Training Load?

oeagleo

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Feb 5, 2016
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West Jordan, Utah
Is there any way to determine Training Load, or recovery time using the R-R values in the Apple Watch environment? I've been using a Garmin Fenix 5+, and really like the idea of the Training load over the week to see if I'm overdoing it, along with the estimated recovery time for each activity. Anyone? Apps, or just through the features of the watch/app?
 

oeagleo

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Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
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West Jordan, Utah
Could always just export into Strava or TrainingPeaks and work from that?
I do that now, but I'm trying to wean myself off of using Garmin Connect, and Movescount. Movescount will calculate the training load, and EPOC, but nothing that I've found as of yet will calculate recovery. I have found one app (HRV4Training) that says it will do just what I'm looking for, but haven't used it enough to form a pattern. It's another $9.99, but if it does what I want, then that's okay. I really do miss the web capability of having all of my stats in one place like Garmin Connect has, but then.. *sigh*
 

FunkyMagicUK

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Oct 26, 2018
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I do that now, but I'm trying to wean myself off of using Garmin Connect, and Movescount. Movescount will calculate the training load, and EPOC, but nothing that I've found as of yet will calculate recovery. I have found one app (HRV4Training) that says it will do just what I'm looking for, but haven't used it enough to form a pattern. It's another $9.99, but if it does what I want, then that's okay. I really do miss the web capability of having all of my stats in one place like Garmin Connect has, but then.. *sigh*
If you’re syncing data to Movescount, can’t you get the other Suunto app, login with same credentials and I’m pretty sure it estimates “recovery”...I used to use this before I (accidentally) smashed my Suunto!
 

oeagleo

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Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
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West Jordan, Utah
If you’re syncing data to Movescount, can’t you get the other Suunto app, login with same credentials and I’m pretty sure it estimates “recovery”...I used to use this before I (accidentally) smashed my Suunto!
I was using the beta Suunto App when I had my SSWHR Baro, but because it was clunky at best, and didn't offer anywhere near what the Movescount, or Garmin Connect offered, I deleted it. I guess I could try to sync to the "real" app that the SA is based upon, "SportsTracker", but that whole environment has gotten a bit out of hand.. :) I'll play with this HRV4Training app, seems it works with heart rate, along with an HRV reading each morning. Seems pretty straightforward.
 

FunkyMagicUK

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Oct 26, 2018
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I was using the beta Suunto App when I had my SSWHR Baro, but because it was clunky at best, and didn't offer anywhere near what the Movescount, or Garmin Connect offered, I deleted it. I guess I could try to sync to the "real" app that the SA is based upon, "SportsTracker", but that whole environment has gotten a bit out of hand.. :) I'll play with this HRV4Training app, seems it works with heart rate, along with an HRV reading each morning. Seems pretty straightforward.
Can it read HRV from the Health Data captured by watch....reading the blurb on the App Store it seems to rely on using phone camera?
 
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oeagleo

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Can it read HRV from the Health Data captured by watch....reading the blurb on the App Store it seems to rely on using phone camera?
Actually, it will use the HRV from the watch, their solution is to do a "breathe" activity for one minute upon first waking up. However, something about the way that is used, it's not as good as the camera, there's a big explanation about it, but I didn't understand it fully. It will also take the RMSSS data from a strap, either a wrist (they recommend a Scosche), or Chest Strap, (they recommend a Polar H7). I've taken both ways, and finally have a somewhat full reading, but the jury's still out on whether it can actually replace the data I get from my Garmin Fenix 5+. Just being honest here, what I'm looking for, is the recovery time, Training stress, (HRV4Training will use the TSS score from Training Peaks), and put it all in one web based format like Movescount, or Garmin Connect. I absolutely hate having 14 different apps on the phone to see the different data, and it's darn near impossible to relate one data to another.
 

FunkyMagicUK

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Oct 26, 2018
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Yup I have a similar need.

I used to use the “you need 28hrs recovery” number from Suunto or SportsTracker or whatever as a bit of a guide as to my readiness.

I hoped the Summit feature in Strava which sort of tracks training effort could provide similar data but it doesn’t really.

