rickvanr said:
I am sure that kids that kill for sneakers and coats say the same thing.
Really sad IMO.
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Uber Disgusted w/ This Issue: Piracy
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I am sure that kids that kill for sneakers and coats say the same thing.
Really sad IMO.
LethalWolfe said:
I think you misunderstood. I listen to music. If it's good. I'll buy it and continue to listen it, thus supporting the artist. If it's not good, I won't buy it knowing it's not very good, and I won't listen to it.
Chip NoVaMac said:
On a completely different level. I'm sure you never litter either.
dephlt said:wrt to the other stuff ie music & vids, it's becoming REALLY out of hand. with these new HD DVD and blue ray thingys, i hope that they somehow prevent the data from being read at ALL(cept for when you want to watch your movies...).
You know, this touches on the thing that upsets me most about piracy in general. If it weren't for the rampant piracy that goes on, we wouldn't have software serial numbers, activation (yay XP
), DVD encryption, iTunes DRM, and the DMCA to prevent us from legally exercising our fair use rights. I mean, maybe companies would still dream this up without piracy, but that's doubtful; piracy is driving it. And it's only going to get worse. I'm sure HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will have much stronger encryption, and there's already significant work going on so that next generation content will refuse to play unless the display has authorization to view it. For honest consumers, it just means more headaches and less opportunity to legally exercise fair use.Of course even without piracy, the companies involved all have no obligation to make it easy for us to exercise fair use. One of the anti-DRM complaints I see most often seems to assume that they somehow owe it to us to let us copy stuff we bought, but that's bogus. There's no obligation there, moral or otherwise. It's just that in the absence of piracy, it only makes good business sense to ensure things are open and easy to copy for fair use purposes (backups, content management a la iTunes, etc). The more flexible content will always sell better, all other things being equal.
Unfortunately piracy is only encouraging content providers to find new ways to lock things down in tighter and more difficult DRM. We lose.
Morality is subjective. Objective morality is an oxymoron. Enough said!
Piracy is a huge business in Mexico, and even bigger in other parts of Latin America. Mexican music artists still live in their mansions in Guadalajara, Cuernavaca, Monterrey, Miami, and Los Angeles and do not bitch about piracy.
The piracy issue is an argument from greedy wealthy corporate pigs. I could have inserted the word 'gringo' in the previous sentence.
Piracy is a huge business in Mexico, and even bigger in other parts of Latin America. Mexican music artists still live in their mansions in Guadalajara, Cuernavaca, Monterrey, Miami, and Los Angeles and do not bitch about piracy.
The piracy issue is an argument from greedy wealthy corporate pigs. I could have inserted the word 'gringo' in the previous sentence.
rickvanr said:
I did see that you specified that you'd pay for music you liked. Does the same hold true for other things (games, software, movies, etc.,)?
Lethal
rickvanr said:
OK then. I'll come over tonight aroud 3 AM and take your TV.
If I like it, I might pay you for it. If I don't, I promise not to watch it.
rickvanr said:
Ah, the logical fallacy ad hominem tu quoque.
http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm
If I litter, then I am not justified in calling you out on stealing copyrighted material?
OK, I don't litter. And I stop at stop signs even when there are no other cars.
And I am still pissed at paying a $0.21 recording levy on every ^$*#@ data CD-R I buy becuse you and your co-religionists copied music to the extent that the industry was able to successfully lobby the Canadian government for a penalty. Thus piracy costs me approx $250 per year, personally, out of my own pocket.
Don't you EVER tell me that copying music is a victimless crime.
Hey Pinocchio, look!! Your nose is growing!!!rickvanr said:
I hear that all the time from so many people, but when you start asking them a little bit more in detail it turns out that they maybe buy some of the CDs of the music they like, but that still the biggest share of the music they listen to are illegal/downloaded copies...
So in fact all the music you have on your Computer should be legally purchased and only a few songs are downloaded illegaly for "evaluation purposes"... Please, cut the crap!
The copyright laws for music are debatable for sure and I am no friend of the music industry in general. But there is one thing you all should realize. It is exactly that attitude that prevents alternative models to become more succesful. It makes the standpoint of the music industry even stronger. How could an artist be sure to get some money for his work, when everbody doesn't give a crap about supporting them for their efforts?
