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You can't have a monopoly on your own product; you own it. You have to look at markets; iOS is not a market; smartphones are a market.
And
iOS applications are a market.

You’re both right if you’re arguing about your opinions, and both sort of right if you’re arguing about antitrust law in the US as applied to Apple’s App Store.

I’ll keep this extremely brief, hopefully not uselessly so.
Identifying a market (market definition) is one of the steps courts use when examining an antitrust matter. Reasonable interchangeability of use or sufficient cross-elasticity of demand, and the responsiveness of the sales of one product to price changes of another.

Kodak (photocopier machines) had an argument that said a single brand of a product or service can never be a relevant market under the Sherman act. They lost that particular argument.

As a result aftermarkets are examined the same way as markets.

And this was examined by the 9th circuit opinion in Epic v Apple. In some instances one brand of a product can constitute a separate market. Kodak’s aftermarket had a high switching cost, high information cost, and a substantial ability to exploit ignorant customers.

And while it is possible to have an antitrust market that is a smartphone operating system, customers in the foremarket knowingly restrict their aftermarket options when they purchase an iPhone.

All the same the “market” that was established for antitrust purposes was “mobile-game transactions.” So it stands to reason, iOS applications could become a market (or they are a market).

Unfortunately for Epic (the nearest example we have):

Step one of the ‘rule of reason’ is the challenged restraint (of mobile game transactions) has a substantial anticompetitive effect that harms the consumers. The district court found Apple has extracted ‘supracompetitive commission’ that was both set by near accident and without regard for its own costs, producing near 75% operating margins. And that Apple had wielded its market power to exclude Epic from offering app-distribution and payment processing alternatives. 9th circuit pretty much agreed (Epic wins step 1).

Step 2: When deciding whether Apple implement procompetitive rationales for its restrictions, the district court found Apple had two cognizable reasons: (1) to improve security and privacy, providing an appeal to consumers and to differentiate iOS from competitors, and (2) restrictions were designed to compensate Apple for its IP investment. The 9th circuit more or less agreed with the district court’s (more or less) two reasons accepted (Epic ‘loses’ (didn’t shift) step 2).

Step 3: And the district court found epic failed to established a substantially less restrictive means to achieve step 2. Antitrust law does not require businesses to use the least restrictive means of achieving their legitimate business objectives; instead, substantially, must be virtually as effective in serving Apple’s step 2 without significantly increasing costs. (Epic loses step 3).

Step 4 (if step 4 even exists): Finally, balancing the anticompetitive effect of Apple’s step 2 (procompetitive benefits), district court considered that the step 2 have pro- effects that offset anti- effects. (Epic ‘loses’ step 4)

As you might have guessed the analysis doesn’t stop there, but you can see how maybe you’re both “right”.
 
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Incorrect. You can make up any reason why the DMA exists. It’s anti-American tech targeting Apple.
I agree. Europe is really ramping up targeting American companies because they have no tech industry. Wonderful allies.
 
And


You’re both right if you’re arguing about your opinions, and both sort of right if you’re arguing about antitrust law in the US as applied to Apple’s App Store.

I’ll keep this extremely brief, hopefully not uselessly so.
Identifying a market (market definition) is one of the steps courts use when examining an antitrust matter. Reasonable interchangeability of use or sufficient cross-elasticity of demand, and the responsiveness of the sales of one product to price changes of another.

Kodak (photocopier machines) had an argument that said a single brand of a product or service can never be a relevant market under the Sherman act. They lost that particular argument.

As a result aftermarkets are examined the same way as markets.

And this was examined by the 9th circuit opinion in Epic v Apple. In some instances one brand of a product can constitute a separate market. Kodak’s aftermarket had a high switching cost, high information cost, and a substantial ability to exploit ignorant customers.

And while it is possible to have an antitrust market that is a smartphone operating system, customers in the foremarket knowingly restrict their aftermarket options when they purchase an iPhone.

