Transitioning away from Apple stuff

[casperes1996]

You are absolutely correct that by design Linux is much more similar to macOS that Windows, so yeah, if you are skilled in those areas on macOS you will have no problem dealing with Linux. But the thing is, on macOS you generally don't ever need to do any of these low level stuff like accessing unix folders or changing config files. You can use it for any task without ever knowing about the terminal, and it'a similar story with Windows (unless you break something). With Linux, that is sadly not my experience. Except maybe if you do mostly office work, internet etc...

I guess that's a fair point. It's kinda hard for me to speak to, since I really haven't booted up a computer in a darn long time, without also very quickly booting a Terminal. Interact with it a lot on any platform. Though I will add that the Windows Terminal, as is, is garbage. MS knows that though, and are luckily very close to releasing a new one, changing a lot of the underlying infrastructure to work more similarly to Linux as well. Thank Christ (though it still seems like it lacksa lot of Unix niceties - though that's to be expected)

 

[mlenger]

No brainer- 3

 

[InquiringMac]

Would you, dear experts, consider the System76 as a viable solution for the OP, please?

 

[casperes1996]

Would you, dear experts, consider the System76 as a viable solution for the OP, please?

I've already recommended a few Linux distributions if the choice is to move away from Apple hardware and Software.
I would prefer old Apple to new anything else personally, but I understand people thinking otherwise.

System 76 is good in that you get hardware that you know will work well with Linux, especially their Pop_OS Ubuntu derivative, but there's no real difference to it and any other PC with Linux on it

 

[appleofmyibook]

If cost is the reason over form, function or actually wanting to do more, then I would do my best to stay with Apple.

I have been in your position twice - with Android - I switched from iPhone to a Note a couple of years ago, and I also switched to Lenovo. There are so many factors to consider, but long story short, it cost me more money moving away from Apple.

With Apple, you can almost be certain that the vast majority of devices, while expensive out of the gate will last a lot longer and have a much lower failure rate (looking at any company statistics will show you that comparably, Apple devices are much less likely to fail and will out last a PC by years). Same with iPhone. Spreading out the cost over a number of years, you will either come up around a similar price per year, or even a better price with Apple. And if you love Apple, then it’s worth it. I had to switch back from Android after 4 months. Specs for spec, it should have completely outperformed my iPhone but being in email and then going to the photos app to load them became choppy and when I needed to do something quick, it just lagged. Lagging got worse until I eventually couldn’t stand it and ended up with an iPhone.

A lot of people will disagree with me, but unless you are moving to Android or PC because you LOVE something that they do that Apple doesn’t, you will be miserable.

The reason why I’m such a hardcore Apple fan now is because of what happened to me when I was away from Apple for a while. Haters will tell you we are restricted and we can’t customise our home screen. I would gladly give that up knowing that whatever time of day I pick up my phone or computer, I can rely on it to do the tasks without breaking a sweat. This coupled with the continuity, design and function of Apple products is just something that’s hard to live without now.

 

[09872738]

Spreading out the cost over a number of years, you will either come up around a similar price per year, or even a better price with Apple.

Up until 2015 I agreed with you. In 2019 they charge you north of 800 bucks for a mere TB SSD. They went from premium to absolutely bonkers.

And if you love Apple, then it’s worth it.

I really like macOS and the speed of iOS. Xcode and Swift...
Apple itself... there's nothing to like any more. They rip their customers off while displaying maximum hypocrisy, they became the disgusting behemoth they mocked in their famous "1984" ad back in the day.

 

[QCassidy352]

If cost is the reason over form, function or actually wanting to do more, then I would do my best to stay with Apple.

I agree with this, and I would add that you can remain in the Apple ecosystem at a huge discount if you are willing to wait for sales, buy refurb or used, and (most of all) be willing to buy the previous model.

Although I, as much as anyone, get lured by whatever the latest is, you’ll almost always get very close to the same experience as the current model if you go one or two generations back, and you’ll save a ton.

Not that everyone has to remain in the Apple ecosystem, but if you really want to, there’s a way to do it that doesn’t cost an arm and a leg.

 

[Ruggy]

I get it I really do. But fortunately, I still have a really good Windows machine to remind me what it's like and I've used Linux enough to have experienced all the driver issues to know it's not for me.

I'm sure Linux is fine for those that want to make the effort, but it's very much still a 'work it out for yourself' operating system and it's very rough and at least 20 years behind what MacOS can do.

It really boils down to how much certain things like sound quality matter to you.

If you want a laptop then try to find one that has as good sound quality as a Macbook, or as nice a screen, or doesn't have a fan whirring away in the background all the time, or doesn't get really hot.

If you want to have a machine of a similar quality then you are going to be looking at similar money but it still won't have a trackpad that works as well. I've never seen one on any Windows machine.
For similar money you will probably get a less solid machine. Dell for example make beautiful machines but they are all plastic and what happens when they go wrong? They give pretty good service but it isn't as good as Apple.

I think Asus make the best Windows machines myself- they are beautiful and well made, but I've still had a lot of driver issues with Asus machines and power supply failure.

