Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
TSMC Now Shipping A-Series Processors to Apple for Future iOS Devices
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OK. I'll hope that TSMC can actually deliver volume and quality. I'm skeptical. Why? The same movie has already run with Apple switching part orders from Samsung to LG and Sharp for screens and from Samsung to various suppliers for SSDs. Inevitably, the alternatives don't seem to be "the good one" as evidenced in various threads with people "hoping to get the Samsung <screen or SSD>" when swapping out an Apple device. I rarely see people "hoping to get the LG one" or "hoping to get the Sharp one". It seems to almost always be "hoping to get the Samsung one".
Is TSMC able to build A processors as good as Samsung? Or is TSMC a variant of the LG and Sharp alternatives for parts again? We'll see soon enough.
With the Screen's & SSD's etc, they were not manufacturing issues but design problems from the looks of things.
The difference with the processors here is, Apple has designed them. Meaning the quality of the design across all processors will be same. Weather there will be difference from processor to processor, will come down to quality control.
ahhhh the irony, guess you never saw the I'm and Mac, I'm a PC ads ?
The Samsung ads are far more civil compared to what Microsoft got form Apple.
Apple is just coping it for a change.
TSMC is considered one of the best, if not the best, foundries outside of Intel's foundries. I wouldn't worry about the quality. The processors will be designed by Apple / ARM; the only thing that TSMC will affect my be the yields of the lots and for the end user, you'll never know what it is. If the processors don't work, that's a problem of the design or the test suite, not the foundry.
That's is pretty creepy what you have said .. 1) You do understand people like a choice in the products they use? 2) Regardless of how much you hate Samsung, they produce amazing TVs etc.
You said in your other comment, that people call you stupid because you have an iPhone? Well . just ignore it, and get better friends :/
It's interesting that they mention it as being a win-win for Apple and TSMC but neglect to mention that this is a pretty big blow against Samsung.
Looks like some fact checking is in order. A lot of misinformation in your post.
Actually it's completely the other way around. LG was the incumbent supplier of display for Apple for many of their products. Apple actually switched from going LG-exclusive to adding Samsung, Sharp and Japan Displays to iPads and iPhones. For laptops and iMacs, LG has been a long time supplier but Samsung has been one too for years.
Thus it's not the same movie at all, it's the opposite. Samsung was a later addition, not the other way around.
Except screen and SSD aren't processors and even those two aren't the same.
The problem with the screen was that LG displays for rMBPs had the retention issue but if you read the forums, many actually prefer the LG display over the Samsung other than the retention issue, which has gotten better since.
The SSD on the other hand is where Samsung has a clear technical advantage because their controller simply performs better.
Neither is comparable to a Apple processor getting fabricated.
TSMC is the biggest independent fab in the world by far. Their volume dwarves Samsung who was ranked about 5th last year. It's amazing how much of a meme "Samsung makes all the parts for Apple" has become. Even Samsung uses TSMC parts over their own. (Yes the reason is complicated but that's still the fact)
IBM's POWER8 is designed all over the place; Germany, India, Israel and the US.
Famously the Core architecture was designed by Intel in Haifa, Israel. Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge are more current designs designed in Israel.
STMicroelectronics is a European company that designs a lot of microelectronics. As is Infineon and Ericsson.
Japanese and Taiwanese companies like Sony, Toshiba, Canon, Fujitsu, MediaTek all have ARM licenses, and Fujitsu is even designing their own mainframe architecture.
China is becoming larger and larger in designing high end microelectronics. Allwinner, RockChip, C*Core, Longsson, Huawei, all have broad licenses for ARM, MIPS, Sparc and even Power.
The Pentium-M (which ultimately lead to the core CPU's) was designed by the Intel design team in Haifa, Israel (arguably, as its technically still Intel). The Loongson CPU's are completely chinese. Other CPU's from companies such as NEC, VIA etc. do exist.
The mainstream x86 market is dominated by AMD and Intel, but beyond that specific architecture/market there are some more CPU designing companies...
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
OK. So what. End result is this: I see lots of Apple people here- among a crowd that seeks out every opportunity to bash away at Samsung- posting about "hoping to get the Samsung one". I don't see lots of posts hoping to get the LG one or the Sharp one. That's the "movie" I'm talking about. Trying to spin the order of introduction as if that has some impact on end result doesn't change the end result.