All the same the “market” that was established for antitrust purposes was “mobile-game transactions.” So it stands to reason, iOS applications could become a market (or they are a market).

Unfortunately for Epic (the nearest example we have):

Step one of the ‘rule of reason’ is the challenged restraint (of mobile game transactions) has a substantial anticompetitive effect that harms the consumers. The district court found Apple has extracted ‘supracompetitive commission’ that was both set by near accident and without regard for its own costs, producing near 75% operating margins. And that Apple had wielded its market power to exclude Epic from offering app-distribution and payment processing alternatives. 9th circuit pretty much agreed (Epic wins step 1).

Step 2: When deciding whether Apple implement procompetitive rationales for its restrictions, the district court found Apple had two cognizable reasons: (1) to improve security and privacy, providing an appeal to consumers and to differentiate iOS from competitors, and (2) restrictions were designed to compensate Apple for its IP investment. The 9th circuit more or less agreed with the district court’s (more or less) two reasons accepted (Epic ‘loses’ (didn’t shift) step 2).

Step 3: And the district court found epic failed to established a substantially less restrictive means to achieve step 2. Antitrust law does not require businesses to use the least restrictive means of achieving their legitimate business objectives; instead, substantially, must be virtually as effective in serving Apple’s step 2 without significantly increasing costs. (Epic loses step 3).

Step 4 (if step 4 even exists): Finally, balancing the anticompetitive effect of Apple’s step 2 (procompetitive benefits), district court considered that the step 2 have pro- effects that offset anti- effects. (Epic ‘loses’ step 4)

As you might have guessed the analysis doesn’t stop there, but you can see how maybe you’re both “right”.
The DOJ case has not been tested in court, until then it is a lot of wishful thinking by the DOJ.
 
The DOJ case has not been tested in court, until then it is a lot of wishful thinking by the DOJ.

I guess, but a couple things:
- Epic’s private lawsuit against Apple examined market definition, monopolization, and consumer harm, which would be the same that the DOJ would examine.
- DOJ did pursue Google, which examined market definition, monopolistic practices, and exclusionary conduct which could be similar to a case against Apple.

So we’re not completely in the dark about how a case might unfold. So while I think Apple would likely win (on App Store) in 2025, that doesn’t mean definitely or in perpetuity. All it takes is a Supreme Court ruling to reverse or double down on some Bork theories and suddenly Apple loses or wins.
 
All the same the “market” that was established for antitrust purposes was “mobile-game transactions.” So it stands to reason, iOS applications could become a market (or they are a market).
I don't know how that follows. When looking at games, the court decided the relevant market was "mobile game transactions." So it actually stand to reason that when looking at apps, the relevant market would be "mobile app transactions."
 
He has no understanding of hardware, software or OSs.
Who? I?
I readily admit I’m not an iOS developer, but I’m quite familiar with all of them.
That said, my comment above about regulating software compatibility was in jest.
Exactly the same with smartphones. You can change your supplier
…but you can’t simply change it for app (once you have committed to a platform).
This is just words being thrown around. There has been no finding anywhere of this and yet it’s been repeated so often it’s a meme.
They were fined by the EU for abusing their “monopoly for setting the terms for app distribution of music streaming apps on iOS”.
 
ou can make up any reason why the DMA exists. It’s anti-American tech targeting Apple.
…and so is Brazil’s enforcing their antitrust law against Apple and its App Store practices.
…and so is Japan’s law on digital markets.
…and the United Kingdom’s.
…and South Korea’s.

Wait, South Korea (!) of all countries, is supposed to be Anti-American?!
Something’s looking pretty ridiculous and silly. It should give you pause.

There’s a reason why developed nations around the world have begun tackling the issue of lack of competition and contestability in digital markets. And it’s not because they’ve suddenly all turned anti-American (though the latter’s current administration provide loads of good reasons to do so). And neither is it only evil streaming and gaming companies - a fraction the size and worth of Apple - paying politicians off everywhere.

