UK/London: 24 Hour Tube Strike Starting June 9th

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Have you experienced Japanese, Swiss, Austrian, Scandinavian public transport?

If you have then I suspect you would not have held London so highly.

Yes. London is an order of magnitude or two better...by far.


As to unions: I think we all owe them a great many things when it comes to things like wages and work regulation and safety legislation, and even if I'm not in any union and probably won't ever be I still like them around...

But I also think they've mostly developed into greedy b****** which resort to strikes very quickly and lightly over mostly petty issues nowadays. </rant>

 

[Fizzoid]

As to unions: I think we all owe them a great many things when it comes to things like wages and work regulation and safety legislation,

Don't forget the death of the British car industry too!

 

[Jaffa Cake]

When unemployment is still rising, people are losing their homes, YOU think that the underground staff and unions have a right to this sort of pay increase.

I made no mention of my thoughts about the Tube worker's demands, or whether or not I think they're entitled to this increase. What I object to is the notion that it's acceptable for people to lose their jobs in order to set an example to their colleagues of what will happen if they step out of line.

How are we to decide who will make up the 20% sacked, then – a ballot perhaps or shall we just get shut of the ones who look like they might cause the most trouble?

 

[Fizzoid]

How are we to decide who will make up the 20% sacked, then – a ballot perhaps or shall we just get shut of the ones who look like they might cause the most trouble?

Maybe fire all the women, as we're being discriminatory

 

[Mitthrawnuruodo]

Don't forget the death of the British car industry too!

Well, if you look at the US car industry (and you could toss in the financial sector) now, then you can see that greed will kill any industry, no matter who becomes greedy...

Just to make it clear: I support the right to strike, but think it should be reserved for when you really, really need it. Not just for some relatively well paid groups getting slightly better wages. Unions (and employees) using that tactic lightly should get punished for it (and - ultimately - loose their jobs). Just as greedy leaders awarding themselves HUGE bonuses and owners bleeding a company dry should be fined/taxed heavily.

 

[Blue Velvet]

So, in short, it's not absurd in the slightest.

I had a long and involved answer typed up for this... and then the phone rang, and I got tied up with a client, as it were. Coming back, I'm logged out and all my clever work had disappeared.

Just because you haven't seen any of it, doesn't make it true. Training to be a tube driver takes four months and takes in number of things including first aid as well as mechanics. They do shifts around a seven day clock when all of us are out having fun, and face considerable health and safety problems with their working conditions. In the light of all that, £38k is a fair London wage, in my view.

Anyway, the gist of it was that those operating any ATO trains will still be members of either the RMT or a number of other unions that support other staff members of the tube. There are also substantial political hurdles to be faced the instant something goes wrong with these trains and people are affected, hundreds of feet underground.

I'm with Jaffa on this one, in that I haven't really commented on their demands, knowing full well that the threat of industrial action is a negotiating tool, and that they have the legal right to strike which I support. Let's see how ACAS and the Mayor handle it.

I refuse to get stressed about — they've been going on for decades — or to automatically start union-bashing because, from experience, it's easy to mock unions when you've never needed one. The seemingly reflexive and deferential urge to automatically side with the claims of London Underground management or posturing political figures isn't my kind of thing, as you can probably guess.

 

[Sesshi]

Unions do a hell of a lot more than people realise. Imagine if there weren't any unions at all. You'd be paid sod all, get sod all leave, sacked for being sick etc...

If you weren't a useless bunch of ******* you wouldn't be paid sod all, get sod all leave, sacked for being sick. There are (and can be more) employment laws for dealing with grossly unfair practices. The rest doesn't need a union.

 

[Abstract]

Yes. London is an order of magnitude or two better...by far.

I made no mention of my thoughts about the Tube worker's demands, or whether or not I think they're entitled to this increase. What I object to is the notion that it's acceptable for people to lose their jobs in order to set an example to their colleagues of what will happen if they step out of line.

Wow, I didn't think anyone took what he said seriously.


Anyway, you can't hire people to completely replace workers that choose to strike. You may not agree with the LU's reason for striking, but doing another wrong doesn't really fix things.

Well, it is good, in that it exists. Beyond that I can't think of too many positives.

Over crowded. Over priced. Too temperamental (ZOMG Signal Failure!). It's too hot to function. It's too cold to function. blah...

Have you ever been outside of London? Most cities aren't nearly as good.

 

[Peterkro]

This thread brought to mind a old Lennon lyric "your all so clever and classless and free,but you still look like f*cking peasants to me"

(obviously there are at least two posters I'm not referring to in my possibly bannable criticism).