I just want a “you need Xhrs before next big effort” countdown...similar to the “personal battery level” you get in some of the sleep apps.
 
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vanhalen26

macrumors newbie
Nov 14, 2018
21
3
I just run with my garmin, and still use connect and training peaks. I also wear the Apple Watch for music and cell features, but garmin in my opinion is still best for activity tracking. Sadly I got a new fenix 5s before discovering the Apple Watch. The AW is my daily wear now, so the fenix is overkill for me activity needs.
 

STevil 39

macrumors newbie
Feb 3, 2018
29
14
It would be nice if:

A) Apple built a comprehensive fitness app that would do meaningful analysis of HRV and other important load related heart rate data.

B) Apple would allow developers to fully access it's heart rate data (HRV4 Training developer told me that the camera is better for capturing data only because Apple does not allow developer apps full access to its heart rate data).

To me, sadly, it does make the Apple Watch a second rate fitness device when it captures amazing data but doesn't use that data in a meaningful way.

As it stands like many of you, I'm using multiple apps, trying to piece together the information that I'd like to have but haven't found an optimal workflow yet. (For some strange reason Strava displays my heart rate data during a workout, but doesn't import it, so that's not working for me yet).
 

oeagleo

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Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
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West Jordan, Utah
It would be nice if:

A) Apple built a comprehensive fitness app that would do meaningful analysis of HRV and other important load related heart rate data.

B) Apple would allow developers to fully access it's heart rate data (HRV4 Training developer told me that the camera is better for capturing data only because Apple does not allow developer apps full access to its heart rate data).

To me, sadly, it does make the Apple Watch a second rate fitness device when it captures amazing data but doesn't use that data in a meaningful way.

As it stands like many of you, I'm using multiple apps, trying to piece together the information that I'd like to have but haven't found an optimal workflow yet. (For some strange reason Strava displays my heart rate data during a workout, but doesn't import it, so that's not working for me yet).
The ability to keep all my information in one place, on the laptop, with one application is why I continue to use the Garmin. Not only that, but the data/metrics that the Garmin displays is much better than what is exported from the AW, but the main thing is the ability to see everything I need at once.
 

FunkyMagicUK

macrumors regular
Oct 26, 2018
116
84
Is there any way to determine Training Load, or recovery time using the R-R values in the Apple Watch environment? I've been using a Garmin Fenix 5+, and really like the idea of the Training load over the week to see if I'm overdoing it, along with the estimated recovery time for each activity. Anyone? Apps, or just through the features of the watch/app?
Using the HealthFit app, I’ve started syncing activities to RunAlyze (from in HealthFit you can manually sync all historic data and then have it automatic going forward just same as syncing to Strava etc)...

Still getting to grips with RunAlyze but it gives training load in fatigue and fitness level terms etc...plus a lot more.

You need to tag races to make some of the data more meaningful...but having worked back through a few weeks of data I’ve got a good picture now of where I’m at, and will just tag races in between regular sessions moving forwards as and when they occur.
 
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PaladinGuy

macrumors 6502a
Sep 22, 2014
558
256
I’ve been thinking about this very topic lately. The one thing I wish the Apple Watch could do is give me more actionable information and presentation of the data. Recovery info would be awesome. If it weren’t so much better as a daily watch, I’d be inclined to go back to Garmin. I just couldn’t give up all the usefulness of the Apple Watch.
 

digitalredeye

macrumors newbie
Jan 20, 2019
6
1
Virginia, USA
This topic is the same reason why I can't seem to wear the same watch more than 7 days in a row. I have the Fenix 5 and the Apple Watch Series 4 Nike+ and the main reason for switching between the two is the lack of training load / recovery info. If Apple could give us this info and place all of the reporting into a single dashboard instead of two different apps I would sell my Fenix 5 and never look back.
 

oeagleo

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
549
299
West Jordan, Utah
This topic is the same reason why I can't seem to wear the same watch more than 7 days in a row. I have the Fenix 5 and the Apple Watch Series 4 Nike+ and the main reason for switching between the two is the lack of training load / recovery info. If Apple could give us this info and place all of the reporting into a single dashboard instead of two different apps I would sell my Fenix 5 and never look back.
Yeah, well it makes me feel good that I'm not alone in this quandary! Even if someone could put together a website that could use the data in the file that the AW generates, and could use it that would be cool. MovesCount (Suunto's companion website) can generate Training Effect, and EPOC from the data, but still no recovery time. Even in the watch like Garmin does would be good.
 

