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Toyota halts sales of vehicles due to safety defect

A couple of comments:

1) The problem with the Prius brakes are similar to a problem Ford had recently with the Fusion Hybrid sedan--a weird feeling on the brakes as it switches from engine braking to mechanical braking. Ford fixed the problem with a software upgrade to the hybrid drivetrain computer, and it appears Toyota will do the same.

2) Toyota may have to redesign their Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer so it cuts off the throttle during braking (which is standard practice on other modern automobiles with electronic throttle controls). If it cannot be implemented in the ECU software, that could mean millions of Toyotas will need new ECU modules--a cost that could run into several billion US dollars.
 
SactoGuy18 said:
A couple of comments:

1) The problem with the Prius brakes are similar to a problem Ford had recently with the Fusion Hybrid sedan--a weird feeling on the brakes as it switches from engine braking to mechanical braking. Ford fixed the problem with a software upgrade to the hybrid drivetrain computer, and it appears Toyota will do the same.

2) Toyota may have to redesign their Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer so it cuts off the throttle during braking (which is standard practice on other modern automobiles with electronic throttle controls). If it cannot be implemented in the ECU software, that could mean millions of Toyotas will need new ECU modules--a cost that could run into several billion US dollars.
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This is really going to be like Ford's cruise control switch problem......

I will repeat this, Toyota has reacted poorly to this. I don't find the report of millions of these vehicles being affected to be troubling( obviously it is a common part in a lot of Toyota's vehicles and the way they are selling, if the part had to be recalled, it would be a big one). It's the fact they knew about this issue possibly around 2004 and didn't do anything until the NHTSA/media forced them to. This echo's the Corvair fiasco where GM deemed it to be cheaper to deal with the lawsuits then to recall the Corvair's to fix the design flaw they had.
 
quagmire said:
This echo's the Corvair fiasco where GM deemed it to be cheaper to deal with the lawsuits then to recall the Corvair's to fix the design flaw they had.
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Just like Fight Club...

A new car built by my company leaves somewhere traveling at 60 mph. The rear differential locks up. The car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
 
I found this funny. :)

toyoter.jpg
 
iGav said:
Actually... I was thinking about this last night, I wonder what the potential legal ramifications are if you knowingly drive a Toyota model (or a PSA and possibly Lexus soon too) that is subject to the recall, and are then involved in an accident that was caused by the known fault.
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The only PSA vehicle involved is the 107/C1/Aygo of which is the same car and the only joint venture between PSA & Toyota. This only affects Peugeot/Citroen 107/C1's with the top end ABS systems which only accounts for about 1k vehicles.

For people outside Europe the C1/107/Aygo is a small city vehicle that gets around 70mpg with a 1 litre engine and 68 horsepower :p
 
garybUK said:
The only PSA vehicle involved is the 107/C1/Aygo of which is the same car and the only joint venture between PSA & Toyota.
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Yup. Though despite platform sharing, they're still considered separate cars, subject to individual recalls, and remember the recall will be at the very least pan-European in the first two instances, and both pan-European & pan-Asian in the latter instance.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Lexus models too.

That it's taken Toyota half a decade to address this is frankly astonishing... though perhaps back then their minds were pre-occupied with their then 1.4 million car recall. :eek:
 
Was just watching ....Fox dont say it to loud Shepard Smith who is about as close as they get to News and not spin and they had a ex Lawyer for Toyota who was saying the were destroying evidence, telling lies,withholding evidence etc during trials. Wow this hole is getting deeper and deeper.
 
SactoGuy18 said:
A couple of comments:

1) The problem with the Prius brakes are similar to a problem Ford had recently with the Fusion Hybrid sedan--a weird feeling on the brakes as it switches from engine braking to mechanical braking. Ford fixed the problem with a software upgrade to the hybrid drivetrain computer, and it appears Toyota will do the same.
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Subaru had a similar problem on WRXs a while back, the ABS would freak out and cause the brakes to not work right on bumpy roads. I don't remember what they did to fix it.
2) Toyota may have to redesign their Engine Control Unit (ECU) computer so it cuts off the throttle during braking (which is standard practice on other modern automobiles with electronic throttle controls).
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I'm pretty sure that's not the case for anything with DBW and a manual transmission. Even though it's a small portion of total sales, the amount of hell raised due to the car not allowing heel&toe braking. I certainly would stay away from any 3 pedal car that wouldn't let me.
 
Counterfit said:
Subaru had a similar problem on WRXs a while back, the ABS would freak out and cause the brakes to not work right on bumpy roads. I don't remember what they did to fix it.
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My brother had that with his previous car (not a Subaru), turned out it was a cracked ABS Reluctor Ring, when the car went over a sufficiently serious bump, the sensor picked up the fault and disabled the ABS system.

Counterfit said:
I'm pretty sure that's not the case for anything with DBW and a manual transmission. Even though it's a small portion of total sales, the amount of hell raised due to the car not allowing heel&toe braking. I certainly would stay away from any 3 pedal car that wouldn't let me.
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It is the case, BOSCH already employ it with their Motronic engine management systems.

