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This is just the usual manipulation, use and abuse of employment rights / laws.

No, it's the typical misunderstanding of of employment law. IF, using Uber as example, supplied the driver with a car or paid for the car's ownership cost of use and depreciation during work hours AND paid for the gas and other maintenance AND the driver was paid a wage or salary THEN that driver could be considered an employee.

And independent contractor is an individual who essentially self-employed but uses a company like Uber for work support. In Uber's case, client referral. The driver pay Uber a 20% referral fee and pocket the rest. Uber is essentially a product that the driver uses to obtain business contacts. It doesn't "employ" the driver.

There is NO manipulation going on. Employment laws cover and define wage employees, contract employees, independent contractors. Each has a different bundle of rights based on their employment situation.
 
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Uber tried to drive taxis out of business by undercutting them on price. I guess now we know that business model isn't sustainable.

Basically, If Uber can't afford to pay their drivers more and the service is not making money, the service can not continue in it's current form. That is how capitalism works.

Taxis are heavily regulated in most places for a reason. Why is Uber not subjected to the same regulations?
I totally get that. But at the same time, offering tips as an option doesn't change anything. If we're comparing it to taxi services, then its fair to compare them outright - taxi services expect tips.
 
Taxis are heavily regulated in most places for a reason. Why is Uber not subjected to the same regulations?

Taxi regulations are archaic in most cities and in many instances a form of legalized graft for a limited amount of licenses/medallions but Uber and Lyft are subject to regulations and in certain situations Taxis have priority (designated curb stands, etc) or exclusive access to a public venue. But this is not about regulations.
 
Possibly the cheapest, most pompous low-ball comment I've ever read here. A few bucks to a driver who signed up to provide you a service as a second income or side job who may appreciate a tip? The stark nerve. Really? Karma.

LOL... What a joke. There's nothing "low-ball" about it. Do you tip the mailman? Do you tip the cashier at the supermarket?? Do you tip the UPS driver?? Do you tip the attendant at the state park when you go camping?? Do you tip the lifeguards at the beach????? I highly doubt it.

The whole "tipping" culture is sick and disgusting. "a few bucks to a driver who signed up blah blah blah" that's not the point. It's not about "a few bucks". And whether it's a second income or side job has nothing to do with it. We pay for services. I pay $10 shipping and UPS delivers it to my door. DONE. Do I need to tip the driver? I pay my fee to get in to the state park... Do I need to tip the attendant at the booth??? The problem is Uber. Uber shifts the burden of paying the driver to the customer. Uber also shifts the burden of paying ALL TAXES to the driver. Uber pays ZERO payroll taxes for drivers because they're considered "independent contractors". And Uber drivers don't make SH*T generally speaking. Uber makes a fortune off of drivers that it pays peanuts to and pay zero payroll taxes on.

It's the same with restaurants. The RESTAURANT shifts the burden of paying the employee to the customer. And then (1) the customer is put in the awkward position of having to calculate a f*****g tip, and (2) the waiter/waitress is at the "mercy" of the customer to leave a civilized tip because they DEPEND ON IT. It's sick and twisted, but somehow lots of brain dead people have been brainwashed into defending it. Let's see... What makes more sense??? (1) Paying an employee a civilized wage in the first place, thereby paying payroll taxes for those employees (taxes which are used for the betterment of society as a whole), or (2) paying the employee sh*t-all and then forcing the customer to pay the difference (tax free). If the RESTAURANT actually paid a DECENT, LIVING wage to the waiter/waitress there would be no need for a stupid tip. And waiters/waitresses wouldn't end up depending on tips to make a living. But of course that would require the restaurant to pay more taxes, and of course taxes are evil! And even less taxes are paid because do you REALLY THINK waiters and waitresses declare ALL of their tip income??? Yeah no, that's not happening. If they were paid a decent wage their taxes would be accounted for and paid automatically now wouldn't they?