Windows machines tend to slow to a crawl over time and you have to do work on them to keep them going, clean out the registry, all the .tmp files and broken links. I reckon I do more housework on the Windows machine per month than I do on the Macs in more than a year and that's not including updating the AV.

Don't even start on security. You can basically over-write any file on Windows even by accident.

Updates are still a huge nightmare and if you haven't automatically updated for a while then you can have a real shock at how many hours it takes before you can use your computer. And updates themselves can really mess up your machine.

Then there are little things like malware on emails or links that MacOS is immune to.You forget how big a thing that can be.

And don't forget to factor in OS costs. Windows has only changed 3 or 4 times since XP came in but each time you upgrade you spend about $120.

Apple updates pretty much every year and if you can reasonably get 7 years out of a machine, that that's over $800 of upgrades over the life of the machine and that's not including upgrades to things like Pages.

But then, Windows 10 is at about the same level of sophistication as Tiger.

Most of what you need to do comes with the machine. It's rare you have to buy everything extra and though we moan sometimes, things work pretty well.

Also, when you do need something it's surprisingly cheap compared to the Windows counterparts and because it's harder to make bad software run at all under Mac OS, it'll tend to work pretty well.

Finally, the Macs are pretty efficient and light on resources so an older, lower spec machine will run just as well as something seemingly much more powerful under Windows. You may well be astonished at how slowly a top spec windows machine does things although they do boot up really snappily these days.

The only real snag is if you want to play games and then you are badly served for choice on Apple machines.

 

[casperes1996]

I'm sure Linux is fine for those that want to make the effort, but it's very much still a 'work it out for yourself' operating system and it's very rough and at least 20 years behind what MacOS can do.

20 years behind macOS? I'd really like some elaborating arguments on that.
I love macOS. macOS will always be my platform of choice. But I'd argue that Linux is the fastest moving operating system there is. The UX part heavily depends on the DE and distort, but Linux itself moves fast. And I'd even say that Gnome based DEs are pretty darn far ahead too.

 

[09872738]

And I'd even say that Gnome based DEs are pretty darn far ahead too.

I have to disagree. KDE is hands down vastly superior to Gnome. If you ever had the displeasure to have to program with Gtk as opposed to Qt you quickly start to see why that is.

Gnome is an unconfigurable mess - which is why there are so many derivatives (Cinnamon, Mate, etc), all of which have one thing in common: They are vastly inferior to KDE

 

[casperes1996]

I have to disagree. KDE is hands down vastly superior to Gnome. If you ever had the displeasure to have to program with Gtk as opposed to Qt you quickly start to see why that is.

GTK vs Qt is an entirely different, although admittedly linked, debate. To be honest I wouldn't choose either if I had the choice. Optimally I'd prefer AppKit/UIKit, and hell, even .NET as much as I hate a lot of it.
But I like Gnome a lot as a DE. It's not as endlessly configurable as KDE, no... But it's nice out of the box, whereas KDE takes 348 hours of customisation to make about as nice to use.

Gnome is an unconfigurable mess - which is why there are so many derivatives (Cinnamon, Mate, etc), all of which have one thing in common: They are vastly inferior to KDE

Another way of looking at it, is that the Gnome based is seen as a great starting point.

Mate especially is a great example of an extremely high quality derivative, with the desktop switcher allowing quick theming to either a Unity style, Mac style, Windows style, classic Gnome style, modern Gnome style or whatever else you want.
Plus Mate has a great universal menu and HUD like the Mac, and it works for both GTK and Qt based apps; Something I've still not seen a KDE extension do. - Or a pure Gnome extension do well for that matter. Only Mate seems to get this bang-on. Unity did it well too, but that's a bit of a dead fish now.

 

[MBAir2010]

All my, well both mini and Tv 2gen are on craigslist and will be boxed up next monday if they don't sell by then.
My new dell xps exceeded my expectations and windows can be controlled much better than mojave.
the fire stick is much better as well, without the 5 second pause while streaming HBO every 28 minutes.
i will keep the air only for photoshop and snow leopard since the laptop is beat up and might purchase a new set a pentalobe screws because the original ones wont work, how pathetic!
i downloaded a couple of Microsoft apps without having an account or logging in including itones which i just deleted today.

 

[Williesleg]

I spent many years living/working happily within Apple's famed "walled garden," but I'm starting to realize that I simply can't afford new Apple stuff going forward. I've made some moves out of Apple-Land via a cheap Chromebook and Android phone, both of which serve my purposes well (but perhaps not as enjoyably as the Mac OS experience). My 2014 Macbook Air needs a new battery (and may have already sustained a bit of battery-related internal damage -- let's hope not), while my 2013 Mini keeps chugging along for now. But these products won't last forever, so I'm clearly coming to a crossroads. Do I:

1. Go ahead and make a full transition into an open-ended, non-Apple environment?
2. Keep patching up the Mini and the Air as long as I can afford to do so, and continue to rely primarily on an Apple environment?
3. Buy used Apple products at affordable prices as needed and maintain relations between the Mac hardware/software and a larger non-Apple landscape?