Please don't forget, the majority of the musicians are no millionaires who can whipe the arses with 100$ bills. Lots (or most) of the good music is done by artists who are not in the Top Ten of the charts.
And in case you wonder... I was a pro musician myself for years and gave it up because I couldn't make enough money (whoch partly fault of the MI, but that's another subject). Most of my friends are still pros, but I don't want to switch places with them, considering how they are struggeling all the time.
Your attitude is making it even worse for them.
I can remember a little story that happened at a concert of a friend. He was touring little clubs to present his (back then) new CD. The crowd really liked his music and the CDs were sold for 15 at the door. Right behind me at another table was a group of 4 people chatting about how good the music was and they were thinking about buying the CD. Then one of them said: "Hey, I buy it and make a copy for each of you guys! Just throw in some money so that it gets cheaper for all of us!" So far about supporting artists that people like... BTW, I forgot to mention that he has to do other jobs besides music to survive...
I wonder how you would feel if you would be a Shareware developer and you can't pay your bills, even though you know that for every paid license there are 100 or more people out there who use your software illegaly with a pirated key...
groovebuster
LethalWolfe said:
Yes, I bought Unreal 2003, Tiger, and iLife 05. I buy movies all the time, most recently I picked up the new Batman, and Philadelphia.
CanadaRAM said:
Different circumstances. Returning it without a scratch before I noticed it gone would be the same circumstances. No harm, no foul.
CanadaRAM said:
I pay the same fee. It's a mute point.
groovebuster said:Hey Pinocchio, look!! Your nose is growing!!!
I hear that all the time from so many people, but when you start asking them a little bit more in detail it turns out that they maybe buy some of the CDs of the music they like, but that still the biggest share of the music they listen to are illegal/downloaded copies...
So in fact all the music you have on your Computer should be legally purchased and only a few songs are downloaded illegaly for "evaluation purposes"... Please, cut the crap!
The copyright laws for music are debatable for sure and I am no friend of the music industry in general. But there is one thing you all should realize. It is exactly that attitude that prevents alternative models to become more succesful. It makes the standpoint of the music industry even stronger. How could an artist be sure to get some money for his work, when everbody doesn't give a crap about supporting them for their efforts?
Please don't forget, the majority of the musicians are no millionaires who can whipe the arses with 100$ bills. Lots (or most) of the good music is done by artists who are not in the Top Ten of the charts.
And in case you wonder... I was a pro musician myself for years and gave it up because I couldn't make enough money (whoch partly fault of the MI, but that's another subject). Most of my friends are still pros, but I don't want to switch places with them, considering how they are struggeling all the time.
Your attitude is making it even worse for them.
I can remember a little story that happened at a concert of a friend. He was touring little clubs to present his (back then) new CD. The crowd really liked his music and the CDs were sold for 15€ at the door. Right behind me at another table was a group of 4 people chatting about how good the music was and they were thinking about buying the CD. Then one of them said: "Hey, I buy it and make a copy for each of you guys! Just throw in some money so that it gets cheaper for all of us!" So far about supporting artists that people like... BTW, I forgot to mention that he has to do other jobs besides music to survive...
I wonder how you would feel if you would be a Shareware developer and you can't pay your bills, even though you know that for every paid license there are 100 or more people out there who use your software illegaly with a pirated key...
groovebuster
It's not crap. Most of my music is legally bought. If it wasn't for the internet I wouldn't even know half the bands I listen to now because I don't listen to Top Ten music, I listen to small indie bands, bands from nowhere near where I live, and bands that aren't played on the radio. If they are good I'll buy there stuff. How hard is that to get? I don't buy crap, and if I was selling crap I wouldn't expect you to buy it.
Kidnapping is a huge business in Mexico too...Chacala_Nayarit said:
This common "defense" is so selective and narrow minded it's beyond laughable. For everyone million dollar superstar I bet there are at least 1,000 struggling bands that could use every sale they can get. And if a label needs to tighten its belt where are they gonna cut costs? The million dollar superstar? Hell no, that's their cash cow. That's the reason they get to stay in business. It's the smaller bands that get screwed. Yer right, pirating probably won't impact Snoop Dogg's spending habits. But it will impact lessor known artists that are struggling to make a living playing music.