Same with taxis, at least in my experience in Philadelphia and New York. You get in the cab, go for a ride that ends up costing $18.50 (for example), and the taxi driver expects a tip. Wait WHAT??? A tip for....................?? Driving? Isn't that what I'm paying $18.50 for in the first place??? OK sure if the guy goes out of his way and is super congenial and talkative and offers some good tips or whatever then fine. But I'm talking about a taxi ride where I open the door, put my ass in the seat, and get out. No luggage, no nothing. And I'm supposed to pay a tip?? Hilarious. But for there to be an expectation of a tip on the part of the taxi driver for simply doing his job is absurd and it's ridiculous. If the fare isn't enough to get by on, THEN INCREASE THE FARE. I've ridden in taxis in Western Europe as well as in Argentina. In Europe there's no retarded tipping of taxi drivers. They drive nice vehicles and drive well (unlike here in the US) and they make a decent living and I'm HAPPY to pay whatever the fare is.


To the original point. It's stupid to have to pay a tip to an Uber or Lyft driver. It's a SERVICE. The fare/fee should be related to that service and should provide reasonable $$ to the provider of the service. In the case of UPS, for example, they have a Union. The Union makes sure they don't get f****d over by the UPS Corporation. In the case of Uber, drivers don't have a Union and they have essentially nothing protecting their interests. The reason Uber and Lyft seem so "amazing" in my opinion is because taxi services are so dysmal. If taxis had been providing a decent service in the first place there wouldn't be a need for Uber or Lyft. Uber makes a ton of money off of drivers that eat all of the costs. Drivers pay for the car, the gasoline, the insurance, AND they pay all of the taxes. Again: Uber pays zero payroll taxes for drivers. But they're happy to take their 25% or whatever cut of the fare every time.


The problem is not the driver, the problem is Uber. The problem is a society that's OK with waiters/waitresses getting paid sh*t-all for their work, and being at the mercy of "tips" to make a proper living. The problem is with a society that thinks it's OK for restaurants to basically evade paying taxes on the total compensation of their employees. Instead of being a job with dignity, the waiter/waitress has to kiss every customer's ass in the hopes that they get a decent tip.

The point is not about "a few bucks to a driver" LOL. That's hilarious. The point is about the MILLIONS and BILLIONS of "bucks" to the driver and the waitress and the others that go untaxed. The point is about the MILLIONS and BILLIONS of "bucks" that the customer is forced to pay the employee as opposed to the employer. As a customer it's my job to pay for the SERVICE or the PRODUCT, not to directly pay the WAGES of the employee (as one does with tipping, basically). When you buy a set of tires for your car, I guess you also add in a tip for the mechanic and the trucker who moved the tires and also the employees at the tire factory that made the tires right?


Given your reaction, you must tip everyone. The mailman, the trash guys, the Best Buy employee, the cashier at Target, the painter, the roofer, and the mechanic. Right? I mean someone who doesn't tip is just a scumbag of a human being. A low-balling, pompous individual right.
 
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I pay Uber for a service, and they pay the drivers... there is NO WAY I'm gonna give out extra shekels to the driver. The only tip ill give the driver is to get a better job.
Your a dick. You probably treat the driver, and waiters and waitresses, as your personal slaves. You probably beat your wife and leave your kids in a hot car to run into a bar and have a few with the guys. Karma will come around idiot.
 
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I hate expected tips. One of the things I love about Uber is the fact that they don't ask or expect tips. I've gotten bad service at a restaurant and have been socially pressured by friends and family to leave a 15% tip anyway, or once confronted by the waiter afterwards about why I only left a small tip. I've since learned to simply complain to management, who usually credits your bill for bad service, and then leave the minimum 15% after that.

The tip is no longer optional in many cases it seems, (not by law, but by "social contract") and I hate to see any spread of excepted tipping. I purchased a bag of overpriced roasted nuts at the theatre the other day, and the vender hands me the checkout tablet, where it's asking me if I want to leave a 30% tip, WTF?!

That said I love to give tips when I get great service. When traveling outside of the US, I tip, even though it's not expected, when I feel the service went above and beyond; and because even a 5% tip is more than expected, you can tell that the recipient is appreciative. If it's a place that I visit frequently, service just gets better and better once they know you tip, whereas in the US it rare that anyone cares because you are expected to tip, and to tip at least a minimum amount.

