UK Statutory Rights - antenna issue

[monkeyson]

What can UK owners do about this issue regarding their statutory rights?

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/consumer_advice/consumer_law_sale_of_goods_emp.shtml -

The Sale of Goods Act lays down several conditions that all goods sold by a trader must meet.

The goods must be:

as described

of satisfactory quality

fit for purpose

As described refers to any advert or verbal description made by the trader.

Satisfactory quality covers minor and cosmetic defects as well as substantial problems. It also means that products must last a reasonable time. But it doesn't give you any rights if a fault was obvious or pointed out to you at point of sale.

Fit for purpose covers not only the obvious purpose of an item but any purpose you queried and were given assurances about by the trader.

If you buy something which doesn't meet these conditions, you have the potential right to return it, get a full refund, and if it will cost you more to buy similar goods elsewhere, compensation (to cover the extra cost) too.

Note, however, that the right to reject goods and get a full refund only lasts for a relatively short time after which a buyer is deemed to have 'accepted' goods. This doesn't mean that the buyer has no legal redress against the seller, just that he/she isn't entitled to a full refund.

Instead a buyer is first and foremost entitled to have the goods repaired or replaced. If these remedies are inappropriate, then you're entitled to a suitable price reduction, or to return the goods and get a refund (reduced to take account of any wear and tear).

And from http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/SGAknowyourrights/

You, as the consumer, have the option of which solution you would like, however you must not require the trader to repair or replace the goods if this would be too costly, as compared to another remedy.

Any remedy that is carried out by the trader must be carried to be within a reasonable time for the consumer and without causing significant inconvenience.

It is the retailer's responsibility, not the manufacturer's, so if you bought from an O2 store they are responsible.

I would argue that not being able to hold a phone in a common and natural way means that it is not fit for purpose.

Now, they can't replace the phone because there aren't any in stock and they all have the problem. But you may be entitled to a full refund (and contract cancellation) or a remedy (e.g. a bumper case).

 

[ninethirty]

You can't actually be serious, are you?

When I hold my phone in the way that everyone is saying causes signal loss, I lose at best, 2 bars. Phone calls still work, data works, etc. It's already been demonstrated that this is an issue on previous generation iPhones, and also on mobile phones made by other manufacturers. People LOVE to stir drama when any new product comes out.

Steve Jobs can be a real prick at times over email, but in this case, I have to agree with him. It's a non issue.

 

[andybno1]

Steve Jobs can be a real prick at times over email, but in this case, I have to agree with him. It's a non issue.

so for all the people having dropped calls and can replicate it and get no service its a non issue?

 

[glanv]

What can UK owners do about this issue regarding their statutory rights?

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/consumer_advice/consumer_law_sale_of_goods_emp.shtml -



And from http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/after_you_buy/know-your-rights/SGAknowyourrights/



It is the retailer's responsibility, not the manufacturer's, so if you bought from an O2 store they are responsible.

I would argue that not being able to hold a phone in a common and natural way means that it is not fit for purpose.

Now, they can't replace the phone because there aren't any in stock and they all have the problem. But you may be entitled to a full refund (and contract cancellation) or a remedy (e.g. a bumper case).

I would say that you are correct in that this issue is covered by the fit for purpose part of SoGA. Although there isn't any available stock, Apple normally have stock held back for replacements. If one has bought the phone from Apple they are both manufacturer and retailer, with the first line of recourse being with the retailer (as you state). However, if one has got from a carrier with a new contract the case becomes a a little blurry - the carrier is the retailer of the phone (which is where the fault is) but is also the retailer for the cellular service (which doesn't have a fault). My advice is to go straight to Apple as the carrier will probably say the same. However, one could take advantage of the cooling off period and return the phone and cancel the contract (not sure if phone has to be unopened though).

 

[matrix07]

Now, they can't replace the phone because there aren't any in stock and they all have the problem. But you may be entitled to a full refund (and contract cancellation) or a remedy (e.g. a bumper case).

How do you know ALL have problem?

 

[sananda]

I would argue that not being able to hold a phone in a common and natural way means that it is not fit for purpose.

Is this theoretical? Or are you having having difficulties making and receiving phone calls?

 

[tallyho]

You can't actually be serious, are you?

When I hold my phone in the way that everyone is saying causes signal loss, I lose at best, 2 bars. Phone calls still work, data works, etc. It's already been demonstrated that this is an issue on previous generation iPhones, and also on mobile phones made by other manufacturers. People LOVE to stir drama when any new product comes out.