JoeriB

macrumors newbie
Jun 14, 2019
3
0
Hi all, does any of you are familiar with the Fjuul app? it's IOS app (google: Fjuul) which can run on your phone and watch which provides similar metrics as Garmin. They also use the firstbeat algorithms. Would any of you be able to try that? I'm between an AW and Garmin. But if this Fjuul app works and it provides the metrics would be an advantage over Garmin
 

oeagleo

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Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
549
299
West Jordan, Utah
Hi all, does any of you are familiar with the Fjuul app? it's IOS app (google: Fjuul) which can run on your phone and watch which provides similar metrics as Garmin. They also use the firstbeat algorithms. Would any of you be able to try that? I'm between an AW and Garmin. But if this Fjuul app works and it provides the metrics would be an advantage over Garmin
I tried it, and to actually get the Firstbeat info, you have to subscribe for like $4.99 a month. That, and the fact that you have to use the Fjuul app for activities for it to "register" the training load, etc, but for some reason the activity didn't count toward my monthly challenge/goal, I gave it up. I think it was like $39 a year, but still, for me, I am moving back and forth between my Fenix 5+ and the AW, so it just wasn't worth it for me. I also found it somewhat confusing, or in my opinion, not "user friendly". You can get a month of "free" premium if you sign up, so why not give it a go for free, and see if it suits your purpose?
 

JoeriB

macrumors newbie
Jun 14, 2019
3
0
OK thanks, I'm going to wait until black friday this year, then the AW5 will be out - possibly who knows a Fenix 6. And by then there should also be some good deals on the Fenix 5 plus. Going to decide at that time...
 

oeagleo

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Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
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West Jordan, Utah
OK thanks, I'm going to wait until black friday this year, then the AW5 will be out - possibly who knows a Fenix 6. And by then there should also be some good deals on the Fenix 5 plus. Going to decide at that time...
Yes, the "free" time period is good, and the use that I have for the FB technology/stats may not be as you would use them, I'm a 71 year old man, trying to compensate for a lifetime of sedentary jobs, and trying to get/stay healthy. Not "training" for anything, just trying to maintain a healthy level of activity. I'm pretty sure that my Fenix 5+ is way more than I need or will ever use, but I love the data having been in computer fields for most of my career, but now I'm retired, and while no longer active in that field, my love of data and comparison of same hasn't left me. :)
 

FunkyMagicUK

macrumors regular
Oct 26, 2018
116
84
I tried it, and to actually get the Firstbeat info, you have to subscribe for like $4.99 a month. That, and the fact that you have to use the Fjuul app for activities for it to "register" the training load, etc, but for some reason the activity didn't count toward my monthly challenge/goal, I gave it up. I think it was like $39 a year, but still, for me, I am moving back and forth between my Fenix 5+ and the AW, so it just wasn't worth it for me. I also found it somewhat confusing, or in my opinion, not "user friendly". You can get a month of "free" premium if you sign up, so why not give it a go for free, and see if it suits your purpose?
I tried with the free trial and found it to be useless.

The implication is that you wear your watch and moving around (like “exercise minutes”) gets picked up and analysed in terms of First Beat recovery metrics etc.

But...unless you use the Fjuul app on the watch (or phone) to track activities, which is nowhere close having the features and customisable display of my preferred running app, no activities do actually get picked up, so it seems pretty pointless.

I don’t know why there’s not an app out there that can simply interrogate the Apple Health system for workouts and provide recovery data and all the other detailed fitness metrics that you can derive.

I use HealthFit to sync activities to Runalyze which gives some data, and I use HRV4Training which can pull data from Strava, but for it to be useful you have to run the app EVERY day (to pick up yesterdays Strava) and waste time doing a HRV measurement via the phone camera (gives more detail than watch).