To quote... "It is worth noting that if the accelerator and brake pedals are both depressed, the ECU detects the condition and brings the engine to idle speed as a safety feature, ignoring the accelerator input. (During "normal" driving this presents no obstacle, but enthusiastic drivers who can do racing-style "heel and toe" downshifts while braking may find that this safety feature thwarts their attempt to "match revs".
 
Smoking gun memo...

Toyota Memo Brags of Saving $100M with "Limited" Recall

The claim, the Wall Street Journal notes, was made in a presentation for Toyota executives titled “Wins for Toyota Safety Group.” Among the “wins” the document lists are the savings claim, as well as a federal government “decision to close safety investigations of the Toyota Tacoma truck without ordering recalls, and delays to new safety rules that saved the company hundreds of millions of dollars.”
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http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/daily-news/100222-Toyota-Memo-Brags-of-Saving-100M-with-Limited-Recall/
 
quagmire said:
House Committee determined that Toyota has misled the public.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/house-panel-determines-toyota-misled-public.html
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danny_w said:
Yeah, it doesn't exactly sound like "safety first" does it?
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I am sure Toyota Motors will survive this episode but it was long overdue for the company... as CEO Akio Toyoda addresses Washington lawmakers today a chink in the Toyota armor is quite apparent. For decades Toyota was the sterling choice and many in the automotive business have long questioned how Toyota's commitment to quality squared with their zeal to sell tons of admittedly problematic cars. The winners in the short run will be other brands (Ford, GM, etc.) as maybe a few buyers question what they're really buying with a Toyota! Many others, however, long-time Toyota fans, will remain loyal to the company despite what has happened. Toyota dealers - dogmatic supporters of the brand - are still saying nothing is wrong and many are in denial of the brake, steering, and other technical issues affecting the Toyota and Lexus vehicles. I suspect this whole episode will prompt a return of a familiar phrase we Americans have heard before but it won't be from Toyota but instead Ford: "Quality is Job #1," as they seek to convince buyers there is an alternative choice!
 
yg17 said:
Yes, it's called Honda, Nissan, Volkswagen, Hyundai, Audi, Kia, BMW or Acura. It'll be a cold day in hell before I buy another American car (or a Toyota for that matter)
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I'd put my Ford Fusion up against any of those brands when it comes to overall quality. It's not 1985 anymore.
 
Wow, it just keeps on piling on for Toyota. Check out this article discussing one lady's experience with her Lexus while testifying in front of Congress. This is why I love driving a manual transmission. No electronic nannies to interfere with my driving. When I put my car in neutral, it goes into neutral.
 
yg17 said:
Don't care. The American cars we've owned have left a bad enough impression on us that I wouldn't touch one with a ten foot pole.
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Your perception is wrong when it comes to many of the new American cars. You are basing all of your opinions on outdated models that are no longer produced.

I know the Fusion is an excellent car because 1) I own one and have never had one recall or warranty repair. 2) I have family members and friends that own one and have never had a recall or warranty repair. 3) It is rated above many of the cars you "think" are better when it comes to quality and reliability.

In fact, the conventional Fusion has NEVER been recalled since it entered production in 2005. NEVER. Now the Fusion Hybrid was recalled to update the braking software, but I think that record is unheard of when it comes to the automotive industry.
If you can show me a foreign made mid-sized sedan with better overall quality ratings then the Fusion I'd love to see it. Data on today's models count not personal experience with past models.

I will never change your opinion of American cars and that is fine. What I do want to do with this post is correct the perception that somehow today's American cars are not as good as foreign cars. Sure Chrysler is producing some real crap, but both Ford and GM have some great new models with quality and reliability that is just as good as the imports. Don't just say they are not any good without some research and time behind the wheel.
 
Ford is really on a roll. If any CEO truly deserves a nice, fat salary, he does. He has done some great things with Ford. They finally wised up decided to bring the European version of the Focus, which has gotten great reviews, to the US. Last time, Europe got a good Focus, and the US got a slightly remodeled version of an old platform. The new Fiesta looks to be a good addition, as well. The Fusion is vastly improved over the old model. I had a Mazda 6, the model the old Fusion was based on, and to me, the Fusion seemed inferior. The chassis didn't seem as solid, and I didn't like the interior. The new model is a huge upgrade.

GM is good, if bland. The Chevy Malibu is an excellent car. GM's problem has been one of marketing and bad platform decisions. For example, after the last Malibu redesign, it became a clearly better can than the Impala. It was almost the same size, had a better interior, better drivetrains, and exterior styling (although styling is subjective). Yet the Impala continued on. I won't even go into their habit of selling the same vehicle with slightly different styling in several different brands. Also, GM seems to have a problem with small cars. Their mainstream sedans, however, have been pretty good recently.

Honestly, though, I can understand the aversion to American cars. To be honest, most new cars are fairly reliable these days. Most of them can hit 100k miles with ease. 30-40 years ago, this was unheard of. The problem most American brands have had recently is in the small details. Things like using hard, ugly plastics in the dash and other interior parts when Honda is using a good looking, softer plastic. Things like the quality of the seating material, and the carpets. American car companies have tried to cut costs in little areas like that for years (GM especially), and it has made a difference. When cars are so similar on the big things, little things start to make the difference.
 