Steve Jobs can be a real prick at times over email, but in this case, I have to agree with him. It's a non issue.

It's not really an over reaction. I could hold my old iPhone 3G fine, but holding my new iPhone 4 in exactly the same way results in No Service, which is not just an issue to do with bars being reported by the display but means that my call is disconnected, or data stops being downloaded when browsing the web. This happens every time. Ideas?

 

[sananda]

It's not really an over reaction. I could hold my old iPhone 3G fine, but holding my new iPhone 4 in exactly the same way results in No Service, which is not just an issue to do with bars being reported by the display but means that my call is disconnected, or data stops being downloaded when browsing the web. This happens every time. Ideas?

Get a refund.

 

[matrix07]

Ideas?

Have you tried replace it?

 

[ctt1wbw]

You people kill me. This isn't a Toyota electrical or braking issue, which might be potentially hazardous. This is a cell phone. I wasn't aware that anyone had statutory rights because a product, which is not life threatening, didn't live up to your expectations.

 

[ninethirty]

A few, sure.

I have an iPhone 4, which I bought in the UK and I'm using it here in the Netherlands, with Vodafone. I cannot replicate this problem at all. If I hold it TIGHT at the spot where people are claiming this issue arises, I lose a bar or two, after a minute of holding it that way. Last night, I tried the same thing on my 3GS and had exactly the same thing happen.

So.. what's the problem? It's got to be one of three things (obviously).

A) Either it's a software issue with iPhone OS 4, which will be corrected quickly.

B) It's an issue with bad network performance (I've lived in the US and I know how bad AT&T is). In that case, it sucks if you live in the US and have a locked phone tied to one carrier.

C) SOME of the new iPhone 4's are duds, and will need to be returned.

All I'm saying is that this uproar and outrage might be a tad much at this point. Wait and see if Apple says anything next week, or how people in other countries react on different networks, and in general to see if this is a problem that everyone experiences, or just some.

It's not really an over reaction. I could hold my old iPhone 3G fine, but holding my new iPhone 4 in exactly the same way results in No Service, which is not just an issue to do with bars being reported by the display but means that my call is disconnected, or data stops being downloaded when browsing the web. This happens every time. Ideas?

 

[sananda]

You people kill me. This isn't a Toyota electrical or braking issue, which might be potentially hazardous. This is a cell phone. I wasn't aware that anyone had statutory rights because a product, which is not life threatening, didn't live up to your expectations.

Yeah, we have fairly comprehensive consumer laws in the UK.

 

[NightFox]

The problem with consumer law is the basics are easy to get your head round so are frequently quoted on the Internet by people who don't know the intricacies of the relevant legislation; it's not always the clear-cut case that armchair lawyers say it is. In other words, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

People quote various sections of the Sale of Goods Act for example with ignorance of the other sections which often cover all sorts of variations and exceptions.

Yes, there is clearly an issue here but with complex issues such as design flaws which are still subjective in the absence of any admission from Apple, the legal situation can not really be covered by a 'Watchdog' level of consumer law.

 

[ctt1wbw]

Yeah, we have fairly comprehensive consumer laws in the UK.

So does the Nanny State let you sue of you have to reinstall Windows 7 because it keeps crashing? I had to that after just one month. So where's MY statutory rights?

 

[sananda]

The problem with consumer law is the basics are easy to get your head round and are frequently quoted on the Internet by peole who don't know the intricacies of the relevant legislation; it's not always the clear-cut case that armchair lawyers say it is. In other words, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing!

People quote various sections of the Sale of Goods Act for example with ignorance of the other sections which often cover all sorts of variations and exceptions.

Yes, there is clearly an issue here but with complex issues such as design flaws which are still subjective in the absence of any admission from Apple, the legal situation can not really be covered by a 'Watchdog' level of consumer law.

If people are genuinely having difficulty making and receiving calls then the law really is a simple as set out above.

 

[sananda]

So does the Nanny State let you sue of you have to reinstall Windows 7 because it keeps crashing? I had to that after just one month. So where's MY statutory rights?

I guess you'd have to relocate!!

 

[tallyho]

So does the Nanny State let you sue of you have to reinstall Windows 7 because it keeps crashing? I had to that after just one month. So where's MY statutory rights?

Ask your government? Not quite sure why you're getting so upset about a thread for people in the UK. Calm down

 

[Gryzor]

Yes, there is clearly an issue here but with complex issues such as design flaws which are still subjective in the absence of any admission from Apple, the legal situation can not really be covered by a 'Watchdog' level of consumer law.

