UK to Use Apple-Google API in NHS Contact Tracing App

[simonmet]

If people follow the social distancing and movement restriction guidelines, this app shouldn’t find any contacts. So what’s the point? To identify and highlight that someone did something wrong?

Contact tracing is one of the weakest forms of disease control. Perhaps the very weakest and of very limited effectiveness in my opinion. Fair enough if it’s something like a sexual partner, but this is about tracking people you’ve been near.

 

[FrankieTDouglas]

If people follow the social distancing and movement restriction guidelines, this app shouldn’t find any contacts. So what’s the point? To identify and highlight that someone did something wrong?

Control.

 

[now i see it]

"In the last three days, you've been in close contact with four people who now have COVID-19. Please take necessary precautions"

The ultimate paranoia app

 

[JonaM]

Surprised this topic wasn't put under the 'Politics heading' given how rapidly it has headed off-topic ( can't remember who said that all online discussions always end up with someone being compared to a Nazi and I was impressed that we got post 22 I think before that happened)

Anyway - I haven't been able to find full details on the API, but the ID changing every 15 minutes and being stored on your device until such time as you identify as having tested positive seem to be well designed and have a good privacy focus. This seems very similar to the Apple Find Devices architecture that was designed to be privacy preserving.
If the data isn't uploaded or identified until you report then it would be a voluntary system.
The interesting part for me will be when it is baked into the OS how Apple and Google enforce suitable governmental control of that data according to privacy standards, especially when users are travelling

 

[simonmet]

Surprised this topic wasn't put under the 'Politics heading' given how rapidly it has headed off-topic ( can't remember who said that all online discussions always end up with someone being compared to a Nazi and I was impressed that we got post 22 I think before that happened)

Anyway - I haven't been able to find full details on the API, but the ID changing every 15 minutes and being stored on your device until such time as you identify as having tested positive seem to be well designed and have a good privacy focus. This seems very similar to the Apple Find Devices architecture that was designed to be privacy preserving.
If the data isn't uploaded or identified until you report then it would be a voluntary system.
The interesting part for me will be when it is baked into the OS how Apple and Google enforce suitable governmental control of that data according to privacy standards, especially when users are travelling

The changing identifier would simply prevent other individuals or apps from tracking you, but not the service provider (or OS if it becomes an OS-level feature) because that history needs to be reconstructed for the service to work!

How has it headed off-topic?

 

[truthertech]

Contact tracing is, by its very nature, highly invasive. But it's highly necessary right now. Without using technology like this, less efficient 'old style' contact tracing will happen anyway - and that data will sit on the same servers as this data will. So really don't think you've got much to lose by opting in.

Indeed , you have spoken wisely. All of us, and the government need to be notified when a dangerous person has contact with you or has been close to you, whether that person is infected with virus like corona, or a bad idea, like opposition to the government. If someone goes to a protest, for example, the rest of us should know that this person is a threat, and it would be important if everyone could be alerted if that person tried to apply for work with your company, or their children wanted to play with your children.

The government needs to track all of us for whatever threats they think we might pose, but under this program you should be able to customize your alerts so you can be notified as to the type of people you think pose the greatest danger to you, your community, etc. Maybe if someone drives in your neighborhood who has a criminal record, an alert would go off in everyone's house, or if they are a gun owner, etc.

China thinks they are ahead of us to track their citizens, but we shall use our great technology to overcome their lead in this area. Finally, we will be able to identify, track and isolate those people who are threats to others.

*Also, it's going to be important to be able to send in alerts to the government if you identify anyone you think may be a threat. What if you see someone who is coughing and maybe hasn't reported their status to the government? Or they recently moved into your neighborhood and look suspicious, the government should follow up and check them out.

 

[anthogag]

This app should also include tracking the seasonal flu. According to one doctor in a news article, COVID-19 pandemic social distancing has significantly reduced seasonal flu cases.

 

[Rigby]

I’d personally prefer a more intrusive way of monitoring with cameras, using a weaker China system. For example, using AI and face identification, too many times a crime has been committed where only a partial face can be seen on a camera. Using AI and face identification would be easier, cheaper and faster for police to produce an accurate report, while also being a deterrent for individuals.

Yes. And we need to fight domestic crime as well and be aware of any suspicious activities. Many TVs already have a camera and microphone. We should just open them up so the government can access them anytime they want. We could call them "telescreens".

 

[ChromeCrescendo]

Surprised this topic wasn't put under the 'Politics heading' given how rapidly it has headed off-topic ( can't remember who said that all online discussions always end up with someone being compared to a Nazi and I was impressed that we got post 22 I think before that happened)

Godwin's Law

 

[LondonChris]

Indeed , you have spoken wisely. All of us, and the government need to be notified when a dangerous person has contact with you or has been close to you, whether that person is infected with virus like corona, or a bad idea, like opposition to the government. If someone goes to a protest, for example, the rest of us should know that this person is a threat, and it would be important if everyone could be alerted if that person tried to apply for work with your company, or their children wanted to play with your children.

