TUAW's article against the RMBP

leenak

macrumors 68020
Mar 10, 2011
2,412
50
It is the same old argument. Obviously people are buying them like hotcakes though. Apple seems to be winning the argument, so far.
 

Chupa Chupa

macrumors G5
Jul 16, 2002
14,834
7,394
From a geek and tinkerer's perspective I agree 100%. But it's kind of like complaining about the rain -- nothing you can do about it. Ever since the first iPod Apple has slowly started making products that are less and less user upgradable or serviceable. Yes, it's a sad day in that respect -- I can say I learned a lot by taking apart my Macs.

Despite that I'm going to enjoy my RMBP and not wring my hands. Tempus Fugit.
 

darwinian

macrumors 6502a
Jan 4, 2008
600
1
In R4, more or less
Many have noted this in recent days (and beyond), but there is a distinct advantage Apple gains from engineering their products beyond standards. Standards such as accepting 2.5" SATA drives and DIMMs of a certain size and pin configuration represent constraints on how a product can be engineered. I'm a huge fan of the unibody construction and all of the computer engineering that was required to make is such a strong, relatively lightweight, and functional unit. In the 4+ years of unibody, I believe Apple really did asymptotically approach the bound of being able to engineer within those and other restrictions.

So while many see this as backward, I see this as an opportunity to create a new industry of manufacturing aftermarket solutions to making certain aspects of this computer upgradeable. For one, the company that quickly and efficiently figures out the SSD situation will have a great jump on that particular market. Regarding other storage solutions, the race should now be on for Thunderbolt. I suspect device manufacturers who have been slow or hesitant to enter this market will start paying more attention (for many "peripheral" reasons -oh, ho, ho).

Anyway, I bought into this new laptop. The paradigm shift has occurred away from tinkering. More on this later. Meeting now.
 

MacBird

macrumors 6502a
Apr 1, 2010
767
274
I think it is a trend that started with iPhone and iPad and most people will get used to it. After all, hardly anyone complains about not being able to upgrade the CPU in laptops, either.
 
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JohnDoe98

macrumors 68020
May 1, 2009
2,488
99
It's sad that the review was written from the perspective of a poorly informed critic. Had he addressed the reasons why the RAM is soldered and the batteries glued, maybe then it would make the review interesting.

There are performance reasons for abandoning the "upgradable" model. As Apple clearly indicated in its Keynote, legacy tech is not going to be in this machine. Glueing the batteries helps to keep it secure and lock it in place so there is no movement whatsoever when you transport the devices. That helps preserve the batteries against the most common problem, fastener puncturing.

Soldered RAM helps increase power efficiency, which vastly improves standby performance, which is now very relevant with the new ML power nap feature. It also helps to preserve battery cycles over the course of the life of the Laptop.

As far as "proprietary" SSDs. The MBA has the same, yet we don't see any failure of OWC or other third parties from supplying those parts, so even that is a silly complaint to raise. It's simply another cheap talking point.
 

Jazwire

macrumors 6502a
Jun 20, 2009
896
117
127.0.0.1
The only thing that really bothers me is the battery being glued to trackpad.

Ok the ram soldered sucks, but why glue the battery?

Bad battery = New Laptop?
 

JohnDoe98

macrumors 68020
May 1, 2009
2,488
99
The only thing that really bothers me is the battery being glued to trackpad.

Ok the ram soldered sucks, but why glue the battery?

Bad battery = New Laptop?
What's the single most common reason for batteries going bad? What relevance does glueing have towards mitigating that?

Additionally, I'll take soldered RAM over socketed RAM any day. Socketed RAM is extremely power inefficient, which translates to performance loss. So no, Socketed RAM sucks.
 

omgitswes

Guest
Apr 23, 2012
79
0
What I don't understand is people who openly hate the fact that they did this and still go out to buy one.

What advantages are there to make the machine upgradable? I know what it is from a business point. Later on in the year they're going to release a newer one and want you to buy that.

But honestly the only thing that turned me off from buying this is the 256gb HDD. The base model is stretching my budget as it is, but just 256gb turned me off completely.
 

mleary

macrumors regular
Sep 13, 2006
145
0
Additionally, I'll take soldered RAM over socketed RAM any day. Socketed RAM is extremely power inefficient, which translates to performance loss. So no, Socketed RAM sucks.
Source? I could see a slight increase in efficiency with direct connections but it seems like it would be pretty negligible.
 

pgiguere1

macrumors 68020
May 28, 2009
2,157
1,082
Montreal, Canada
He says the 200$ RAM upgrade is overpriced and links to the Crucial website saying it's "85$ on the open market".