Abercrombieboy said:
I know the Fusion is an excellent car because 1) I own one and have never had one recall or warranty repair. 2) I have family members and friends that own one and have never had a recall or warranty repair. 3) It is rated above many of the cars you "think" are better when it comes to quality and reliability.
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Here's the thing though - the Fusion hasn't been around long enough to change my perception yet. I'm not saying the Fusion isn't an excellent car, but come back to me with a ten year old Fusion sporting 200K miles, and at that point I'll form my own conclusion.
 
steve2112 said:
GM is good, if bland. The Chevy Malibu is an excellent car. GM's problem has been one of marketing and bad platform decisions. For example, after the last Malibu redesign, it became a clearly better can than the Impala. It was almost the same size, had a better interior, better drivetrains, and exterior styling (although styling is subjective). Yet the Impala continued on. I won't even go into their habit of selling the same vehicle with slightly different styling in several different brands. Also, GM seems to have a problem with small cars. Their mainstream sedans, however, have been pretty good recently.
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There is the Cruze coming this summer to replace the Cobalt and the new Aveo is coming as well.

The Impala is finally getting a replacement within 3 years time( way overdo) on the same Super Epsilon II platform that the Cadillac XTS is riding on( that thing is quite big. Though don't get me started how stupid GM is giving Cadillac an Epsilon II vehicle. It should have been a Zeta based vehicle instead).

The main reason why the Impala is taking so long is because over the last 3 years, it's future has been changed at least 3 times. It was originally going to be on Zeta to go against the 300, Charger, etc. Then CAFE hit and GM scrapped that plan. Then it went to Epsilon II. A year later GM again changed the plans by killing the Impala by 2013 and reviving it around 2015 based on an extended Alpha platform( the same RWD platform the Cadillac ATS is going to ride on). And then finally GM arrived at the current plan of the Super Epsilon II based Impala.
 
quagmire said:
There is the Cruze coming this summer to replace the Cobalt and the new Aveo is coming as well.

The Impala is finally getting a replacement within 3 years time( way overdo) on the same Super Epsilon II platform that the Cadillac XTS is riding on( that thing is quite big. Though don't get me started how stupid GM is giving Cadillac an Epsilon II vehicle. It should have been a Zeta based vehicle instead).

The main reason why the Impala is taking so long is because over the last 3 years, it's future has been changed at least 3 times. It was originally going to be on Zeta to go against the 300, Charger, etc. Then CAFE hit and GM scrapped that plan. Then it went to Epsilon II. A year later GM again changed the plans by killing the Impala by 2013 and reviving it around 2015 based on an extended Alpha platform( the same RWD platform the Cadillac ATS is going to ride on). And then finally GM arrived at the current plan of the Super Epsilon II based Impala.
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You are better than me. I gave up trying to keep up with the wacky world of GM platforms. I was seriously hoping they would bring the Pontiac G8 into Chevy as the Impala SS. Zeta is the RWD platform the G8 was based on, right? Like I said, I gave up keeping track of it all.

I wonder about the Cruze. I have seen a couple of preliminary reviews of the European model, and they haven't been really great. The new Aveo actually looks like a big upgrade.

The Impala/Malibu is just one example of GM doing weird things with their models. Remember how they sold the old Malibu along side the new and improved Malibu? Yeah, it was renamed the Classic, but still. It just seems to me they were trying to milk every last penny out of that old platform. It was another example of the accountants running that company.
 
steve2112 said:
You are better than me. I gave up trying to keep up with the wacky world of GM platforms. I was seriously hoping they would bring the Pontiac G8 into Chevy as the Impala SS. Zeta is the RWD platform the G8 was based on, right? Like I said, I gave up keeping track of it all.
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Yes, Zeta is the platform the G8 rode on( as well as Camaro). The Commodore may end up back in the US just yet though. Not as an Impala though. ;)

I wonder about the Cruze. I have seen a couple of preliminary reviews of the European model, and they haven't been really great. The new Aveo actually looks like a big upgrade.
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Most of the negative things I have heard about the Cruze in Europe is that there is no wagon version and the 1.8 Ecotec is not the smoothest engine ever. For the US trim, unless you buy the stripper trim, you will get the 1.4 Turbo Ecotec engine. The 1.8 Ecotec will only be on the LS trim.

The Impala/Malibu is just one example of GM doing weird things with their models. Remember how they sold the old Malibu along side the new and improved Malibu? Yeah, it was renamed the Classic, but still. It just seems to me they were trying to milk every last penny out of that old platform. It was another example of the accountants running that company.
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The Malibu Classic was a fleet sale only model.

Again though, the 2006 refresh of the Impala was meant to be a stopgap as the plan was for the Zeta Impala to arrive by 2010. But, like posted above the plans have changed so many times that it pushed it back 3 years.
 
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