 

[eastercat]

I'm going to Europe in about 4 weeks and London is one of my destinations. All things considered, those tube workers are vital and worth the money they're making. They're certainly worth more than those Parliament members who are fleecing the government.
You can say London's transportation system is useless, but you haven't seen diddly. Come to Dallas, TX if you want useless. Unless you want to go downtown, the train hardly takes you anywhere. Also, the bus system takes forever to get you where you need to go--assuming it'll take you there in the first place.
Unions are important. They're the only group that cares about the rights of the worker. You certainly can't expect corporations, who ship every job they can overseas, to care about or listen to their workers. The corporations that do are the exception to the rule. In these economic times, corporations would rather fire more workers than cut the pay of their poorly performing CEO. I would love to be able to join a union, but my job (and state) doesn't allow that.

 

[UltraNEO*]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8071423.stm

I imagine this will devolve into some sort of discussion about whether they are right to strike or not. Personally I think it's totally outrageous that they are striking and that their "demands" are laughable. They are already vastly overpaid as it is.

Baaaah. This is what happens when we have a Labour governement in power, everything that was once good, turns to crap!! Seriously, everything in the UK cost more and we get less in turns of service. I think the laws need to be changed... Changed in a way, so people who take part in industrial action should receive a pay cut. I wonder how many would actually strike then?

Honestly, dunno why we should pay them more. They don't run on time, in fact they never run on time, quality of service is less than satisfactory and the cost is way toooo f'in high. Have you experience public transport in Japan? It's never late and they offer the ultimate in customer service!! Why can't britian learn something from this? Even in Hong Kong, the service is by far superior tot he UK.

Anyway strike as much as you like. I'm outta hear in eight days. Back to beautiful Japan!

 

[Eraserhead]

Why, because you think its reasonable that they demand inflation + 0.5% pay increase for the next 5 years

Are you going to source this as yet unsubstantiated point, or am I going to need to call you on it a third time?

Yes. London is an order of magnitude or two better...by far.

Aside from how often the lines seem to be shut for maintenance and the shiteness of the Circle line, I'd say the London underground is pretty good. Santiago's and Singapore's systems are better IMO as is the Japanese.

The Chinese (Beijing, Shanghai) and Russian (Moscow, St Petersburg) systems are pretty good but the stations are too far apart (and too deep in the latter case).

Baaaah. This is what happens when we have a Labour governement in power, everything that was once good, turns to crap!! Seriously, everything in the UK cost more and we get less in turns of service. I think the laws need to be changed... Changed in a way, so people who take part in industrial action should receive a pay cut. I wonder how many would actually strike then?

And then you'd find everyone was very poorly paid.

They don't run on time, in fact they never run on time, quality of service is less than satisfactory and the cost is way toooo f'in high. Have you experience public transport in Japan? It's never late and they offer the ultimate in customer service!! Why can't britian learn something from this? Even in Hong Kong, the service is by far superior tot he UK.

OK, so the list should be extended to Singapore, Hong Kong, Santiago and Japan, and maybe Beijing (it has closer stations than Shanghai), Berlin and Paris. Britain is still probably in the top 20 worldwide, which is about where we should be given how rich we are.

 

[Abstract]

I love how you're comparing cities to countries in some cases. Japan's is good, but mostly in a handful of cities. I like Hong Kong's the best, but HK is actually a very small city, although not nearly as small as Singapore. Once you leave HK proper and go to places like Sai Kung (which isn't very far from Kowloon), it's not that convenient.

China's is also very good, although the coverage in some cities is poor, so buses are still a huge necessity in these places, even if they are slow.


Lets give London some credit. It's both massive AND complex, with a complex underground system due to the age of the city. Circle line sucks, and District Line is really ghetto, but some lines (Northern Line) are pretty good, and it spans a massive area.

 

[steviem]

I just came back from a week in the USA, 4 days in NYC 3 in Manchester, Vermont and have to say that both Metro-North and the Subway are both better than National Rail and the London Underground. It costs $25 for 1 week unlimited travel on the Subway and Buses, there are no zones, just the flat $25 weekly rate. The trains are larger (you can easily fit 2 people abreast in the gap between the seats), the trains have air conditioning and the system runs 24 hours a day, there is a tiny gap between the train and the platform and the train and platform are at the same heights.

It's fairly clean (not as clean as the underground) and the lines take a little getting used to in terms of navigating yourself through the city. Some areas, you feel a little less safe than usual, like some parts of Queens and Brooklyn but I get the feeling I would end up feeling the same ratio of safety:alertness as I do on the underground.

There are express trains and local trains, but this is because the planners had the foresight to consider this when building the system and we wouldn't be able to get this on the underground (except for the Metropolitan line which has fast and semi-fast trains).

All in all, my experience with the MTA makes me feel incredibly short changed as a London Underground passenger. I feel like the passengers should strike one day.

 

[Eraserhead]

^^ And there are no stop announcements, the map is hideously complex, the trains are very noisy, uncomfortable and dirty, they are all about 50 years old (except the green line), most of the trains don't even have line maps and there are no displays on the platform telling you when the trains are going to come. Also when they do maintenance they do they equivalent of running the Central line trains in one direction on the district line and in the other direction as usual on the central line through the centre of the city to confuse everyone.