Yes, it can. If you buy a phone, and you hold it as you held your previous phone, and it drops calls as a result, it is not fit for purpose. Simple as that.

All I see on here (like most forums) are people with genuine issues getting stupid comments thrown back at them from people who either don't have a problem with their phone, or do but are not bothered.

Grow up.

 

[niuniu]

You people kill me. This isn't a Toyota electrical or braking issue, which might be potentially hazardous. This is a cell phone. I wasn't aware that anyone had statutory rights because a product, which is not life threatening, didn't live up to your expectations.

Lay off the drugs. Defective doesn't mean life threatening

 

[ReflexReact]

What about our rights in the uk to get not only a refund on the phone, but our expensive 18/24month contracts cancelled?

 

[NightFox]

If people are genuinely having difficulty making and receiving calls then the law really is a simple as set out above.

Not really - if we're talking about "fit for purpose" then the fact is that I CAN make calls on my iPhone 4 - that's the purpose of my phone. I agree it doesn't work if I hold it in a certain way, but that's where the legal argument would come in, basically can you make calls on this phone or not? Is it reasonable to ask people to only hold it in a certain way? Don't get me wrong, I agree that this is a major cock-up by Apple and I'm not saying we don't have any legal remedy here, but it's probably going to be more complex than the SOGA basics.

Besides, most people who have just bought iPhones will be covered by a cooling-off period anyway, and I think even those who purchased in store are being allowed to return without any issues.

 

[Holty123]

You can't actually be serious, are you?

When I hold my phone in the way that everyone is saying causes signal loss, I lose at best, 2 bars. Phone calls still work, data works, etc. It's already been demonstrated that this is an issue on previous generation iPhones, and also on mobile phones made by other manufacturers. People LOVE to stir drama when any new product comes out.

Steve Jobs can be a real prick at times over email, but in this case, I have to agree with him. It's a non issue.

Well said my sentiments exactly, when phones had the antenna sticking out of the top of the phone did people complain that if they put their hand over it you lost signal? just don't put your finger over it

 

[Stiss]

This is just getting ridiculous.

I work in technology after sales for a major UK department store so I get this kind of tosh thrown at me day in day out and you Sir, are a joke.

It's simple, if you don't want the phone just take it back. Your statutory rights are not effected as you can legally cancel a mobile phone contract within 14 days I think. So o2 would be more than happy to take it off your hands.

Fit for purpose is where something is generally not fit for purpose. The iPhone works as a phone, therefore it's fit for the purpose it was sold to do. Just because people are purposefully making youtube video's of them deliberately blocking the signal doesn't make it unfit for purpose.

As the second poster points out this happens with other iPhones. It happens with my GF's BlackBerry and it happens/ed with the Nexus One before they released new software. Hell Nokia even post a warning in some of there user manuals reminding you not to block a certain area of the phone or you will decrease signal strength.

Don't blame Apple, or a retailer. This is caused by the FCC. They stipulate the antenna in a mobile handset must be as far from the head when in use as possible. Apple could only place it on the bottom of the phone, they have done nothing wrong.

I'm sure people just think because this has a 'i' in the name and it's made by Apple it should be able to defy facts of life and engineering and technology. Get real, it won't happen!

Like I said. Unhappy with the phone? Return it and move on with your life and stop talking all this tosh acting like your owed something. I will have a great time with my iPhone 4, not trying to make a issue out of nothing. Not making a issue out of something that has effected cell phones form DAY ONE!

 

[Holty123]

It's not really an over reaction. I could hold my old iPhone 3G fine, but holding my new iPhone 4 in exactly the same way results in No Service, which is not just an issue to do with bars being reported by the display but means that my call is disconnected, or data stops being downloaded when browsing the web. This happens every time. Ideas?

yea move your finger out the way!

 

[NightFox]

Yes, it can. If you buy a phone, and you hold it as you held your previous phone, and it drops calls as a result, it is not fit for purpose. Simple as that.

All I see on here (like most forums) are people with genuine issues getting stupid comments thrown back at them from people who either don't have a problem with their phone, or do but are not bothered.

Grow up.

Using my wife's £40 Nokia I can get a O2 signal in our back room. With my iPhone 3GS I can't. Does that means my 3GS was unfit for purpose?

Really, I'm not throwing this back in anyone's face. I also have a brand new phone that doesn't work and I expect Apple to do something about it. I'm just pointing out that the actual legal situation isn't just as basic as people are saying. That's why companies spend millions of dollars hiring legal experts. So why tell me to grow up?