Piracy is an issue for anyone that wants to be fairly compensated for work they do. I'm far from greedy, wealthy, or corporate, and I depend on the movie & TV industry to make a living. When studios, labels, or networks have to make cut backs those changes effect tens, if not hundreds, of thousands people who directly, or indirectly, depend on the entertainment industry for a living. 99% of which are a far cry from millionaires let alone "greedy wealthy corporate pigs."The piracy issue is an argument from greedy wealthy corporate pigs. I could have inserted the word 'gringo' in the previous sentence.
Lethal
bankshot said:
welll... i dont think that the solution lies in encryption because that can ALWAYS be broken
i think that some othermeans of PHYSICAL prevention is necessary, like not providing any sort of dvd/BR writting material from being commercially sold
if they can prevent the contents of a disc from being "explored", only played for the intent that they are created - something like the little latch on floppys "protect-unprotect" but obviously not a thing that you can change yourself
i dont know, but a "play-movie-only media disc" could also exist seperatly to the the usual R-RW things.. and this must be a physical blockage, not an encryption-like method
I agree.LethalWolfe said:
But Chacala has one point: The piracy problem IS all about greed: The greed of millions of people who feel that they are entitled to have something for nothing.
It's the entitlement myth that because it is POSSIBLE to pirate with a very small chance of being caught, that the person is then somehow justified in enjoying listenting to or watching something, at no cost. Something. For nothing. That's all there is to it.
Chacala_Nayarit said:Morality is subjective. Objective morality is an oxymoron. Enough said!
Piracy is a huge business in Mexico, and even bigger in other parts of Latin America. Mexican music artists still live in their mansions in Guadalajara, Cuernavaca, Monterrey, Miami, and Los Angeles and do not bitch about piracy.
The piracy issue is an argument from greedy wealthy corporate pigs. I could have inserted the word 'gringo' in the previous sentence.
I think that's probably enough of using gringo in any sentence.
I'm glad that piracy is reasonable in Mexico but my friend who is trying to get a record contract and has a CD is struggling to pay his bills while going to university and makes something like $100 after paying the rest of the band at a live performance doesn't get far if someone pirates his music. He can't live on what he doesn't have. He has no mansion.
dephlt said:i think that some othermeans of PHYSICAL prevention is necessary, like not providing any sort of dvd/BR writting material from being commercially sold
HD copy protection (HDCP) is going a step farther. You'll have to have an HDCP compliant player attached to an HDC compliant TV (or computer monitor) via DVI or HDMI connection. If you don't you won't get an HD signal. And the TV and the player are constantly sending encrypted signals back and forth to verify that they are compliant devices. And the encrypted verification keys can be updated by signals imbedded in HiDef DVDs and, IIRC, HD broadcast signals.
So, for example, let's say someone makes a "black box" that allows an HDCP HiDef DVD player to pass an HD signal to a non-HDCP TV by spoofing the encrypted verification signals. The data in the DVD player can be updated (by a TV signal or by data contained in a new DVD movie) so it sees the black box as a rogue device and the player will no longer send out an HD signal.
Nothing is perfect, but this level of DRM looks like it will be much tougher to get around than the stuff on DVDs today.
Lethal
rickvanr said:
I confess... I have downloaded stuff but I only download stuff that I intend to buy/have ordered. But music-wise, it's stuff that I've ordered on physical CD but it's going to take a week and I want to hear it. Once my real copy arrives, I delete the downloaded copy and rip it myself. Instant gratification is my problem!
I've downloaded one movie that I really wanted to see but which I couldn't organise my friends to get to the cinema for another 4 weeks. That's still on my hard drive but only until the DVD comes out when I'll delete the copy and buy it.
While we are on the subject of misplaced justification, we should talk about the misplaced justification coming from the other side of the piracy/filesharing debate.
