. Just because some one says something negative about Apple, or makes a comparison to another product (misguided or otherwise) it doesn't make them a "Mac Hater", it all makes for open debate and discussion.

    If you don't like the thread then choose not to be part of it, rather than try to silence "The dissenters" Comrade Macpropo80:rolleyes::rolleyes:
  5. DannySmurf macrumors 6502a

    Jul 7, 2005
    So do the people you're criticizing, I'm sure.
  6. Tallest Skil macrumors P6

    Tallest Skil

    Aug 13, 2006
    1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
    Okay, then, I will. Oh, and we can treat this post like we treated my Mac Pro thread; if new information arises, I can edit it.

    To those who say that PCs are outright better than Macs without any causality, and to those who say that Macs are outright better than PCs without any causality:

    What is the basis of your argument: hardware or software?

    Let's look at the facts.

    OS X is UNIX, Windows is... what, MS-DOS-based? I don't remember.

    For OS X, security is NOT a function of marketshare. Meaning that, as OS X approaches 50% marketshare, it will not instantly start being less secure as more and more malicious software is written for it. I believe the phrase is, "because no one cares about it" or "because fewer people us it".

    This is fallacy. UNIX is inherently more secure than the system on which Windows is based. It is much more difficult (I won't say impossible until I am told that it is impossible) for a malicious program to run or install without the end-user telling it to do so.

    Operationally, OS X provides a cleaner, more simplistic interface than Windows, but lacks some of its features (such as cut and paste in the Finder). Recent developments with Snow Leopard show that Apple is adding more capabilities to the Finder in OS X.

    I don't have the time right now to add more to this post, so as more points on both the hardware and software front come forth, I will add them. Let's try our best to get as much information here as possible. We can never END this argument–I'm not even going to try–but with enough good information, we can certainly have INTELLIGENT discussion about both OS' and their means of distribution to end-users.

    In essence, I want this to become:

    Where is Apple correct (in all its practices)?, Where is Microsoft correct (in all its practices)?, What do we want from both of them in the future? and... something else. That'd be nice to have a fourth major topic.
  7. Macpropro80 thread starter macrumors 6502

    Jan 31, 2009
    Hardware + software. As long as macs win! :)
  8. Jack Flash macrumors 65816

    May 8, 2007
    Couldn't let this go, sorry.
  9. Thunderbird macrumors 6502a


    Dec 25, 2005
  10. DannySmurf macrumors 6502a

    Jul 7, 2005
    The NT line (including 2000, XP, Vista and 7) are derived from OS/2, actually.
  11. mastershakess macrumors 6502

    May 14, 2008
    Bel Air, MD
    So enjoying a nice session of Fallout 3 or a game of Team Fortress 2 after a long day of work means I have no life?

    The video card issue goes beyond the idea of games. I think its the plain fact people don't like the idea of paying $1200-1500 for a computer with integrated graphics, seems like a step backwards to me. This is just my opinion, take it or leave it :)
  12. Tallest Skil macrumors P6

    Tallest Skil

    Aug 13, 2006
    1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
    I remember!

    So that's what became of it. They're not moving very quickly on the site transfer... Snow Leopard and Se7en will be out before they get done. :D

    Going back to their old site, though, you can see the final outcome.
  13. Shivetya macrumors 65816

    Jan 16, 2008
    1. By your definition any contrary view is hating, which basically summarizes your view as you will hold your breath till you get your way.

    2. Discussing the lack of progress and features is not hating. Heck, hating is word used by imbeciles on the play ground.

    3a. Dell and Apple use similar suppliers and even have used (and may still use) the same builders on certain lines.

    3b. Bogus comparisons don't support your case, it makes you look like your reaching... or just whining

    3c. Dell's service has been better for my parents than both cases of Apple support for me. Dell at least came out to my parents house the NEXT day and had them up in 20 minutes with a new main board. Me, both times I fuddled for hours on the phone with Apple support only to take it in (had to box it up) and lose access for WEEKS. Oh, blown main board once and blown video the second time.