Except, I don't notice people posting "I hope I get the LG one with less retention issue". And excluding or marginalizing a flaw that bothers users doesn't make it better than the Samsung one either (just a lessening flaw). End result is still the end result. I just don't see many posting about hoping they get something other than the Samsung one in such threads. Does anyone want a "less flawed" part from someone else?
Who came first or that one of the others is "getting better" doesn't seem too relevant to how even this very biased (against Samsung) crowd views Samsung parts when it's their own Apple device being swapped out.
OK great. So, since we're all so certain that Apple should eliminate Samsung from making A processors, why doesn't the "biggest independent fab in the whole world" have the whole order? I recall in what seemed to be the height of the thermonuclear war that THAT was the rumor… that Apple was going to shift the bulk or even all A processor production to TSMC. What happened? Since, it's faded into being a split order and now it's apparently becoming that Samsung will make most and TSMC will make some. How is it that the company being "dwarved" is getting so much of the order?
I'll grant you that TSMC may indeed be a much bigger producer of these kinds of chips. So what's the problem? Don't they want more of Apple's money than a partial order? I would think given the collective hatred of Samsung here and perceived hatred of Samsung by Apple Inc, that the time for TSMC to strike would have already happened… that TSMC could have seen a great opportunity and simply asked for the whole order to put one over on their smaller competitor when Apple is (apparently) most motivated to do that very thing. So why does the dreaded Samsung get so much of this order?
Let me guess: transition or not putting all eggs in one basket, blah, blah, blah. OR- just as speculatively- maybe TSMC just has volume and/or quality issues that are not as much of a problem for the smaller competitor. I don't know… but you don't either. I'm simply wondering if post-launch will once again have lots of threads where returned 6s have owners "hoping I get the Samsung one".
Actually that's the problem. Reportedly TSMC is driving a hard bargain with Apple and demands higher pricing while rejecting assigning exclusive capacity for Apple. Samsung on the other hand is trying much harder but Apple is reluctant for obvious reasons.
TSMC makes so many major items from different clients, Qualcomm processors and modem chips used everywhere, nVidia and AMD graphic chips, processors for PS4 and Xbox One, and so on.
Samsung has currently zero large external client outside Apple.
You didn't mention the biggest factor. Apple's chip team has been working with Samsung for a long time and familiar with the process.
A chip design is very dependent on the process being used. You have to optimize for the specific fab or you won't get the proper performance.
This is why it makes so much sense that Apple's next rumored choice would be Globalfoundries. Who is more desperate for business than TSMC and shares the same process as Samsung.
It sounds like all my explanations didn't make any effect on your understanding. You're trying too hard to make the false comparison into a legitimate one. As I've explained above, display, SSD and processor are three very different items with different associated problems.
There's actually one very popular chip manufactured by both TSMC and Samsung, and I don't see anyone returning products containing that item to "Get the Samsung one". I won't tell you which one, can you guess?
But if they did Apple would have to stop making the iPhone, and iPad, and halt production of iMacs and Macbooks also.
Perhaps you want Apple to crash and not supply products to consumers do you?
Not necessarily.
I'd agree if someone wanted to see Samsung fail strictly because they're an Apple competitor, but you can't just assume that's the reason people want to see Samsung fail.
Samsung has been incredibly successful in the last few years, especially with their Android devices. So much that they're pretty much dominating the Android market and other Android OEMs are struggling to even turn a profit. It's just natural for those other OEMs to ask themselves "What did Samsung do right that we didn't?", and basically take inspiration from Samsung's success.
Now Samsung's approach has been highly controversial in many aspects, and pretty much all they do differently is the result of a specific mentality, strategy and business culture that many consider toxic for the entire industry.
Copying Apple's business is hard for the struggling Android OEMs. They won't become a vertically integrated company with their own OS and retail stores overnight. But copying Samsung's approach is relatively easy, and that's what many OEMs could do if they're threatened by bankruptcy. And that is what I'd be afraid of is Samsung continues gaining success, and it has almost nothing to do with the Apple vs Samsung competition. I'd be afraid that the majority of the industry borrows the Samsung approach, and that you'd have pretty much no option between the Apple and Samsung mentalities. That would be even more problematic given that Apple's mentality is pretty controversial as well.
