Why do you need access to every page if there is a HTML version that serves the same content.
Because there isn't an HTML version that serves the same content. You are talking about something that has never -- and will never -- exist.
Not at all. I share the vision of an accessible web where every webpage can be accessed by ever user -- regardless of their ability. I have lost my tolerance for nonsense statements of "solutions" to the Flash accessibility problem that will never ever be implemented by anyone.
You solve accessibility with Flash sites in addition to HTML sites.
If that were true, you would tell us how it would work and how you would ensure that all Flash sites were coded that way. You would explain how we go from a state where nobody -- including you -- is doing that to a state where all Flash pages are doing it.
Claiming that your dogmatic statement somehow "solves" the Flash accessibility problem is wholly nonsensical.
Just like your conclusion drawn from your assumption that ARM devices would be different than Intel devices as far as Windows 8 desktop mode is concerned. Which is really what this thread is about.
ARM devices in Metro Mode will not play Flash in the browser.
Once again, you sidestepped the question: you
used the label of hypocrite but have failed to ever explain that claim. Please be accountable for your statements.
In an accessible web, Flash is not part of any website content.
In an accessible web you would have both.
Without explaining how Flash content can be accessible, simply repeating the dogmatic claim is not forwarding the discussion.
With all due respect, that's not a real recommendation for anybody. You have already acknowledged that clients are unwilling to pay twice for a solution -- that you have never ever had a client willing to fund any accessibility on the websites you make for them. You have never ever taken your own advice; why would any Flash developers listen to you?
We can ignore issues of plumbing: how a user would actually specify to websites that they'd rather get this hypothetical HTML5 content rather than Flash code. We will ignore the irony that Adobe has never provided a mechanism for users to actually inform websites that they don't want Flash. Flash has always been an "all or nothing" thing for Adobe. The most interesting twist is that Adobe is now advocating the "nothing" approach: no Flash at all.
Why is HTML5 content hypothetical now?
Who said it was? Did you even read the post you're responding to?
I presume that people here in a dialog will act in an intellectually honest fashion, but you don't seem to be acting that way. We need to have a give-and-take, and you have been tap-dancing around questions for way too long:
Your "solution" to the accessibility problem is to somehow do both Flash and HTML. But a platitude has essentially zero to do with an actual solution. Here are the main issues:
1. Why would Flash programmers be willing to create duplicate content in HTML? In these forums, you yourself have explicitly told us you've never had a web client who was willing to spend a dime on making sites you've developed be accessible.
2. What examples do you have of any site anywhere that's doing what you recommend? If you can't even give us an example of one site, how could what you're recommending possibly be a solution?
3. Do you do what you recommend on your own site? Do you do it on your customer sites? If even you don't do what you're recommending, it's a total non starter.
4. How would the actual plumbing work for HTML content to go to the people who wanted HTML and Flash to go to the people who wanted Flash? Since Adobe Flash isn't currently designed with the right plumbing to do the job, what's the value to speculate about such things without Adobe sign-in?
@darngooddesign: the time has come to drop the pretense. Flash and accessibility do not mix. Adobe has no commitment to modify Flash at all to make accessibility work.
And in that article it is shown that product is very limited as far as what it can do. Nothing that gives any kind of advanced interactivity is exported. It is good for linear animations.
Then take it up with Adobe! Ask John Nack how you should be dealing with your problems! Go onto Flash programming blogs and find out how your fellow programmers are succeeding at making their websites Flash-free.
Flash will never ever run directly on iOS machines: somewhere around 45M iPads and over 250M iOS devices in all. If you want to provide a solution on all those machines, you need to figure out how to code your sites in HTML. If you don't do it, there are plenty of other web programmers who will deal with them. In any case, complaining in this forum about your HTML problems seems to be a rather pointless exercise.
Please show proof that HTML sites all share the same interface.
Who ever said that they did?
Here's the disconnect: while HTML sites can indeed have bad interfaces, the Flash interface
mandates that the browser works differently than HTML apps. Flash categorically degrades the user experience. And Flash can never ever deliver accessibility.
I have always supposed that people who hate Flash the most are those who really don't want to have any fun on the web.
I don't know anyone who hates Flash. I like the
idea of Flash in the browser, but I think the
execution of Flash has always been a failure.
Really. Flash developers had to re-deploy their websites to make two-fingered scrolling work, and many have never bothered. Or the Flash developer is long gone. If you think about it, this means that Flash really isn't WORA.
You sound worried that some poor computer user might not understand why two-finger scrolling feels different in Flash than on HTML.
I'm annoyed that my browser behaves differently in Flash programs than otherwise. I'm annoyed that certain keyboard shortcuts just stop working in Flash. I've worked with several seniors; they had absolutely no idea why things worked differently in Flash -- they thought they were doing something wrong.
If they can't there is always a scrollbar.
In other words, if the browser experience degrades while running Flash, that's just fine by you.
Most people deal with several platforms, Android, BB, iOS, Mac, and PC without blowing a gasket over the differences.
I don't know about "most people". I do know that the seniors I work with use a single computer almost exclusively. There is no good reason they should have to deal with a shifting interface when running Flash code.
For seniors who need their computer's accessibility adapters, Flash fails to deliver.
The expression has to do with the cobbler being so busy taking care of other peoples' shoes he doesn't have time for his kids.
Of course. Your use of the analogy was a FAIL. You told us, "There should always be a simple html version of Flash sites." But you don't do this on your own site, and you don't do it on your customer sites. You talk the talk, but you don't walk the walk.
It's nothing personal. If we had to count on Flash developers to provide a parallel HTML version of their sites, we will never ever get to an accessible web.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the chances of a blind art director looking over my portfolio is pretty low. Therefore I don't have to prioritize accessibility.
But there might be blind people who go to a bar, and you provided nothing on that client's website. Flash programmers just don't provide accessibility.
Do you also realize that there are all sorts of disabilities other than blindness? Saying that you don't need to prioritize accessibility because blind people wouldn't use your site is a really silly argument. AFAICT, you are truly tone-deaf to the entire accessibility issue.
As Adobe's John Nack noted, clients are invariably to pay twice for a Flash and HTML website. The number and percentage of machines that are Flash-free is constantly growing. Smart business are taking Adobe's recommendation and getting rid of their Flash websites.
The time has come to drop the facade about Flash and accessibility. Please give a straight and thoughtful answer to the four numbered questions above. And please give a straight and thoughtful answer to the most important question here:
How can we possibly solve the accessibility problem on the web without flushing Flash?