    3d. You, let alone most people, would not know what they are looking at. Still reaching for straws? Try Dairy Queen.

    3e. Wow, something truthful for once. Guess what, there is a large number of us asking for a real desktop that doesn't charge a punitive fee for a fancy case (let alone locking us into a display size we might not find optimal)

    4) In many cases it is nicer, is some ways its a bear (What is UP with finders ****** performance, I can index faster on cards)

    4a) Link?

    4b) Link?

    4c) Oh, obviously you haven't had some fun apps take you down, like Quicktime, but I blame that on the people who wrote Quicktime... who is that again? I can kill an app just as easy in either. Getting out of a fullscreen locked up app sucks on both platforms

    4d) if you started on it is... for some tasks its a maddening dance of key board and mouse and don't get me started on the fixed bar at top.

    4e) I wish, they are there, Apple just doesn't have to suffer with every Tom and Jane company that wants to offer hardware.

    5) Dissenting opinions are not allowed? Are you holding your breath yet?

    6) I have a great life, I game on my Mac, and I have a great job. I also apparently enjoy things much more than someone obsessed with hating. Really, take a chill pill.

    Summary, a bunch of unsupported supposition and hyperbole.
  14. Beerfloat macrumors regular


    Feb 21, 2009
    Some of these points are rather debatable but I'll just talk about the ones that I think are plain wrong.

    Dell sells many, many more models than Apple. Some Dells use lower speed lower cost parts. Equivalently priced Dells use comparable parts.

    Basic service is hit or miss (it isn't any different with Apple), but Dell offers paid service options that go way beyond what Apple can do. There are various SLAs and then there's Dell's Complete Care warranty which is among the best in the industry.

    The insides of Precision workstations look clean and well thought out. Very easy to service also.

    In almost all cases, 1 app crashing will not bring your system down in Windows either. Have you tried any Windows versions since 95?

    The Vista Control Panel in non-classic mode has fewer categories and is arguably just as well laid out as System Preferences on OS X.

    Both a blessing and a curse.

    But I do :)
  15. Unspeaked macrumors 68020


    Dec 29, 2003
    West Coast
    Try not to get crushed by that chip falling off the OP's shoulder...
  16. Beerfloat macrumors regular


    Feb 21, 2009
    The NT kernel, which is a not terribly large monolithic kernel with multiple personalities including POSIX, and which is losely based on VMS. Forget DOS, that hasn't been true for a very very long time.

    Unix is not inherently more secure than NT or any other multiuser, multitasking, multithreading operating system kernel written in C and C++. Arguably, Unix has actually acquired more cruft over its long history. But the popularity of Windows, services running on Windows (SQL Server) and applications on Windows (Internet Explorer and Outlook) make it a much more rewarding target. Security through obscurity is not inherent security though.
  17. MacGeekPro macrumors newbie

    Mar 8, 2009
    You are honestly my Hero MacProPro.
    This thread is exactly what those PC user need to get through that think firewall to the brain!
    I openly support Mac and Apple as much as possible at school yet most people turn up there nose at a Mac (unless I allow they to play on my Macbook Pro).

    We have old, old G4's and G5's at school and we I am always trying to defend Apple because they are quite old but still beautiful.

    Mac's are changing the world everyday.

  18. Jack Flash macrumors 65816

    May 8, 2007
    OP is filled with FUD and RDF. You might want to rethink your strategy.
  19. mac 2005 macrumors 6502a

    mac 2005

    Apr 1, 2005
    It's threads like this one that make me wish for an automated "Ignore" button. Can we please add that capability to the drop-down menu?