I mean… has the United States Department of Justice recently become “Anti-American”, too?! 😄
 
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I don't know how that follows. When looking at games, the court decided the relevant market was "mobile game transactions." So it actually stand to reason that when looking at apps, the relevant market would be "mobile app transactions."

I did rush through analysis, but the idea I skipped is highlighting that the game transactions aftermarket is a markets, so then a larger aftermarket-market of the App Store in general is probably also going to be identified as a ‘market.’ (I.e. Apple couldn’t even win on the tiny segment of ‘mobile game transactions’ not being a market, they’re probably not going to win on a larger collection of transactions.)

But the point I rushed through was to help people see there’s probably not any doubt the App Store is a market (I’d say take my word for it, but don’t do that). However, that’s not the question that court gets hung up on, Apple doesn’t even spend that much time on those arguments, it’s whether it violates any antitrust principles.
 
I did rush through analysis, but the idea I skipped is highlighting that the game transactions aftermarket is a markets, so then a larger aftermarket-market of the App Store in general is probably also going to be identified as a ‘market.’ (I.e. Apple couldn’t even win on the tiny segment of ‘mobile game transactions’ not being a market, they’re probably not going to win on a larger collection of transactions.)
Except Apple did win on the related point. The court determined that Apple did not violate any federal or state antitrust laws.
 
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Except Apple did win. The court determined that Apple did not violate any federal or state antitrust laws.
Probably (see below) but that’s also not what I was saying. I wasn’t taking a position on whether or not Apple was violating antitrust law, I was just trying to help the discussion shift from “is it market” or “is it a monopoly” to “is it or should it be unlawful?” Which is far more open to opinion.

Regarding Apple’s potentially antitrust violation at the state level, I think the 9th did affirm a separate decision by the district court regarding anti-steering of California’s Unfair Competition Law, although I think (I don’t know for certain) that is an unfair business practice in California (not antitrust).
 
developers like epic should thank apple
At the same time Apple trying hard to evade taxes with obscure structures in Ireland. No one has to thank Apple for anything, they are far from a charity, rather the opposite, a greedy corp.
completely irrelevant to developers making a good living on apple's platform
 
Apple provides:
Storage, bandwidth and management
First line marketing,
Complete returns and refunds and resolution.
1000s of APIs and comprehensive Developer Tools like swift
ARKit, HealthKit, CoreML, and other iOS frameworks
Global Distribution
Built-in support for local currencies, taxes, and compliance
Analytics and Insights
Apple Pay, Game Center, Sign In with Apple
Push notifications (via Apple Push Notification service)
1000s of Developer Documents and Sample Code
Developer forums and events
GDPR and privacy compliance frameworks
Currency conversion, taxation, and invoice generation
Revenue collection and disbursement in local currencies
.... oh and 1.5 Billion Potential Customers they wouldn't have had

Epic want access to all that for free.
yep. another big one is free maps. big apps usually pay google thousands per month for google maps. apple maps is free
 
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Probably (see below) but that’s also not what I was saying. I wasn’t taking a position on whether or not Apple was violating antitrust law, I was just trying to helping the discussion shift from “is it market” or “is it a monopoly” to “is it or should it be unlawful?” Which is far more open to opinion.
Sure, but the point in defining the market (as we were discussing) is to determine whether antitrust law is applicable. I think it's significant that the court in the Epic case defined the market across mobile platforms and did not restrict it to iOS.

Regarding Apple’s potentially antitrust violation at the state level, I think the 9th did affirm a separate decision by the district court regarding anti-steering of California’s Unfair Competition Law, although I think (I don’t know for certain) that is an unfair business practice in California (not antitrust).
Correct.
 
Sure, but the point in defining the market (as we were discussing) is to determine whether antitrust law is applicable. I think it's significant that the court in the Epic case defined the market across mobile platforms and did not restrict it to iOS.

