Understanding MBP Graphics - Iris Pro vs NVIDIA GT 750M

[zI INFINITY Iz]

Wow, some great info here. Thanks everyone that posted till now.

I'm pretty sure now that the Iris Pro is the way to go for me personally, since I rely on Solidworks a lot, and Phtoshop and InDesign seem to be wonderful on this iGPU as well.

Now the thing is, if you have the 750M as well, Windows (bootcamp) will always run in the 750M. Based on the fact (?) that the Iris Pro is 8% better at SW then even the GTX 780M, I would prefer Iris Pro to run obviously. So it seems I am one of the people that should actually avoid the dGPU.

But like priitv8 said, how will bootcamp handle an iGPU/Iris Pro only?

If only Solidworks was available for OS X.. would have made things easier, or at least different

 

[wheelhot]

I'm pretty sure now that the Iris Pro is the way to go for me personally, since I rely on Solidworks a lot, and Phtoshop and InDesign seem to be wonderful on this iGPU as well.

Now the thing is, if you have the 750M as well, Windows (bootcamp) will always run in the 750M. Based on the fact (?) that the Iris Pro is 8% better at SW then even the GTX 780M, I would prefer Iris Pro to run obviously. So it seems I am one of the people that should actually avoid the dGPU.

You're not the only one, I'll be using SolidEdge in Windows and the Iris Pro seem to work better when it comes to calculations. It's disappointing that upgrading the CPU, RAM and SSD will make it the same price as the higher end MBP with the Nvidia GPU. I wished it will be cheaper by USD300 or so for the omission of a discrete GPU.

Now, for those who have the 15" with Iris Pro and Nvidia, could you pls do a benchmark test for 3D rendering and video rendering as comparison between the Iris Pro GPU and Nvidia GPU. I'm curious to find out the performance difference since the Nvidia GPU comes with 2gb memory vs the more calculation optimized Iris Pro

 

[reery]

I think there is a 40-50% margin between the Iris Pro and the 750M in favor of the 750M.

There are no official benchmarks to date, but Apple already increased clocks of the 650M by 20% from default clock which every other manufacturer uses.

Therefore I got 15k in 3dmark06 where other laptops with the same GPU get around 12-13k. So if Iris Pro gets 13k, the 750M will be somewhere between 16-17k.

For gamers the 750M is definately worth it.

 

[wheelhot]

How about computational benchmark? Cause anandtech only benchmarked the regular 650, not the retina 650

 

[iKrivetko]

How about computational benchmark? Cause anandtech only benchmarked the regular 650, not the retina 650

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6993/intel-iris-pro-5200-graphics-review-core-i74950hq-tested/17

 

[smoking monkey]

Could someone also address the following question?

The lower-end 15" features the Iris Pro. The higher-end $2600 model features the NVIDIA card -- but does it have the Iris Pro AND the 750M?

It is listed on apple.com as:
- 512GB PCIe-based flash storage
- Intel Iris Pro Graphics

Some confusion here. Seems to me if Iris Pro is so much better for some apps, that the software would choose which system to use for the best result if both are included....?

I'm sure this has already been answered, but yes it has both the iGPU and dGPU. It does state it on the Apple site when you go and configure a machine.

Oh and OP, I got the 15 base upgraded with CPU and Ram @512 memory without the dGPU. I don't play games and do very little photoshop or music stuff. I also want my computer to run as cool, quiet and long as possible as I'm tired of having a scorching laptop with fans blazing.

 

[wheelhot]

Ah, my bad then. So anandtech used the rMBP 15in and that's the result! Wow, so I guess it's safe the assume that the 750 is not going to beat that score?

 

[aixki]

Hello people,

I'm planning to get the high-end rMBP 15" but I'm still wondering if instead I should go for the base model with 512ssd + 16 gb + upgraded i7.

Indeed, I don't care about gaming and 3d stuff. I just do photography (photoshop / lightroom), coding, and will use an external monitor for comfort. It sounds, according to the thread, that iris pro is the way to go for me, but I'm wondering how it will handle retina + external monitor (2560x1440)... Maybe it will be too laggy to support both these huge resolution and I should go for the nvidia 750 ?

If I could save power, heat and noise and keep my system responsive, I will definitely go with the base model upgraded.

P.S : sorry if there's a lot of typo here, I'm french and try to do my best to make myself clear

 

[dusk007]

As there seems to be some confusion in the subject. There is NO OPTIMUS on OSX. They use a different switching tech and it is almost guaranteed that both GPUs are never active at the same time. Optimus is a special software driver that Apple simply doesn't use. And in Windows you don't get to have it either. Maybe with some efi hacks.
What OpenCL as an API supports doesn't really help do anything if the hardware doesn't allow it or the driver doesn't expose the feature. OpenCL multi gpu support probably works on Desktop in which you throw any number of GPUs in.