If you want an analogy, imagine a thief gets caught and prisoned. Even if the victim doesn't get satisfaction due to the feeling of revenge, they could still feel good about the fact other potential thieves are less likely to do the same since the message being sent is that you can't just get away easily with a crime like that. See what I mean? There's more to it than a purely emotional feeling of victory or revenge. There could also be a rational reason for justice to be served for the sake of society or an industry as a whole.
(Note that I'm not saying Samsung are the equivalent of thieves, it's only an analogy to illustrate my point that you may want to see someone/something fail for rational reasons)
tl;dr: Someone's or something's failure may actually benefit the industry or society. It's not necessarily only for an irrational feeling of victory/revenge.
Last edited:
Comes in, looks around, sees the usual Samsung must collapse and fail comments, made on devices using Samsung components by people who are utterly blind and naive to just how much of iOS devices success is down to Samsung, gets sunglasses (too nice a day to get my coat) and leaves..
Comes in, looks around, sees the usual misconception about Samsung responsible for the majority of iOS components, gets sunglasses and leaves with a drink in hand.
Here's a simple fun fact. There are more TSMC-made components in this iPhone 5s teardown from iFixit than Samsung components. There's literally a single Samsung component in that particular iPhone 5s.
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+5s+Teardown/17383
But it's been my experience at Macrumors that most of those who preach objectiveness and facts while criticizing others for bias and naivety are usually the ones who accept "the facts" only when those facts make Apple look bad.
I'd add to that that there's no evidence that Apple could not make functionally identical devices without Samsung's help.
Since Samsung are the manufacturers, not designers, of those components, it's very possible (and likely) that Apple could ask for those same components to be manufactured by someone else.
Perhaps that move would reduce Apple's margin because of higher manufacturing costs. Perhaps a lower production capacity would force Apple to make deals with multiple manufacturers and deal with more complicated logistics. But there's no evidence that it would impact consumers at all in the end.
That aspect pretty much invalidates that classic "You can't want to see Samsung fail because Apple needs them" logic, which entirely relies on an unproven premise.
HobeSoundDarryl
macrumors G5
What is that single part from Samsung? How much of a role does it play in iPhone 5s functionality?
Of course they could… but why don't they? Maybe- as you suggest- it could be that Samsung can hit the quality and volume Apple seeks at the best price? Or maybe- as others have said- it's the familiarity of Apple working with Samsung for so long. Or maybe Samsung just does it very well and Apple wants to deliver something that works very well.
And I don't think anyone is saying Apple is doomed if they stopped working with Samsung. I think what people- including myself- are saying is that if they stopped working with them TODAY, there would be a lot of pain. Apple can work to fade the relationship with Samsung and maybe eventually reach a point where it's completely severed. But I bet it won't happen. While I know the mainstream sentiment here is to hate them, they make a LOT of great stuff. And some of what they make is what underpins what makes Apple tech so great. Could someone else do the job just as well? Probably… in time. But between now and then the consumer in me would rather "get the good one" than be the beta tester of other hardware partners.
Maybe this TSMC relationship is THE path away from Samsung for future A processor production. But they're not ready for the whole order yet and I wonder if they'll ever get the whole order.
Bottom line: I'd like to buy Apple stuff that just works. If it's got Samsung parts inside that make it "just work" that's fine by me. I'll leave the hate or love between Apple & Samsung to Apple & Samsung. If Apple can hate them enough to replace them, fine. However, if Apple doesn't hate them that much, then who are we to sling "die Samsung die" and similar?
Last edited:
The single part is the A7 chip, designed by Apple, fabbed by Samsung. If Samsung is just a fab who manufactures the design of Apple's chip team, why would you care who makes it?
What makes you think Samsung is the only one who makes processors? Why is Samsung using TSMC chips? How come literally no one is using Samsung for their processors if Samsung was so great? The answer is complicated and I've explained many times why it isn't anything like the display or the SSD situations. Apparently none of those explanations were read.
2028 was the date I saw for that last of the classical cmos chip (2nm) to be released, (Last I saw, 1nm was pretty much the minimum size for a transistor gate) but with Intel et al slipping up to a year on 14nm, it's likely a bit longer. Figure 20 years... 2034, before we need to worry about a fully up to speed Quantum IC.