Beyond anyone's love/hate of tipping, I think the fear here with Uber, is that tipping would become expected (and at a certain percentage), and that it would affect your rating. If what people are saying in this forum is true, and an Uber driver is unable to base his passenger's rating based on tipping, then I'm fine with that. I should be able to give a driver 0% or 50% depending on what I think is appropriate and not be down-rated for it.
 
I dislike tips because I feel like crap if I don't provide one. I know I disappoint whoever it is if I can't afford to give one - they think I'm horrible or that I'm some mean person. So I feel obligated to provide a tip even if I can't afford to give one. The response I usually get is that - "Well why do you go out if you can't afford a tip?" Well... Yeah, sure it is only a few bucks but some of us (both my wife and I going to college) are on a really tight budget and we'd love to go out more than a few times a month.

That said, my wife will be the first one to tell you, I tip generously - way too much usually. Having worked low paying jobs I know how much it sucks and I know how badly people treat you. So I usually tip way above 20% --- but I don't often go to expensive places so I can do that without breaking the bank.

Tipping a taxi? I almost always do that - especially in other countries. It's worked out well for me. I'd rather have the guy driving me be super happy about doing so. The only time I've used a Taxi is in Peru - super super cheap there so tipping was easy and fun - they were super appreciative and went out of their way to help / be there for us when we needed them.

Tipping is always EXPECTED in my opinion regardless of what people say. If you don't tip, you're an evil person who shouldn't have gone out in the first place. I go out with coworkers who REFUSE to tip and ... they get ignored, frowned at, not as good service as someone like myself who tips.


When I went to Germany recently I was told it is considered offensive to tip. But after talking to the locals, they said that it wasn't offensive and they'd appreciate it. So we did - tip a lot - but we got great service even without a tip (much better with). Helps being a foreigner I guess.
 
Your a dick. You probably treat the driver, and waiters and waitresses, as your personal slaves. You probably beat your wife and leave your kids in a hot car to run into a bar and have a few with the guys. Karma will come around idiot.

WRONG. As a society we treat the driver, wait staff, and others as personal slaves. As a society we obviously don't care to DEMAND that companies pay their employees 100% of a reasonable wage, thereby (1) ensuring the requisite payroll taxes are collected FOR SOCIETY, (2) providing a measure of dignity to these service positions (because with a decent wage drivers and waitresses and others wouldn't have to grovel for tips that they're basically dependent on). As a society we obviously don't care that business owners shift the burden of paying some percentage of THEIR employees wages thereby avoiding paying taxes on the income and wages.

Wouldn't it be nice if I could get the customers of my employer to pay me 20% in the form of tips LOL!! I mean hell, my company would be thrilled right? They would pay 20% less in payroll taxes, and it would be incumbent on me to report my 20% salary in the form of tips to the IRS. What a deal, baby.

The problem is with a society that doesn't give a sh*t enough to force changes that would ensure business pay their fair share of taxes. Because many have been brainwashed to think that taxes are bad I suppose. And sure when you have a corrupt piece of sh*t government I can see how there's reluctance to pay more taxes. But that's the society we live in. "Trickle-down economics" or something like that. The lowest income earners get just enough to survive, the middle class pays the bulk of the taxes, and the highest earners as well as businesses pay the least.

Wake up sweetheart.
 
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Just started using Lyft for the first time recently. It was great and we always tipped the drivers generously. I don't see any reason to try out Uber any time soon.
 
I'm not one of those anti-tipping activists, I tip and tip well in industries that have traditionally relied on it such as food service. I do think it is a bad model for customers and employees though and liked that new categories created by disruption had the chance to kill this archaic practice. I'm not happy about Uber trying to introduce this, you've disrupted a terrible legacy industry (taxis) with a great new service (app based ride sharing), don't bring in prohibition era employer gimmicks now. I'd rather you raise rates across the board than further this awkward and squishy process.
 
Please explain. I said nothing contradictory.

I already did, but I will post them again:

"If you don't want to tip, then it doesn't matter."

and

"I've driven for Uber before. It's barely even worth it with tips. [in reference to tips as above] It absolutely isn't worth it without."

Saying it does not matter to give a Tip and then saying you will not work without Tips, is clearly two conflicting points of view.

No?
 