1) The high price of software is not due to developers taking into account piracy. Even if every pirated copy was suddenly purchased, would software prices come down? Highly doubtful. What would most likely happen is that companies would find a new justification, and profit baselines would be adjusted upwards accordingly. This would especially be the case for packages with a high marketshare, as they are not as susceptible to constraints on pricing as determined by the market.
2) Filesharing is causing a decrease in movie and music revenues. There have been some studies that have shown this to not necessarily be the case. Possible explanations include:
Finally, let's admit that this conflict between content distributers (not necessarily creators, as creators do get screwed by distributers with debatable frequency) and pirates/filesharers is not a good versus evil conflict. It's more like rich, greedy people (convicted of collusion) versus average-income, people with morals of convenience.
Please notice that I am not using the above as justification for piracy or filesharing. Just trying to reduce the false moral superiority of those who support the most vocal corporations.
crackpip
As a sidenote to one of LethalWolf's previous posts. I'd just like to say, that while it sucks, all industries are subject to growth and decline. The first reaction is often to blame outside factors, when in-fact it may be something more fundamental. Many programmers were laid-off with the dotcom bubble burst, which was unrelated to piracy. Instead it was the wasting of venture capital on ideas that lacked marketable products or services. The recording industry blamed cassette recorders for the decline during the end of the disco era, but really it was more about the music.
1) The high price of software is not due to developers taking into account piracy. Even if every pirated copy was suddenly purchased, would software prices come down? Highly doubtful. What would most likely happen is that companies would find a new justification, and profit baselines would be adjusted upwards accordingly. This would especially be the case for packages with a high marketshare, as they are not as susceptible to constraints on pricing as determined by the market.
2) Filesharing is causing a decrease in movie and music revenues. There have been some studies that have shown this to not necessarily be the case. Possible explanations include:
changes in listener behavior- Fan bases seem to have become less dedicated. Previously, a loyal fan base would generally remain loyal even after a bad album or two. So labels could count on solid sales of albums from previously popular bands.
decreased disposable income due to the recession that we are supposedly coming out of
increased competition from comparably priced DVD's, which are perceived to have a greater value.
current popular music may be losing touch with listeners. Parallels have been drawn to the end of the Disco era, as people became tired of the genre. Coincident with the introduction of 80's music, music sales increased rapidly.
And on the box office front, increasing prices and more dissatisfaction with the movie going environment (rude people, commercials at the beginning, increasing quality of home entertainment centers, etc)
decreased disposable income due to the recession that we are supposedly coming out of
increased competition from comparably priced DVD's, which are perceived to have a greater value.
current popular music may be losing touch with listeners. Parallels have been drawn to the end of the Disco era, as people became tired of the genre. Coincident with the introduction of 80's music, music sales increased rapidly.
And on the box office front, increasing prices and more dissatisfaction with the movie going environment (rude people, commercials at the beginning, increasing quality of home entertainment centers, etc)
Finally, let's admit that this conflict between content distributers (not necessarily creators, as creators do get screwed by distributers with debatable frequency) and pirates/filesharers is not a good versus evil conflict. It's more like rich, greedy people (convicted of collusion) versus average-income, people with morals of convenience.
Please notice that I am not using the above as justification for piracy or filesharing. Just trying to reduce the false moral superiority of those who support the most vocal corporations.
crackpip
As a sidenote to one of LethalWolf's previous posts. I'd just like to say, that while it sucks, all industries are subject to growth and decline. The first reaction is often to blame outside factors, when in-fact it may be something more fundamental. Many programmers were laid-off with the dotcom bubble burst, which was unrelated to piracy. Instead it was the wasting of venture capital on ideas that lacked marketable products or services. The recording industry blamed cassette recorders for the decline during the end of the disco era, but really it was more about the music.
@rickvanr:
So you are a Robin Hood, one of the good prirates. You wouldn't believe how often people told me tales like that already.
But it's OK. Next time I'll steal a TV and when the police will arrest me I will just tell them that I wanted to pay the TV anyway if I liked it and if not I would have brought it back...
groovebuster
So you are a Robin Hood, one of the good prirates.