[…]

If I understand correctly, this might help (maybe not, maybe I am talking past you)… it benefits Apple to have a narrow market definition like “mobile game transactions” not Epic in the context of antitrust analysis. It limited Epic’s ability to show Apple possessed market power sufficient to cause broader antitrust harm.

When you’re defending an antitrust lawsuit, you want a very narrow market to be the subject. Smaller the better. It makes it way more difficult to prove an antitrust harm.

[edit] And getting to antitrust (market) analysis isn’t the hard part, so that was already a given.[\edit]
 
yep. another big one is free maps. big apps usually pay google thousands per month for google maps. apple maps is free
…and yet, the most prolific users of Apple Maps - namely transit apps, some which are raking in billions every year in ticket/travel card sales - do not have to pay Apple a commission on their revenue.
 
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If I understand correctly, this might help (maybe not, maybe I am talking past you)… it benefits Apple to have a narrow market definition like “mobile game transactions” not Epic in the context of antitrust analysis. It limited Epic’s ability to show Apple possessed market power sufficient to cause broader antitrust harm.

When you’re defending an antitrust lawsuit, you want a very narrow market to be the subject. Smaller the better. It makes it way more difficult to prove an antitrust harm.

[edit] And getting to antitrust (market) analysis isn’t the hard part, so that was already a given.[\edit]
Exactly the opposite of what you are saying here. Epic wanted a narrower market limited to iOS. Apple wanted a broader market of all games. The court went in the middle with mobile games.
 
Exactly the opposite of what you are saying here. Epic wanted a narrower market limited to iOS. Apple wanted a broader market of all games. The court went in the middle with mobile games.
I see what you’re saying now, I skipped way ahead. I’d direct those people to Kodak’s argument in the 90s, and then I would say we don’t know, all we do know about the aftermarket is: it could be a market.

And then yes, iOS game transactions vs mobile game transactions, I guess iOS would be better for Epic but I need to think about that—my hot take is—that’s a little bizarre. Second take (and no more certain), it probably doesn’t matter in terms of the 9th circuit opinion.

[edit]I should add, I don’t think Epic even made the argument that it should be iOS game transactions, they focused on iOS app distribution, and iOS in-app payment solutions.[\edit]
 
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And Sony holds 100% PlayStation, Walmart holds 100% of their stories. iOS isn't a market it a platform in the smart phone market.
Neither holds full monopoly on the consumer.
  • If McDonald's and KFC had a duopoly for sales of soft drinks and...
  • if McDonald's' and KFC's customer paid hundreds of dollars as entry fee to their respective restaurants every 2-3 years and...
  • If switching from McDonald's to KFC or vice versa had the same costs/barriers (customer lock-in)...
👉 ...then yes, I should mandate McDonald's to sell Pepsi, and KFC to sell Coke.

Not that I would personally care.
But given how popular soft drinks are with consumers, I'm all for consumer choice.


Do you still believe soft drinks are a very fitting analogy?
The analogy’s would require the consumers buying a new house, car, phone or be bared from their establishments
I’m going to ignore the personal attacks and answer your question. Android and iOS compete at the platform level on:
  • Developers’ resources
  • Consumer device choice
  • Policies and rules
  • Revenue models
Most apps exist on both platforms, and for all intents and purposes they’re substantially the same. Plenty of people switch every day. Despite protestations on here, it’s really easy to do.

Given all of this, there is no reason the market competitor that has ~27% share should be forced to act like the one with 73% share. It’s the government picking winners and losers.


Agree. But if I think a law like the DMA is unjust, biased against American companies, wrong on the merits, will chill innovation, and ironically does nothing to actually solve the root cause but instead makes it worse, I’m going to say so.

I mean the law demands Apple give any iOS software innovation to any competitor for free. It’s forcing Apple to make AirPlay work on Android. How is that not a huge overreach and theft of IP?


I agree with you that if you are pigeonholing the market to “iOS apps” then Apple has a monopoly on the distribution of iOS apps. But we’ve never done that for any other sort of product. And we shouldn’t start now.
We have for a long while
It is the case.