If you follow the link and look at their 2x8GB DDR3-1600 memory kits, you will see that all they offer is desktop memory for 200$ that isn't even DDR3L. Since laptop and low-voltage RAM are typically more expensive, it makes the 200$ Apple upgrade look not that bad.
 

minnus

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2011
347
0
Soldered RAM helps increase power efficiency, which vastly improves standby performance, which is now very relevant with the new ML power nap feature. It also helps to preserve battery cycles over the course of the life of the Laptop.
Vastly? Really? Such strong statements need to be accompanied by citations. In standby mode, a little bit of power is required to keep the volatile memory alive. Looking at the 'specs' from previous 'unsoldered' models, they have the same 30 day standby time estimate. That is also with a smaller battery.

Shouldn't the Retina tout something along the lines of - 45 to 60 day standby time to qualify as 'vastly improves'?
 

JohnDoe98

macrumors 68020
May 1, 2009
2,488
99
Source? I could see a slight increase in efficiency with direct connections but it seems like it would be pretty negligible.
Negligible if measured at any one moment sure, but over the course of prolonged standby times the extra microvolts required by the pin sockets will incrementally leach the battery source to a greater extent than the soldered RAM. So when you turn it back-on you will have less battery left, which does decrease immediate performance upon waking the computer up. Of course you could just charge it, but that burns through your battery cycles over time.

Look, I don't have a source, but it would be nice to run an empirical test. Take two systems that are the same except for the soldered RAM and socketed RAM and leave them in standby mode for a couple of days, like a weekend, then measure the battery drain. I'd wager money there will be significantly more drain in the socketed machine.

Now, standby might not have been much of a consideration in the past, but as I mentioned, with Power Nap in ML, your computer is going to be doing a heck of a lot more behind the scenes, using up far more battery when sleeping. You might not mind wasting microvolts, but we are entering times where these microvolts do count.
 

VacantPsalm

macrumors member
Sep 21, 2010
85
0
The only thing I'm sad about is them killing off the 17 inch. RMBA being able to go up to 1920x1200 just proves that if a 17" got this you would have insane screen real-estate.

Storage is pretty much the only thing I've ever touched on my laptops. (minus the DVD drive, to replace it with an HD caddy.) Locked in hardware doesn't change my life at all.
 

JohnDoe98

macrumors 68020
May 1, 2009
2,488
99
Vastly? Really? Such strong statements need to be accompanied by citations.
That's a fair request, sadly I don't have any to provide. I'm looking at this from a theoretical point of view. Maybe in practice it wouldn't matter. But just because no one has carried out the experiments doesn't mean there is nothing to what is being said. It just means we need to run some tests.

In standby mode, a little bit of power is required to keep the volatile memory alive.
Exactly, and presumably even more when the computer carries out far more tasks in standby mode.

Looking at the 'specs' from previous 'unsoldered' models, they have the same 30 day standby time estimate. That is also with a smaller battery.
Where are these specs? I honestly don't know what you are referring to, though this does seem to be an instance of a counter-example to what I'm saying. Also, keep in mind, our standby times are also not being measured with Power Nap running, which should make a small difference that over time, incrementally adds up.

Shouldn't the Retina tout something along the lines of - 45 to 60 day standby time to qualify as 'vastly improves'?
It should translate in increased standby time yes. Which is why I'd like to see the specs for the previous unsoldered models if you have that.
 
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ixodes

macrumors 601
Jan 11, 2012
4,430
2
Pacific Coast, USA
The only thing I'm sad about is them killing off the 17 inch.
I agree. However Apple does place a high value on posturing. They are a trendy, fad orienting organization. (Haters? Notice I did _Not_say thats bad). They'd much rather walk away from one of their good products, in the interest of style, skinny & fashionable designs.

Me? I love my new 17" MBP. It's my fourth in six years. Honestly, it's the best MBP I've had. Logically, I'd buy another in a heartbeat.

Apple Logic? Time to kill it off.

Why?

It's too reliable, too trouble free, the best of any 17" in the market, and finally, it just keeps selling.

So why kill it? Simple.

It's _Not Trendy. It's Not garnering headlines, It's not worth keeping.