LOL... What a joke. There's nothing "low-ball" about it. Do you tip the mailman? Do you tip the cashier at the supermarket?? Do you tip the UPS driver?? Do you tip the attendant at the state park when you go camping?? Do you tip the lifeguards at the beach????? I highly doubt it.

The whole "tipping" culture is sick and disgusting. "a few bucks to a driver who signed up blah blah blah" that's not the point. It's not about "a few bucks". And whether it's a second income or side job has nothing to do with it. We pay for services. I pay $10 shipping and UPS delivers it to my door. DONE. Do I need to tip the driver? I pay my fee to get in to the state park... Do I need to tip the attendant at the booth??? The problem is Uber. Uber shifts the burden of paying the driver to the customer. Uber also shifts the burden of paying ALL TAXES to the driver. Uber pays ZERO payroll taxes for drivers because they're considered "independent contractors". And Uber drivers don't make SH*T generally speaking. Uber makes a fortune off of drivers that it pays peanuts to and pay zero payroll taxes on.

It's the same with restaurants. The RESTAURANT shifts the burden of paying the employee to the customer. And then (1) the customer is put in the awkward position of having to calculate a f*****g tip, and (2) the waiter/waitress is at the "mercy" of the customer to leave a civilized tip because they DEPEND ON IT. It's sick and twisted, but somehow lots of brain dead people have been brainwashed into defending it. Let's see... What makes more sense??? (1) Paying an employee a civilized wage in the first place, thereby paying payroll taxes for those employees (taxes which are used for the betterment of society as a whole), or (2) paying the employee sh*t-all and then forcing the customer to pay the difference (tax free). If the RESTAURANT actually paid a DECENT, LIVING wage to the waiter/waitress there would be no need for a stupid tip. And waiters/waitresses wouldn't end up depending on tips to make a living. But of course that would require the restaurant to pay more taxes, and of course taxes are evil! And even less taxes are paid because do you REALLY THINK waiters and waitresses declare ALL of their tip income??? Yeah no, that's not happening. If they were paid a decent wage their taxes would be accounted for and paid automatically now wouldn't they?


Same with taxis, at least in my experience in Philadelphia and New York. You get in the cab, go for a ride that ends up costing $18.50 (for example), and the taxi driver expects a tip. Wait WHAT??? A tip for....................?? Driving? Isn't that what I'm paying $18.50 for in the first place??? OK sure if the guy goes out of his way and is super congenial and talkative and offers some good tips or whatever then fine. But I'm talking about a taxi ride where I open the door, put my ass in the seat, and get out. No luggage, no nothing. And I'm supposed to pay a tip?? Hilarious. But for there to be an expectation of a tip on the part of the taxi driver for simply doing his job is absurd and it's ridiculous. If the fare isn't enough to get by on, THEN INCREASE THE FARE. I've ridden in taxis in Western Europe as well as in Argentina. In Europe there's no retarded tipping of taxi drivers. They drive nice vehicles and drive well (unlike here in the US) and they make a decent living and I'm HAPPY to pay whatever the fare is.


To the original point. It's stupid to have to pay a tip to an Uber or Lyft driver. It's a SERVICE. The fare/fee should be related to that service and should provide reasonable $$ to the provider of the service. In the case of UPS, for example, they have a Union. The Union makes sure they don't get f****d over by the UPS Corporation. In the case of Uber, drivers don't have a Union and they have essentially nothing protecting their interests. The reason Uber and Lyft seem so "amazing" in my opinion is because taxi services are so dysmal. If taxis had been providing a decent service in the first place there wouldn't be a need for Uber or Lyft. Uber makes a ton of money off of drivers that eat all of the costs. Drivers pay for the car, the gasoline, the insurance, AND they pay all of the taxes. Again: Uber pays zero payroll taxes for drivers. But they're happy to take their 25% or whatever cut of the fare every time.


The problem is not the driver, the problem is Uber. The problem is a society that's OK with waiters/waitresses getting paid sh*t-all for their work, and being at the mercy of "tips" to make a proper living. The problem is with a society that thinks it's OK for restaurants to basically evade paying taxes on the total compensation of their employees. Instead of being a job with dignity, the waiter/waitress has to kiss every customer's ass in the hopes that they get a decent tip.