Solidworks discussion. It might be worth mentioning that the miserable performance in that department is primarily a driver issue. The K2000/K1100 does very well in these (3x and 10x faster in some tests). I don't know which Apps that use those features people here actually use in OSX but the driver on the Geforce is probably crippled on purpose. How Apple's GPU drivers on the OSX side do in these tasks could be quite a bit different. It is virtually the same chip just a different firmware and driver. Nvidia wants you to buy the professional graphics solutions which are more expensive.
650M/750M are geforce they are meant for gamer kiddies (big and small).
If you use those engineering apps in bootcamp Iris Pro is definitely better, but getting a Dell Precision M3800 (k1100) is still way better.
If you guys are interested in that you should bombard Anandtech with mails asking for OSX tests of these kind. Notebookcheck ever only does them in Windows. Afaik they always run specperfview in Windows even on the Mac notebooks. Not sure if it is plattform independent or what benchmarks are there for Macs but a lot of these tests might look differently on different platforms.
Intel seems to be way better in OpenGL on Mac than it is on Windows. Nvidia again only delivers maximum OpenGL performance on Quadro cards and has Geforce always optimized for DirectX.

Really if you are serious about these kind of engineering apps you should probably steer clear of Macs entirely, because nothing will even come close to the Dell Precision M3800 with its K1100 in that workload and with all the Nvidia optimizations and features that Nvidia exclusively enables in the Quadros. You pay for the driver. It is basically the new XPS 15 with a quadro GPU.

 

[wheelhot]

Wow, thanks for the reply dusk007, really wish there's a commend system here

Yup, the Dell workstation would be a much better notebook for CAD application, but I use both OSX (aperture, Final Cut Pro X, key shot) and Windows (solid edge), so I'll have to go the Apple route. I really wish someday Apple would release a notebook with a workstation GPU since they are aiming it for the professional market (photographers, videographers, musicians) and not gamers.

Heck most gamers don't even consider macs

 

[erigas]

Wow, thanks for the reply dusk007, really wish there's a commend system here

Yup, the Dell workstation would be a much better notebook for CAD application, but I use both OSX (aperture, Final Cut Pro X, key shot) and Windows (solid edge), so I'll have to go the Apple route. I really wish someday Apple would release a notebook with a workstation GPU since they are aiming it for the professional market (photographers, videographers, musicians) and not gamers.

Heck most gamers don't even consider macs

Me too bro....I've been screaming for one for ages now but most people here relate 3d performance with Skyrim and not Solidworks lol....
I'm in the same boat as you, I primarily use Spaceclaim and Solidworks. I think since Bootcamp would automatically default to the 750M, the maxed out Iris Pro only version would be best for us!!

 

[BlingBling]

And to think all Apple had to do to get Iris Pro onto a 13" was swap the CPU, would have paid for that wholeheartedly even at the cost of battery life

 

[Jacquesass]

And to think all Apple had to do to get Iris Pro onto a 13" was swap the CPU, would have paid for that wholeheartedly even at the cost of battery life

I also really wish that was an option - but Intel is not currently offering Iris Pro on any 2 core mobile chips. The 2 core (Iris) chips have a TDP of 28W while the 4 core (Iris Pro) have a TDP of 47W. What's interesting is there doesn't seem to be a difference in TDP between 4 core chips with Crystalwell (Iris Pro) and those without ... so it seems that Intel could have made a dual-core chip with Crystalwell that would have worked in the 13".

Big question will be what they do with Broadwell. Will it offer quad-core at low enough TDP to make it into the 13"? Will Iris Pro graphics migrate down to dual-core chips?

 

[zOlid]

Here are some early benchmarks.

The config he used includes 16GB of RAM, 256GB of flash storage and Nvidia GT 750M graphics.

The article does not talk about the Iris Pro vs NVIDIA GT 750M debate, although thought you'd guys appreciate his benchmarks.

Just a summary of the article: Benchmarks show slight improvements overall, nothing over 30% from the 2012 model. PCIe SSD transfers 309 MBps vs last years SSD of 196 MBps.

This review was strange really.
I'm not sure if i understood it wrong or if the review is wrong, but it states that the brightness of the old rMBP is 223 and the new one is 324.
Don't both of them have the same displays?
Shouldn't they have the same brightness?

 

[Hitch08]

Great thread! I have the same question as several others in this thread - do I pay the same amount of money for the dGPU. At first, it seemed like the answer was clearly yes. However, as several point out, there is more to it than that.