    I'm not saying we can't have substantive input from new Mac users, but posts such as this are all too common whenever someone discovers this site and decides to buy the house a round of the Kool Aid. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree -- ;) -- and my experience has been that people who weigh in with diatribes this early in their membership seldom bear fruit in the future. Sometimes we need to be protected from the trouble-making Mac lovers. :rolleyes:
  20. GGJstudios macrumors Westmere


    May 16, 2008
    "Gee! I'm just so giddy with all my blind Mac-love that I feel like slapping a Windows user!!!! Wheeeeeeee!!!" :rolleyes:

    Don't get me wrong: After being a Windows "power-user" since the very first IBM PC hit the streets, I switched to Mac about a year ago and my only regret is I didn't do it sooner! But there's no such thing as a perfect computer or perfect operating system. The OP's post, like some others, is filled with inaccuracies and irrelevancies, not to mention being downright inflammatory. Yes, I still prefer Mac over PC, but that doesn't mean PC or Windows users are substandard human beings. Many in these forums use both. Show a little class and don't be one of those mindless "fanboys" who give Mac users a bad name!
  21. GoCubsGo macrumors Nehalem


    Feb 19, 2005
    I would so send you a friend request of facebook if I knew you better!
    My first two thoughts were:
    O Rly? This dude clearly needs a hobby!
    Umm isn't this just the same as the windows-lovers who start up in the forums?

    I say ... WTF cares?
  22. jaymils83 macrumors newbie

    Mar 6, 2009

    I just purchased a new macbook pro. 1st ever. i was (am?) a pc user. mayber your insight will help me understand why mac users are so devoted. i definetly am not a full convert to mac yet........

    however it is a nice looking machine
  23. MacGeekPro macrumors newbie

    Mar 8, 2009
    Well mate, There will never be a better time to convert to Mac. Even if your still a PC user, I'll accept you into the Mac family because you have made the right choice into getting a Macbook Pro.

  24. michael.lauden macrumors 68020


    Dec 25, 2008
    why is this such a big deal

    chill out it's a computer
  25. Winni macrumors 68030


    Oct 15, 2008
    The NT kernel originally was a Mach-kernel, just like the kernel of OS X, which still is a Mach-kernel. And no, Apple did not event that concept, neither did Microsoft.

    Mach kernels are modular and produce a lot of communication overhead, which makes them less efficient than monolithic kernels like Linux. That's why Microsoft mostly gave up on the Mach-design and moved many parts back to a monolithic design. And that's also why Linux never went modular in the first place. Your "beach ball" in OS X is --the-- symptom for that communication overhead and how it actually slows down the performance of the system.

    Modular kernels supposedly are more "beautiful in design" and supposedly also more robust, because a failing module in theory shouldn't be possible to bring down the entire system. However, our "beach ball of death" shows us a different reality - it is usually caused by an interruption in that communication flow and the respective kernel modules wait for all eternity for synchronization which is no longer possible because one or more kernel modules went South.

    Andrew S. Tannenbaum, the father of Minix and Amoeba, champions modular kernels. Hurd also is a modular kernel, which might be the reason why it never gets finished.

    Communication within a monolithic kernel is more efficient, faster and as Linux demonstrates in reality even more robust than most modular designs. On the very same hardware - a Mac - OS X usually is the slowest of all operating systems at any given task, while Linux usually is the fastest. The NT family is between the two.

    And, yes, the NT family also has a Posix subsystem to allow source code compatibility with compliant Unix (console) applications. Furthermore, the NT family of operating systems never ever had one single bit of DOS in its core. It has a DOS-compatible subsystem that is launched when needed. And for clarification, what most people call a "DOS prompt" in NT-systems actually is an NT command prompt and NOT DOS-compatible by default. It -looks- like DOS, but it uses a completely different command interpreter (CMD.EXE) and not the DOS command interpreter (COMMAND.COM). It's also not DOS what's running there, but an NT console and applications running in that mode are true NT applications with full access to all NT APIs. However, a DOS subsystem is activated when a legacy app requires it.

    About the VMS->WNT myth: Dave Cutler, the mind behind VMS, joined Microsoft rather late in the design process of Win NT. He added his famous name to an already very advanced project. Not unsimilar to Steve Jobs adding his name to the Mac project.

    You should also note that Windows NT already was an enterprise-ready 32-Bit operating system with support for multi-processing, pre-emptive multi-threading AND multiple hardware platforms (Sparc, Alpha, HP and i386) years before Apple bought NeXTstep and when Apple actually still was only selling a 16-Bit operating system with cooperative multi-threading.