----------

If you don't like it .....don't buy it.
Much like a hot poker used for cattle branding. Apple has burned this canned respond into the minds of their worshippers. It's quite an accomplishment.

I've lost count as to how many times I've read this response verbatim.

While I've never used it myself, there must be some intrinsic thrill in doing so.
 

jamezr

macrumors G5
Aug 7, 2011
13,153
11,291
US
It's sad that the review was written from the perspective of a poorly informed critic. Had he addressed the reasons why the RAM is soldered and the batteries glued, maybe then it would make the review interesting.

There are performance reasons for abandoning the "upgradable" model. As Apple clearly indicated in its Keynote, legacy tech is not going to be in this machine. Glueing the batteries helps to keep it secure and lock it in place so there is no movement whatsoever when you transport the devices. That helps preserve the batteries against the most common problem, fastener puncturing.

Soldered RAM helps increase power efficiency, which vastly improves standby performance, which is now very relevant with the new ML power nap feature. It also helps to preserve battery cycles over the course of the life of the Laptop.

As far as "proprietary" SSDs. The MBA has the same, yet we don't see any failure of OWC or other third parties from supplying those parts, so even that is a silly complaint to raise. It's simply another cheap talking point.
Where did you get your information from? Where does it say soldered ram is faster? Here is a use case for you..... John Doe saves money for a new MBP and has just enough to spend on a new RMBP. He buys the one with the specs he can afford at the time 8GB ram and 256 SSD. Now 8 month later he is running out of space and needs more ram. Now he either has to spend another $2500 or so on a new machine or just live with the limitations of the existing machine. But it would have been nice to have the ability to spend another $300 or $400 to upgrade his existing machine. I don't think that is asking for much. But the soldered ram and hard drive will not slow down demand for this product. Consumers will just accept these limitations and buy anyway. Just my 2 cents anyway.....
 

Electa

macrumors member
Jun 11, 2012
36
0
Where did you get your information from? Where does it say soldered ram is faster? Here is a use case for you..... John Doe saves money for a new MBP and has just enough to spend on a new RMBP. He buys the one with the specs he can afford at the time 8GB ram and 256 SSD. Now 8 month later he is running out of space and needs more ram. Now he either has to spend another $2500 or so on a new machine or just live with the limitations of the existing machine. But it would have been nice to have the ability to spend another $300 or $400 to upgrade his existing machine. I don't think that is asking for much. But the soldered ram and hard drive will not slow down demand for this product. Consumers will just accept these limitations and buy anyway. Just my 2 cents anyway.....
John Doe can sell the laptop on ebay with a $300-$400 loss profit wise and buy the latest MacBook from apple. What is so hard about this?
 

jamezr

macrumors G5
Aug 7, 2011
13,153
11,291
US
John Doe can sell the laptop on ebay with a $300-$400 loss profit wise and buy the latest MacBook from apple. What is so hard about this?
So to upgrade John Doe has to LOSE money........then SPEND money for a new one? So the original upgrade would have cost roughly $400 to upgrade HD and ram. Now he has to LOSE $400 to sell his laptop then spend another $2500 for a new one? Is that what you are saying? You will not get full retail for a used laptop...no where no how.
 

minnus

macrumors 6502
Aug 12, 2011
347
0
Where are these specs? I honestly don't know what you are referring to, though this does seem to be an instance of a counter-example to what I'm saying. Also, keep in mind, our standby times are also not being measured with Power Nap running, which should make a small difference that over time, incrementally adds up.



It should translate in increased standby time yes. Which is why I'd like to see the specs for the previous unsoldered models if you have that.
Those are 'claims' from Apple's advertising. Unfortunately, the specs for the 2011 models are gone, but doing some quick digging;

"With the advanced processor and graphics performance the battery could long lasts up to 7 hours. It also stands up to 7 hrs when it is connected in wireless network. It has the stand by time of 30 days nearly a month. The MacBook Pro battery lasts up to 5 years of best performance. Ordinary laptops use 3 batteries for the performance but MacBooks use single battery for its enhancing performance."

This is in reference to the 2011 model.

The 2012 model; Retina has similar claims which can be found within the specs.
 

danpass

macrumors 68020
Jun 27, 2009
2,451
116
Miami, FL
they neglected to mention that all this magic is not available (in any way) in the 13in model.

fortunately the 'new' 13in Air now meets my needs :D
 
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