 

[dusk007]

Big question will be what they do with Broadwell. Will it offer quad-core at low enough TDP to make it into the 13"? Will Iris Pro graphics migrate down to dual-core chips?

Intel has pretty much stated that Crystalwell will be something that all of their cpus will benefit sooner or later. They also said that at the moment it only makes sense above the 18W mark as it otherwise isn't worth the extra power it consumes.
Broadwell probably comes with more Crystalwell options. There is no DDR4 there and if they didn't have Crystalwell DDR4 would come much sooner.
There are already quad cores low enough for the 13". Apple just has no interest in useing them as that would cannibalize 15" purchases and 15" just come with a higher margin.

 

[adamneer]

Do you include Photoshop as one of the programs they optimize for a dGPU?

you'd have to check Adobe's site for a better explanation. they keep ongoing lists of supported gpu's for individual programs. for now, they only utilize CUDA in After Effects and Premiere Pro, which are my 2 most used applications. they do, however use openCL and openGL on a broad number of features in their other programs, including photoshop. I think it is important to note that whether or not the integrated graphics provide openCL and openGL, they (at least to my knowledge) are reliant on shared system memory whereas dynamic/dedicated gpu's have their own dedicated graphics memory, of which the amount can make the difference as to whether or not they are supported for GPU acceleration in an application.

 

[kronosqq]

So here's a question, for video production (Premiere Pro and some After Effects) am I going to see much of a difference between the Iris Pro and the 750M? I'd be getting this for a bit of mobile gaming as well, but I'm far from the type of PC gamer who demands constant 60fps and tries to run things at Retina resolutions. If the Iris Pro graphics would be able to do a bit of gaming at 30+ fps at 1680x1050 and medium-as high as I can get graphics settings then I'd be fine with that. Also (and I'm sorry I'm not better at reading benchmarks myself) would the 650M with a refurb from last generation instead be better than Iris Pro at any of this? Thanks!

 

[Jacquesass]

Intel has pretty much stated that Crystalwell will be something that all of their cpus will benefit sooner or later. They also said that at the moment it only makes sense above the 18W mark as it otherwise isn't worth the extra power it consumes.
Broadwell probably comes with more Crystalwell options. There is no DDR4 there and if they didn't have Crystalwell DDR4 would come much sooner.
There are already quad cores low enough for the 13". Apple just has no interest in useing them as that would cannibalize 15" purchases and 15" just come with a higher margin.

That makes a lot of sense re: Crystalwell vs. DDR4.

About Haswell, though, look at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_(microarchitecture):

1) No TDP penalty for Crystalwell. Seems like it should draw quite a bit more power for what is essentially the same GPU + a bunch of cache. Compare a 4700HQ and a 4950HQ - weird, right?
2) Only one quad core at 37W (with GT2 graphics), the rest at 47W. It's not a huge jump from the 28W dual core in the maxed 13" to 37W ... but you would also need a dGPU, so that's a no-go for the 13" (apparently).

Anyway, I agree that a dual-core Haswell with Iris Pro would have been great, especially if it didn't destroy battery life. I totally agree that something like this is probably coming to Broadwell - but I wonder if the big decision there will be: a) dual-core with Iris Pro or b) quad-core with Iris (for roughly the same TDP).

 

[wheelhot]

Me too bro....I've been screaming for one for ages now but most people here relate 3d performance with Skyrim and not Solidworks lol....
I'm in the same boat as you, I primarily use Spaceclaim and Solidworks. I think since Bootcamp would automatically default to the 750M, the maxed out Iris Pro only version would be best for us!!

My only concern right now is graphical bugs cause IrisPro is really new and I'm not sure how it'll support SolidWorks, SpaceClaim or SolidEdge applications (feel free to find more info on this) and another issue I'm checking up on is the difference in performance between OpenGL and OpenCL between the 750M and IrisPro.

 

[DarwinOSX]

People should really wait for the benchmarks which will show hard facts for what currently is speculation at best. Nobody knows definitely how good Mavericks GPU drivers are or

The people who have been beta testing it do.

----------

People should really wait for the benchmarks which will show hard facts for what currently is speculation at best. Nobody knows definitely how good Mavericks GPU drivers are or how bad.

Chances are people that stay on OSX and their main GPU needs come from professional software want the Iris Pro only. No gpu switching hassle, Intel is better at general processing and even in OpenGL Intel seems to be better of.
Gaming on Windows though and Nvidia 750M is a lot better. It is not wise to look at old Anandtech benchmarks as the driver situation has probably changed from then. Notebookcheck has some newer benches. It will take about a week maybe two and we will have lots of Reviews with newest drivers and also on OSX.