Now the express trains are great, that was a good idea when they built it, and the price is great too for the distance you can go, but that's because the New York taxpayer is paying for 2/3 of the costs of running it. It is also very safe, even at 3am.

EDIT: To turn the beginning rant into something productive: The customer presentation side of the New York metro is really poor - one of the worst in the world.

 

[remmy]

I remember some where (think Paris?) when the tube workers went on strike they just didnt charge passengers for travel, they ran a normal service but everyone travelled for free. Then the tube workers would be seen allot more positive.

 

[Eraserhead]

I remember some where (think Paris?) when the tube workers went on strike they just didnt charge passengers for travel, they ran a normal service but everyone travelled for free. Then the tube workers would be seen allot more positive.

Now that is a great idea!

 

[BlizzardBomb]

Baaaah. This is what happens when we have a Labour governement in power, everything that was once good, turns to crap!! Seriously, everything in the UK cost more and we get less in turns of service.

Wow, isn't that a sweeping statement. So much for one of the lowest VAT rates in Europe.

 

[Rodimus Prime]

I remember some where (think Paris?) when the tube workers went on strike they just didnt charge passengers for travel, they ran a normal service but everyone travelled for free. Then the tube workers would be seen allot more positive.

lol. that makes me think of something I heard that the Houston police did when they were having a labor dispute. Since legally the police can not go on strike their response was not to write speeding tickets. I believe it was a matter of a few days and it cost the city 2-3 million dollars in loss revenues. shortly to say the police union got what it wanted.

 

[Saturnine]

Like many others - I got my pay froze this year and I'm already underpaid by £5k-£10k. If the jobs market wasn't so volatile I'd be looking elsewhere.

Now, will Boris Johnson waive the congestion charge for the day?

 

[iBlue]

Lets give London some credit. It's both massive AND complex, with a complex underground system due to the age of the city. Circle line sucks, and District Line is really ghetto, but some lines (Northern Line) are pretty good, and it spans a massive area.

London is not massive or THAT complex. Comparatively to other major world cities, London is tiny. The tube's age can be a pain because it's always in need of repair, but I can't help but think it could be better than it is given the time and money that is put into it.

And the district line isn't ghetto. It's probably (I'm guessing) the lengthiest of all the lines, going from edges of essex, through central london and all the way to surrey. Also, like most of the other lines, it's been refurbished a bit. None of those wood floors like it probably had when you were last here.

 

[Peterkro]

London is not massive or THAT complex. Comparatively to other major world cities, London is tiny. The tube's age can be a pain because it's always in need of repair, but I can't help but think it could be better than it is given the time and money that is put into it.

And the district line isn't ghetto. It's probably (I'm guessing) the lengthiest of all the lines, going from edges of essex, through central london and all the way to surrey. Also, like most of the other lines, it's been refurbished a bit. None of those wood floors like it probably had when you were last here.

In terms of length of track and passenger journeys the tube is the largest in the world. London is not geographically large in the way that Auckland,Sydney,Los Angeles or Tehran are (urban sprawl ) but in terms of traditional cities Paris,Rome,New York,Moscow etc it is pretty large I've lived in it 30 odd years and parts of it I've never been to. Of course many cities in China are much larger.

 

[iBlue]

In terms of length of track and passenger journeys the tube is the largest in the world. London is not geographically large in the way that Auckland,Sydney,Los Angeles or Tehran are (urban sprawl ) but in terms of traditional cities Paris,Rome,New York,Moscow etc it is pretty large I've lived in it 30 odd years and parts of it I've never been to. Of course many cities in China are much larger.

Really? Well I suppose I was thinking of it from a geographical footprint comparison standpoint. Good to know.

Do you have a link, just for my curiosity's sake?

 

[Peterkro]

Really? Well I suppose I was thinking of it from a geographical footprint comparison standpoint. Good to know.

Do you have a link, just for my curiosity's sake?

Whoops my bad.It appears from further reading Tokyo,Paris and Moscow and probably others have much higher passenger journeys:

http://www.virgin-vacations.com/site_vv/11-top-underground-transit-systems-in-the-world.asp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Underground


It appears London rates ninth in fact:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_systems_by_annual_passenger_rides

although if you read note 5 on the above page total journeys in London go up to 2.9 billion.


note 1:For total rail transit ridership, including metro JR lines and private railway systems, Greater Tokyo (130 lines) and Greater Osaka (70 lines) transport far more daily passengers than anywhere else on earth.

 

[iBlue]

^

Thanks for the links/info. London's rail network is still impressive, and for the most part I think it works pretty well, if a bit finicky/delicate.
I just wish the workers didn't feel the need to strike so frequently, and over things which aren't even very unreasonable in a recession.