I want an app that takes feed of activities like Runalyze does, but is an app that sits on the phone (like HRV4Training), or at least is easy to browse on the phone...
 
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oeagleo

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Feb 5, 2016
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West Jordan, Utah
I tried with the free trial and found it to be useless.

The implication is that you wear your watch and moving around (like “exercise minutes”) gets picked up and analysed in terms of First Beat recovery metrics etc.

But...unless you use the Fjuul app on the watch (or phone) to track activities, which is nowhere close having the features and customisable display of my preferred running app, no activities do actually get picked up, so it seems pretty pointless.

I don’t know why there’s not an app out there that can simply interrogate the Apple Health system for workouts and provide recovery data and all the other detailed fitness metrics that you can derive.

I use HealthFit to sync activities to Runalyze which gives some data, and I use HRV4Training which can pull data from Strava, but for it to be useful you have to run the app EVERY day (to pick up yesterdays Strava) and waste time doing a HRV measurement via the phone camera (gives more detail than watch).

I want an app that takes feed of activities like Runalyze does, but is an app that sits on the phone (like HRV4Training), or at least is easy to browse on the phone...
Therein lies the problem, and to date, the only app that I've found that will do this, along with the FirstBeat datastream is Garmin Connect... :)
That's why I keep switching back and forth, I love the AW, series 4, I really do, but I also as stated above, absolutely thrive on the data, comparisons, etc, along with using the training load to gauge how hard I've worked. Trust me, there's been times when I thought I was doing fine, and wound up with a 3.8+ TL, and times when I was puffing like a freight train for a 2.3 TL. I also enjoy the recovery times also used in conjunction with the TL to see overall effect. I export the GC material into Runanalyze, which pulls even the recovery, and training load into it's spreadsheet like interface. It's a great (FREE) app/website, and that's my main one I use. It will also import "most" of the data from the AW, so I can use it to compare the different activities, and calorie counts.
 

JoeriB

macrumors newbie
Jun 14, 2019
3
0
Thanks for the feedback on Fjuul, that's no go then... I wonder how hard it would be to take the firstbeat API's and create an IOS app out of it which would just provide those metrics based on the training you did. I raised the same question in a DC Rainmaker post and he said it would be totally possible, however you need programming skills and the firstbeat API for the metrics. But again, how difficult can it be?

For now I use the Elevate Strava chrome plugin (previously Stravistix), but only use it on my laptop, not sure it works on mobile devices through the Chrome plugin.
 

richxps

macrumors 65816
Jun 9, 2008
1,436
121
Has anyone found a solution yet ? I almost tried out the whoop band which has all this data and more but when I seen 30 bucks a month for it I passed. So far the Apple Watch does it all I just need that recovery and stress metric
 

oeagleo

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Original poster
Feb 5, 2016
549
299
West Jordan, Utah
Has anyone found a solution yet ? I almost tried out the whoop band which has all this data and more but when I seen 30 bucks a month for it I passed. So far the Apple Watch does it all I just need that recovery and stress metric
No, I have tried just about every Apple watch app, and have come close, but nothing to match the Garmin data. I believe the reason is that the Recovery, and Stress metrics are exclusively Firstbeat Technologies methods, and require a fairly hefty payment to use them.
However, I have found a decent (for me) solution, the website "Runalyze" calculates Chronic, and Acute training load data, and generates an "Easy TRIMP" (Training Impact) status that gives the Training Impact (virtually the same as Training load, but uses the Training Peaks system) to stay below to remain in an "equal" status, or that status where you have no recovery days required to bring your body back to it's normal state. Many other things about the program are very good too, and if you import Garmin data it WILL show training load, and recovery time.
Another good program, although subscription, is FITIV, a very comprehensive, "All in one" program for all of your Health and exercise data.
 

Significant1

macrumors 6502a
Dec 20, 2014
707
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With Stryd you get RSS (Run stress score) and RSB (Run stress balance). It also compute your CP (Critical Power) and has race prediction.

Disadvantage is, that it is not cheap (4x more expensive than Garmins running pod) and only geared toward running. But it really makes the Apple Watch a much better running watch.

Advantage is also that it works with lots of devices and even more Garmin models than Garmin's own running pods.