There are already quad cores low enough for the 13". Apple just has no interest in useing them as that would cannibalize 15" purchases and 15" just come with a higher margin.

Not the latest quad cores.

 

[luffytubby]

It's hilarious that the vast majority of complaints in macbook pro /imac forums are related to GPUs and gaming. people who need to do video and photo editing rarely complain.

its the big elephant in the room. a lot of people on these forums want to game, and they keep yapping on about GPUs and game performance. and it's a freaking Mac. and bootcamping. silly. silly, that Apple has not done something to remedy the situation when their userbase obviously is so much into it now.

Here are some early benchmarks.

The config he used includes 16GB of RAM, 256GB of flash storage and Nvidia GT 750M graphics.

The article does not talk about the Iris Pro vs NVIDIA GT 750M debate, although thought you'd guys appreciate his benchmarks.

Just a summary of the article: Benchmarks show slight improvements overall, nothing over 30% from the 2012 model. PCIe SSD transfers 309 MBps vs last years SSD of 196 MBps.

world of warcraft runs significantly worse on the 750m model. how is that possible? and why is that old game being used.

 

[ElderBrE]

It's hilarious that the vast majority of complaints in macbook pro /imac forums are related to GPUs and gaming. people who need to do video and photo editing rarely complain.

its the big elephant in the room. a lot of people on these forums want to game, and they keep yapping on about GPUs and game performance. and it's a freaking Mac. and bootcamping. silly. silly, that Apple has not done something to remedy the situation when their userbase obviously is so much into it now.



world of warcraft runs significantly worse on the 750m model. how is that possible? and why is that old game being used.

I'll bite.

My father's a professional sports photographer. He's still using a G5 for his work, and when he got that G5, it was my old machine. Photographers don't need much GPU power at all. Sure, I had upgraded that G5 to the best available GPU at the time (forget the name right now) but it's still going strong and it's more than enough for him, as much as I offer to him better solutions, he's happy with that.

I've worked professionally as a video editor and the Mac Pros I had before quitting that were mostly with the stock 120GTs. You can imagine. Of course, you couldn't do anything with After Effects, but for plain editing, it was enough. So another segment that will complain only if they're really doing "the extra mile", not the basic guys still editing for a news report, which are the majority.

So, yes, you won't see those pros complaining about GPUs very much. As you said, it's mostly gamers.

As for the WoW reference... many people still play that old game, and many more have played it at one point or another, so it's a good way to benchmark and have people know what you're talking about.

 

[PatientWaiter]

Hi, OP here. I didn't think this would thread would garner so much attention. Still have some questions. I don't know if I would be playing many games, but I might if the system could handle it I can see myself being more interested (current MBP can barely handle YouTube anymore.). Having said that, aside from the average daily tasks, I would like to have a powerful system for editing photos (approx 20-25 MB RAW files), audio (2-3 GB WAV files) and occasionally some video. Would be using Aperture, Lightroom, Photomatix, Photoshop for photo, ProTools, GarageBand, and Audacity for audio, and likely just iMovie for editing the occasional HD video compilations. I often watch a lot of video from laptop of TV shows and movies...not sure if that makes a difference.

Does the iGPU or dGPU make a difference when factoring in these programs? (Obviously, the audio argument is moot.) Would I even need the dGPU?

Forgive me, for a lot of the terminology used in this thread is beyond my comprehension level. I wouldn't be doing 3D modeling/design or anything on that end whatsoever.

I've been saving gift cards for 4 years to make this purchase and want to be sure I get it right! Thanks for your help.

 

[aixki]

Hi, OP here. I didn't think this would thread would garner so much attention. Still have some questions. I don't know if I would be playing many games, but I might if the system could handle it I can see myself being more interested (current MBP can barely handle YouTube anymore.). Having said that, aside from the average daily tasks, I would like to have a powerful system for editing photos, audio (approx 20-25 MB RAW files) and occasionally some video. Would be using Aperture, Lightroom, Photomatix, Photoshop for photo, ProTools, GarageBand, and Audacity for audio, and likely just iMovie for editing the occasional HD video compilations. I often watch a lot of video from laptop of TV shows and movies...not sure if that makes a difference.

Does the iGPU or dGPU make a difference when factoring in these programs? (Obviously, the audio argument is moot.) Would I even need the dGPU?

Forgive me, for a lot of the terminology used in this thread is beyond my comprehension level. I wouldn't be doing 3D modeling/design or anything on that end whatsoever.

I've been saving gift cards for 4 years to make this purchase and want to be sure I get it right! Thanks for your help.

I'm looking forward to get an answer to that questino from an experienced photographer I'm exactly in the same situation !