The point is not about "a few bucks to a driver" LOL. That's hilarious. The point is about the MILLIONS and BILLIONS of "bucks" to the driver and the waitress and the others that go untaxed. The point is about the MILLIONS and BILLIONS of "bucks" that the customer is forced to pay the employee as opposed to the employer. As a customer it's my job to pay for the SERVICE or the PRODUCT, not to directly pay the WAGES of the employee (as one does with tipping, basically). When you buy a set of tires for your car, I guess you also add in a tip for the mechanic and the trucker who moved the tires and also the employees at the tire factory that made the tires right?


Given your reaction, you must tip everyone. The mailman, the trash guys, the Best Buy employee, the cashier at Target, the painter, the roofer, and the mechanic. Right? I mean someone who doesn't tip is just a scumbag of a human being. A low-balling, pompous individual right.

Literally the only thing that came to my mind while reading that egregious, masochistic rant:

e31.jpg


I do give you kudos for a debate full of typographical emphasis, and for the seemingly significant chunk of personal time removed from your day to do so. For that, I thank you.
 
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Uber tried to drive taxis out of business by undercutting them on price. I guess now we know that business model isn't sustainable.

Basically, If Uber can't afford to pay their drivers more and the service is not making money, the service can not continue in it's current form. That is how capitalism works.

Taxis are heavily regulated in most places for a reason. Why is Uber not subjected to the same regulations?
This is the most brilliant comment I have ever read on the Internet. You win.
[doublepost=1499538757][/doublepost]
I already did, but I will post them again:

"If you don't want to tip, then it doesn't matter."

and

"I've driven for Uber before. It's barely even worth it with tips. [in reference to tips as above] It absolutely isn't worth it without."

Saying it does not matter to give a Tip and then saying you will not work without Tips, is clearly two conflicting points of view.

No?
One was from the POV of a rider, the other from that of a driver. No agreement necessary.
[doublepost=1499539000][/doublepost]
Literally the only thing that came to my mind while reading that egregious, masochistic rant:

e31.jpg


I do give you kudos for a debate full of typographical emphasis, and for the seemingly significant chunk of personal time removed from your day to do so. For that, I thank you.
Call a cheapskate out and that is what you usually get.
 
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I already did, but I will post them again:

"If you don't want to tip, then it doesn't matter."

and

"I've driven for Uber before. It's barely even worth it with tips. [in reference to tips as above] It absolutely isn't worth it without."

Saying it does not matter to give a Tip and then saying you will not work without Tips, is clearly two conflicting points of view.

No?
If you don’t want to tip, it doesn’t matter for the RIDER. Allowing tips makes it worth the trouble for the DRIVER.

It isn’t contradictory at all. My point is that it helps drivers and there’s no reason for riders to complain when it’s business as usual if they want it to be.
 
No one has required you to look at the app, put a gun to your head, and required you tip. If you'd rather not think about it, don't. But don't be a drama queen going on about how this has made the user experience so much worse when it's not an experience in any way required of the users.

Are you familiar with the concept of social pressure or peer pressure?

Do you think it has no effect?

If I don't tip, I feel bad about myself, because others are tipping and I don't.

Also, drivers may rate me worse as a passenger, and it'll take me longer or make it harder to find a ride next time.
 
Are you familiar with the concept of social pressure or peer pressure?

Do you think it has no effect?

If I don't tip, I feel bad about myself, because others are tipping and I don't.

Also, drivers may rate me worse as a passenger, and it'll take me longer or make it harder to find a ride next time.

Am I the only one that is reminded of the Black Mirror - Nosedive episode? :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive
 
Are you familiar with the concept of social pressure or peer pressure?

Do you think it has no effect?

If I don't tip, I feel bad about myself, because others are tipping and I don't.

Also, drivers may rate me worse as a passenger, and it'll take me longer or make it harder to find a ride next time.

Drivers never see who tips them and who doesn't, so they can't rate you differently because of it. They get their tips at the end of each week and have no indiction who they came from.
 
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Drivers never see who tips them and who doesn't, so they can't rate you differently because of it. They get their tips at the end of each week and have no indiction who they came from.
Thanks, that's useful information that I didn't know. If it's done that way, it makes things better.
 
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