    I've been using Windows NT since version 3.50 in business environments and when that platform began its success story, Apple was struggling for survival and a total nobody in the business world. But in all honesty, they still are a nobody in the business world. I've yet to see the first company in real life that runs its servers with OS X. Everybody uses an NT-based product or Solaris or something from the Linux family. Even a few BSDs are out there, but OS X is --NOWHERE-- to be seen.

    So much for the reality in the server rooms. And on the business desktop, almost everything you can find is also a member of the NT family (2000, XP, Vista). The German Axel Springer Verlag probably is the largest company that tries to migrate to OS X desktops. Time will tell if they succeed.

    OS X is NOT a good platform for enterprise-level rollouts or mass deployments. NT, on the other hand, was designed from foundation to top for customized and network-based deployment.

    You guys should try to deploy 1,000 or more desktops with a standardized software installation with both OS X and NT. Something tells me that you will no longer be so excited about OS X after that experience.

    But I don't even have to deploy the software images myself. You see, I can order 1,000 computers from Dell and --THEY-- install --my-- software image on each machine for me. Try getting that service from Apple.

    Dell service sucks? And maybe HP's service sucks, too? You live in a dream world. These guys have an enterprise grade support the consumer company Apple can only dreams of. Not only fix they a broken machine within four hours WITHOUT any discussion, they also have what I would call "SWAT teams" when you have some seriously complex network problems - like the kind of problems that you run into when you are moving a dozen agencies to a 30-floor skyscraper. (Yes, I've been there and done that with them - I'm not talking fiction here.)

    Oh, and about the "cheap parts" that Dell supposedly puts into their machines: You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Dell's parts come from the same Chinese factories where your Apple parts come from. Open a 30" Apple Cinema Display and a 30" Dell display and tell me if you find a real difference. Except for maybe that the Dell has more features like a card reader. Then tell me if you find different chip sets or hard disks in a Dell.

    There's no shame in this, but face it: Your Mac is a PC in a designer case running a FreeBSD-based operating system with a proprietary GUI, nothing more.

    A few last comments about security:

    There are no secure systems - at least not as long as there will be human users.

    However, Microsoft went through great lengths to make Vista secure but still usable, and they did the same with their servers.

    In reality, you -will- protect your entire network with security appliances that filter all incoming and outgoing network traffic, and you will also install anti-virus software on all machines. And in a business environment you -will- do the same on Macs, no matter how much you believe how secure they are.

    The most dangerous malware is the one nobody knows of. Because the dangerous criminals want to have access to your network without being noticed. And they want to come back to your system.

    Furthermore, the most dangerous factor for a system's security still comes from within the company/organization. It's the disgruntled employee who willingly installs the backdoor software. It's usually a movie myth that people break into your network -- such attempts usually end in a denial of service and unresponsive servers. But not in a security breach. No, successful attackers normally have help from the inside.

    But even without those scary movie scenes, every normal corporate network is protected by multiple layers of defense and you have to pass several firewalls -and- security appliances and traffic filters before you even hit your first server. By that time, most malware has already been filtered out.

    Then you have another filter on your mail and file servers.

    Then another one on your workstations.

    And still, the crap gets through. And this would also happen if everybody was using Unix systems. Because then the folks would invest their energy in exploiting those systems - written by humans, used by humans, therefor flawed by design.

    Sure, Unixes probably are more secure than Windows-based systems, although I'm no longer so sure since Vista 64 is out; Vista 64 is rather safe. But a lot of that security -does- come from the fact that there still is not much interest in exploiting those systems. It's also a cost-benefit issue; if it's easier to build a bot net with 100 million home computers running XP than with 10 million home computers running OS X, why the heck would I even think about trying to hack OS X?

    I know that this is regarded as a FUD argument, but I think it is a very valid argument.

    Anyway. There are huge traffic websites that completely run on Windows. eBay, for example. Or the World Health Organization and several other United Nations agencies. And they all work without show-stopping security issues. So obviously even non-Unix-based networks can be made secure.

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