It does. Emphasis mine:




Yes, true. emphasis mine:
well as you refer in the document
Apple may only impose reasonable, strictly necessary and proportionate technical or contractual conditions on third parties in that regard. To the extent a third-party connected physical device must meet technical requirements to be able to act as an AirPlay sender or receiver, these requirements must
It does seem like the best deal for developers is for them to be able to stay within the app store (where they benefit from having ready access to the 1+ billion strong user base that Apple has so painstakingly aggregated), while being able to keep 100% of app revenue by utilising third party payment options that eschew Apple's 30% cut.

And of course all this comes at the expense of Apple's bottom line, and I guess it's easy to say that Apple can and should just subsidise all this out of their own pocket since they are already making so much money. No credit is given for the role Apple plays in growing the pie for developers, how they have created a trusted marketplace which makes consumers more open to purchasing and downloading apps, or how the lower propensity for piracy helps in boosting app sales overall. Or the convenience for consumers in the form of centralised payments.

Won't it be ironic if some day in the future, consumers start reminiscing about the "good old days" where they didn't need to manage multiple app stores or payment systems in order to get all their apps. People often don't realise how good they had it until they lose it. :cool:

I do feel that by and large, not much will change for Apple. When it comes to freemium apps, even the slightest bit of friction can result in a ton of lost sales as that added step leads to consumers rethinking their decision to buy extra game credits. These developers will have to decide whether 100% of a smaller percentage of sales is worth it compared to 70% of a larger proportion of IAPs.

Tim Sweeney should be aware of this better than anyone else.

Second, a payment option like Stripe does apparently have a fixed component to their commission (3.4% + $0.50 per transaction). If your app is relatively inexpensive, using Stripe may not really save you anything compared to simply using iTunes (particularly if you already qualify for Apple's small developer programme). I am not sure if there is any extra administrative overhead as well compared to going with iTunes (maybe there's zero with Stripe, the company handles all the backend for you and I am simply wrong here).

When all is said and done, Apple is probably looking at the loss of a few billion dollars of App Store revenue. Not exactly couch change, but it won't break the bank either. At the same time, I am not really seeing how any of this benefits or empowers small developers. But I guess if people are that invested in making sure that Epic keeps 100% of Fortnite revenue, or for Spotify to make more money while continuing to underpay musicians, good for them too, I guess. :)
Nah, the developers won’t need to decide between 70% or 100%. They can just provide both options in the app
Button left apples IAP(70%), button right ApplePay (100%)
 
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…and so is Brazil’s enforcing their antitrust law against Apple and its App Store practices.
…and so is Japan’s law on digital markets.
…and the United Kingdom’s.
…and South Korea’s.

Wait, South Korea (!) of all countries, is supposed to be Anti-American?!
Something’s looking pretty ridiculous and silly. It should give you pause.

There’s a reason why developed nations around the world have begun tackling the issue of lack of competition and contestability in digital markets. And it’s not because they’ve suddenly all turned anti-American (though the latter’s current administration provide loads of good reasons to do so). And neither is it only evil streaming and gaming companies - a fraction the size and worth of Apple - paying politicians off everywhere.

I mean… has the United States Department of Justice recently become “Anti-American”, too?! 😄
I stand by my comments about the DMA and the rest we’ll see. To me it’s a copycat effect.

And forget about the doj their motto is “win some and lose some”.
 
[…]

…but you can’t simply change it for app (once you have committed to a platform).

[…]
Just like when one commits to a vendor you can’t change out the innards. Don’t expect to buy an Xbox and play a PlayStation game.

Imo, the eu is abusing their position with these fines. Loosely defined laws designed to entrap.
 
I stand by my comments about the DMA and the rest we’ll see. To me it’s a copycat effect.
Why, in your opinion, do they copy Europe though?

I mean, the DoJ and Korea (with the U.S. being a major military ally and protecting power against the North) being “Anti-American” can’t seem far-fetched only to me.
 
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