The government needs to track all of us for whatever threats they think we might pose, but under this program you should be able to customize your alerts so you can be notified as to the type of people you think pose the greatest danger to you, your community, etc. Maybe if someone drives in your neighborhood who has a criminal record, an alert would go off in everyone's house, or if they are a gun owner, etc.

China thinks they are ahead of us to track their citizens, but we shall use our great technology to overcome their lead in this area. Finally, we will be able to identify, track and isolate those people who are threats to others.

*Also, it's going to be important to be able to send in alerts to the government if you identify anyone you think may be a threat. What if you see someone who is coughing and maybe hasn't reported their status to the government? Or they recently moved into your neighborhood and look suspicious, the government should follow up and check them out.

Contact tracing already happens for any notifiable disease. Has done for years. This is nothing new. But the scale of the pandemic and potential application of technology are. You can opt in, or you can remain opted out. As you should. And I've no doubt you'll make the most appropriate choice for you.

Couple of points though: if you wish to avoid telling 'the government' about a notifiable disease you've got and avoid being asked about who you've been in contact with, best not go to a doctor.

And if you think the state doesn't already know about that protest you went to or the 'undesirable' views your neighbour has, well, that ship has already sailed too, sorry to say.

Stay well!

 

[delta0]

If people follow the social distancing and movement restriction guidelines, this app shouldn’t find any contacts. So what’s the point? To identify and highlight that someone did something wrong?

Contact tracing is one of the weakest forms of disease control. Perhaps the very weakest and of very limited effectiveness in my opinion. Fair enough if it’s something like a sexual partner, but this is about tracking people you’ve been near.

It will be a great reminder for people when they do get alerts.

 

[Piggie]

If people follow the social distancing and movement restriction guidelines, this app shouldn’t find any contacts. So what’s the point? To identify and highlight that someone did something wrong?

Contact tracing is one of the weakest forms of disease control. Perhaps the very weakest and of very limited effectiveness in my opinion. Fair enough if it’s something like a sexual partner, but this is about tracking people you’ve been near.

No one in my workplace follows the 2m distance rules.
And if you look at the official rules, your boss does not HAVE to comply with this either, only if it's practical.
If your boss deems it impractical for you to keep your distance whilst you do the work he insists you do, then you have no choice.
That's the world "I" live in, in the UK, and going to work tomorrow as normal.

 

[Mitochris]

On the same topic:

NHS coronavirus app: memo discussed giving ministers power to 'de-anonymise' users

Exclusive: draft plans for contact-tracing app said device IDs could be used to identify users

www.theguardian.com

This,
i was going to post the same link. The thing is, I don’t trust the UK government at all on this. They will milk it as much as they can. For some reason they are surveillance mad on that island.

 

[JonaM]

The initial outline was that your device would upload the anonymous 15 minute changing identifiers it had seen during the period prior to you when you said that you had tested positive. The privacy detail is whether a central body (health body, government, etc) then takes these identifiers, de-anonymises them and contacts the users that were near the infected person or whether your device checks with a central server for the list of identifiers that were near an infected person and then alerts you on your device if it sees an identifier it had generated, without anyone other than you being aware that you were near them and who you are.
The model appears to allow for that data process, which does preserve individual privacy and avoids personal tracking.

 

[CarlJ]

Social distancing and lockdowns are already working; and most people are complying. I don’t see how this functionality would further change behaviour or prevent infections, but simply result in a blame game and the opportunity for authorities to penalise individuals.

Social distancing and lockdowns are, indeed, working, somewhat, in many places. So, as long as you're willing to have everyone remain in their homes until a vaccine is perfected in a year or two, we'll probably be okay.

But if we're going to be able to venture outside (much less back to work) before the end of 2021, then we need ways to very rapidly catch outbreaks quickly. Lockdowns and going back to work/school are mutually exclusive. Social distancing can't be enforced (unless/until you get to where every tenth person is a police officer). So your two suggestions don't help with getting things back to normal.

So, we need a solution (or several) for rapid and accurate identification of outbreaks/flareups. You're saying, "no, a technological solution is bad, can't do that"... but you're arguing this in a vacuum. If we don't do this, or some similar technological solution, what can you offer that will be equally or more effective, that is also realistic to implement (no magic or handwaving) and isn't even more draconian or invasive?

Yes, there are dangers in doing this (and it'll need lots of scrutiny to ensure it isn't abused). There are also dangers in any other course. The biggest danger is doing nothing and hoping for the best. That'll get a lot of people killed.