You wouldn't believe how often people told me tales like that already.But it's OK. Next time I'll steal a TV and when the police will arrest me I will just tell them that I wanted to pay the TV anyway if I liked it and if not I would have brought it back...
groovebuster
CanadaRAM said:
The pirates are not the only people who have a misguided sense of entitlement. The record companies especially feel entitled to never-ending growth and whatever profits *they* feel are reasonable. In the case of this oligopoly there is little power of the market to determine a fair price for their products.
Also, when it comes to the levy that you Canadians pay on media, perhaps equal blame should be placed on the political systems (in Canada, the US and many other places) that allow corporations so much power through lobbying.
crackpip
crackpip said:
Nice, well said post.
The part of my post you are referring to was meant to debunk a common, narrow minded justification for piracy that assumes that everyone in the entertainment industry is a multimillionaire. It's like assuming that everyone in the computer field is rolling in money because Bill Gates is rolling in money. The logic is so completely flawed it's not even funny.
I wasn't meaning to imply that piracy 'causes all the ills in the job market. I was just trying to make the point that piracy, or anything that negatively effects the industry, is going to be felt the most by regular people in the industry who are worlds away from being millionaires.
Lethal
bousozoku said:
Actually, your friend sounds like he might be the type of person that piracy would benefit. It sounds like he needs more notoriety to build a decent size fan base. Missing profits due to piracy may be compensated with increased turn-out at his shows and the ability to play larger, more profitable venues, or improved chances to actually get a recording contract (though he probably wouldn't make much money from the contract itself).
crackpip
crackpip said:
Increased turn out at his shows so more people can screw him out of money even though they really like the music (referencing GB's post #34).
Lethal
One theme that has arisen here is that some people like to 'try-before-they-buy'. A couple of people have suggested that downloading music for evaluation is like stealing a TV with the intention of paying later.
When I bought my guitar, I 'borrowed' it from the shop for a few days to decide whether I liked it or not. The same with our car. The same with my speakers. The same with my bed. The same with the shirt I'm wearing! Why can't it be the same with my music?
The fact is that, in 2005, music critics are either biased or tasteless, a number of record companies are guilty of payola, and a lot of artists are making ***** records. iTunes will let me listen to a 30 second sample, but it's not really enough. I can download a record off of BitTorrent, listen to it a couple of times and either a) delete it or b) pay for it. The disturbing thing is that, despite being an obsessive collector, 90% of the records I download are gleefully dragged to the trash.
Fortunately, the money I save goes towards purchasing the back-catalogues of the 10% of artists who actually deserve my money
When I bought my guitar, I 'borrowed' it from the shop for a few days to decide whether I liked it or not. The same with our car. The same with my speakers. The same with my bed. The same with the shirt I'm wearing! Why can't it be the same with my music?
The fact is that, in 2005, music critics are either biased or tasteless, a number of record companies are guilty of payola, and a lot of artists are making ***** records. iTunes will let me listen to a 30 second sample, but it's not really enough. I can download a record off of BitTorrent, listen to it a couple of times and either a) delete it or b) pay for it. The disturbing thing is that, despite being an obsessive collector, 90% of the records I download are gleefully dragged to the trash.
Fortunately, the money I save goes towards purchasing the back-catalogues of the 10% of artists who actually deserve my money
Applespider said:I confess... I have downloaded stuff but I only download stuff that I intend to buy/have ordered. But music-wise, it's stuff that I've ordered on physical CD but it's going to take a week and I want to hear it. Once my real copy arrives, I delete the downloaded copy and rip it myself. Instant gratification is my problem!
I've downloaded one movie that I really wanted to see but which I couldn't organise my friends to get to the cinema for another 4 weeks. That's still on my hard drive but only until the DVD comes out when I'll delete the copy and buy it.
That's exactly what I do. The band isn't losing $15 dollars if I get it 2 weeks early, I'm still going to buy it.
groovebuster said:@rickvanr:
So you are a Robin Hood, one of the good prirates.
But it's OK. Next time I'll steal a TV and when the police will arrest me I will just tell them that I wanted to pay the TV anyway if I liked it and if not I would have brought it back...
groovebuster
Wow. You just don't get it, and that's ok. I'll just bite my tongue.