Any opinions or anecdotes welcome.

I'd go ahead and rip the band-aid off altogether. Ubuntu Desktop is really good. Open source is fantastic, there's a ton of stuff out there and it's high quality now. The new AMD chips (due in July) blow away anything Intel has, and once you get off Apple you can buy anything you want. Check out Linus Tech Tips on Youtube, he does a great job talking hardware. Even though he likes Windows
Loving my Android Pixel 3, my Ubuntu 19.04 desktop, and Plex running in docker on my NAS server. And I can VNC into my old Mac Mini whenever I want to grab old files.

Oh, BTW, you can download Ubuntu Desktop, put it on a flash drive, boot off it ("live CD") and take it for a test spin, don't have to wipe out anything on your mac.
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First off, I really think the so-called "Walled Garden" is a myth detrimental to everybody. There may be some truth to it with the more appliance like products, but the Mac specifically at least is more open than Windows is. Maybe not on the hardware side of things, but macOS itself is, at least in its current incarnation, a fairly open system that allows anybody with sudo privileges fairly full access, and as per its Unix roots works a lot better with most open source projects than Windows does. You even have the option of an Xorg window server with XQuartz.

With that out of the way, I'd personally say option 3. I would personally way rather have a used and older Mac than a brand new Windows box. Though if I were to recommend something outside of the Apple ecosystem, I would recommend a Linux system with Mate, Gnome or Pantheon as the desktop. I'm personally not a big fan of KDE. If you really prefer Qt based environments though, my personal preference would be with Deepin Desktop (not the Deepin distro though) or perhaps when it matures (if it ever will) Unity 8.

Anyways, going away from Linux thoughts again, I personally really dislike the entire Windows experience. It is a great OS for gaming, but personal opinion, little else. A hackintosh, an older, used Mac, Linux or BSD; All better options than Windows in my books.

Plus, Macs aren't that much more expensive for comparable hardware, and in some cases actually cheaper. When the original 5K iMac came out, a comparable PC, at least in one instance, came out as $300 more expensive. That is of course with a 5K display which was the bulk of the cost.

Same goes for phones; There are plenty of Android phones as expensive or more expensive than any iPhone.

If the budget is extremely limite and you want a new laptop however, the best advice I can give is a Chuwi with Lubuntu - A super light OS for a very underwhelming PC performance wise, but with a good screen - and with the OS being so light, it'll at least seem fine for a lot of day to day tasks, whilst still offering a lot more flexibility than what Chromebooks offer out of the gate.

Nice try, that's a lot of Linux choice!
I'd personally stick Ubuntu 19.04 right out of the box, it's fantastic! No need to get so deep into the minutiae just like there's no need to get so deep into OSX. Just load it up and enjoy! Better yet, go over to Best Buy, get pretty much any of the returned machines on clearance, and load it up. Easy peasy, no need to overthink it. Got me an old Dell i5 desktop for $197, runs rings around my Mini.
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You can always build your own PC and hunt for parts on eBay. I’d never buy used ssd or hdd’s but you can save on video cards and other components.

Hell, I bought an Nvidia I’ve been using in my MacPro for years. And I just saved $250 on a GTX 1070 for my pc build. You have to shop smart, look at seller feedback, check it wasn’t abused in cryptomining but it can be worth it.
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I’d do that myself, but some of my software requires Mojave, and the old hardware can’t always run it unless you use an unsupported hack. Anyway I’m not certain legacy hardware will have much life left in it once all of the new hardware gets the T2 chip AND everything moves to ARM chips but who knows when that will happen.

Building a new PC is effortless now. Sites like https://pcpartpicker.com/list/ do all the heavy lifting.

 

[smirking]

Do whatever you feel is best for your use. And really, you don't need to announce it.

I think this guy was actually genuinely asking for some advice instead of the typical chest beating "So long U sukkkas, I is woke now" post.
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Any opinions or anecdotes welcome.

I'm a developer and I do my work on a 2018 MBP, but I setup an old 2009 MBP as a fallback machine in case my main laptop gets abducted by aliens. That old 2009 equipped with an SSD is surprisingly usable for my purposes. If I didn't depend on my computer to make my living, I could see myself settling for that 2009 until it failed to turn on.

I'm assuming your needs are way less demanding than mine so your 2013 Mac Mini might work just fine for many more years and we have no idea what the computing landscape will look like by the time you need a new computer. I don't think the coming decade is going to be as stable as the previous one. You might simply be making a premature switch so you'll need to make yet another switch in 5 years so hold off until it becomes an issue.

If you go back to the early 2000's, people were buying new computers every 2 to 3 years. Ports and storage media were changing all the time. Go back a few more years and Mac vs PC wasn't even the choice we had to make. It was Mac, PC, Amiga, Atari ST, or maybe a Unix terminal?

I don't think it's ever going to be that wild again. I just mean to underscore that I wouldn't be eager to rush into making a change just so I could have peace of mind. It might end up that none of us are going to have peace of mind the way we got used to.