 

[Mitochris]

This app should also include tracking the seasonal flu. According to one doctor in a news article, COVID-19 pandemic social distancing has significantly reduced seasonal flu cases.

Indeed, and it has significantly reduced the winter-vomiting-bug. Which tells us something else too. The social distancing that is currently being performed clearly is working, which we would not know, if we would not have such indicators as the flu and WVB data. Increased hand washing, of course, also helps a lot.

 

[rgbrock1]

Exactly this. Meanwhile, there are people out there like those below, who show how easily some people willingly and eagerly give up their privacy. Almost using the standard script for every time some "emergency action" has to be taken against "some enemy" that leaves us with less and less freedom and privacy in the aftermath. This particular story pertains to the UK, which already has one of the most vast CCT networks in the world. How short of a reign do people want to be kept on? At least China had to run over their own citizens with tanks and seize it by force. Now, we have people applauding for such a regime.

"Exactly this. Meanwhile, there are people out there like those below, who show how easily some people willingly and eagerly give up their privacy."

 

[redneckitengineer]

I think it's time I switch to my backup dumb phone for the interim if these companies force this on to users. It should be optional, but once you open the door they won't want to shut it even after this all blows over.

 

[phalseHUD]

I think it's time I switch to my backup dumb phone for the interim if these companies force this on to users. It should be optional, but once you open the door they won't want to shut it even after this all blows over.

I agree... There’s absolutely no way I’d install this on my phone or any other device I own. I care about my health and the health of other people but I’m refusing to be a part of this sort of surveillance. What kind of dystopian state do we want to create here?

I’m living in the UK! A place that is supposed to be a free country, not a communist state like China where the government tracks every move of its citizens. I’m surprised Apple want to have any part of this!

If necessary, I’ll sell my phone and return to a dumb phone, or just ditch it completely. Been thinking of doing just this for a while.

 

[rjp1]

Why track people and inform them after they had been in contact with a corona infected person, when we can tag corona patients with a tag (maybe a corona star) on their jacket or maybe a tattoo corona-ID on the for-arm?

I’d rather be safe then sorry.

You inform people so they know there is a chance they have it. They can then quarantine themselves to prevent spreading it. If we don’t do this, then it is going to continually spread in more areas.

That is the safe not sorry approach. I have no idea what you are going on about tattoos for. Maybe you don’t realize you are already being tracking by the government. Unless you don’t have service on your phone, then they are already able to track where it goes. Tying in a way to notify us of exposure would benefit us, not hurt us.

 

[len5]

What's next? Making people wear a Scarlet letter on the chest....

Is funny how people are bending over backwards trusting the government(s) now and willing to give up their privacy rights, ect. I guess people make stupid decisions when they are scared and afraid and believing every word that the news media tells them. This will just be like the Patriot Act. It was supposed to be a temporary law during a crisis but is now permanent decades after it was enacted. Same thing will happen with all the things the government(s) want people to give up now. They say it will only be temporary but they will NEVER give it up and say it's for everyone's wellbeing.

 

[rjp1]

Yikes. I knew there would be a lot of conspiracy theory people that would refuse to use this. I didn’t expect to see so many on this forum.

I can’t wait for the day these people find out that their location can already be tracked when they have their phone connected.

This isn’t about taking away your rights, spying, or what they will do in the future. This is about controlling the current pandemic. If you are worried about the other things, then you should use it now so that you will all be alive to make sure it goes away in the future.

Sometimes you can’t save people from their own stupidity. Sadly, with this virus they can end up taking others with them.

 

[Futurix]

I didn’t expect to see so many on this forum.

There aren't many - they are just the loudest.

If I were in US, I'd take comfort in the fact that Apple is participating - they stuck it to US government many times before, so they will protect the users' privacy as needed.

However I'm in Germany, where government is generally trustworthy (I know, it's a situation impossible for Americans to imagine) and I'll install this app without much hesitation.

UK - well, Brits can be easily screwed by Tories. Not sure what I would have done if I still lived there - perhaps waited for an independent security analysis.

 

[Rigby]

This isn’t about taking away your rights, spying, or what they will do in the future.

This is incredibly naive. History teaches us that (1) surveillance systems will never be rescinded once they are in place, and (2) they will over time be used for more and more purposes unrelated to the original reason that was used to justify them. All of the invasive mass surveillance that was introduced almost 20 years ago in the aftermath of 9/11 is still in place (sometimes under a different name), and its use has been expanded and normalized greatly over time. In the UK, just look at the dozens of entities that will be able to help themselves to your Internet records with no real supervision under the snooper's charter.

 

[msp3]

As you would expect from bongistan. One step closer to 1984.

The saddest part is no totalitarian government needed, panic-stricken ill-informed cowards already begging to be oppressed by the police state