**NOTE: A previous thread of mine about the APFS file-system has forked, and in order to do a deeper dive on this new topic, and to help people with similar questions in the future, I have decided to create this new thread.
Background:
For a number of years, I have been using Bombich Software's "Carbon Copy Cloner" (CCC) software as a backup solution. In decades of computer use, I think CCC is probably one of the coolest and most practical pieces of software ever written. Thank you, Mike Bombich!!
What I love about Carbon Copy Cloner is that it not only proides a super easy way to backup my entire hard-drive, but it also allows me to backup the OS, all of my applications, and all of my system/application settings. And, it also offers me a way to clone the bootable partition on my hard-drive, so that my backup isn't just a backup, but rather a bootable clone of my entire Mac computer!
All of this is attainable in just a matter of a few clicks in the software.
Thanks to Carbon Copy Cloner, life has been good, and my system and my data is as safe as how often I run a clone and keep at least one copy off-site in case of local disaster.
Unfortunately, it seems that hardware and software changes by Apple in recent years break this entire paradigm?!
Current Problem:
Earlier this week, I started poking around looking to upgrade my 2015 Retina MacBook Pro to a 2TB internal SSD, and upgrade to Big Sur, and I ran into this GIGANTIC hurdle...
In this other thread of mine...
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-do-you-think-about-big-sur.2308636/
@sgtaylor5 wrote:
And then in my APFS thread which is the one that forked...
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/questions-about-apfs.2308655/?post=30211258#post-30211258
@hobowankenobi wrote:
@hobowankenobi continues to say: (This is starting to sound like a research paper!!) 🤓
Okay, so I want to rewind, and take back over control of the conversation and MY questions... ;-)
**NOTE: Moving forward, please assume that my questions relate to MY early 2015 Retina MacBook which currently has a 1TB SSD with Mojave on it, and after today will hopefully have a new 2TB internal SSD with Big Sur on it. (Would love to learn about how all of this impacted a new MacBook Pro, but one fire at a time, please!)
Questions:
1.) First of all, @sgtaylor5, what exactly is on the "System partition" and the "Data partition"?
Presumably the "System partition" contains all bootable code and the base OS. But what about other non data items?
2a.) For instance, if I install Libre Office onto my older rMBP with Big Sur, where does the application reside?
2b.) And where do all of my Libre Office settings reside?
3.) What about if I install Apple's Final Cut Pro?
4.) What about System-esque applications like Rouge Ameoba's "Loopback", or Apple's "AU Labs"?
If I lose the ability to "clone" those applications and all of their settings, then it is a deal-breaker for me, because it would easily take me a week to re-install my applications and re-customize them, and some of them are so complicated, I'm not sure I could easily re-create their current working settings which often take months of tweaking until I get things working just right. (I am getting into music and movie productions, and anyone who is an audiophile or a cinematographer can appreciate how complex those applications and environments can get!!)
There is much I would like to dive into after comments from @sgtaylor5 , @hobowankenobi , @Fishrrman , and others, but to prevent this new thread from spinning out of control, maybe someone can answer my first set of questions above?
******
P.S. I have been busy reading, and re-reading the links provided above, but this is all like going from a lifetime of American-English to Mandarin Chinese overnight!!
Background:
For a number of years, I have been using Bombich Software's "Carbon Copy Cloner" (CCC) software as a backup solution. In decades of computer use, I think CCC is probably one of the coolest and most practical pieces of software ever written. Thank you, Mike Bombich!!
What I love about Carbon Copy Cloner is that it not only proides a super easy way to backup my entire hard-drive, but it also allows me to backup the OS, all of my applications, and all of my system/application settings. And, it also offers me a way to clone the bootable partition on my hard-drive, so that my backup isn't just a backup, but rather a bootable clone of my entire Mac computer!
All of this is attainable in just a matter of a few clicks in the software.
Thanks to Carbon Copy Cloner, life has been good, and my system and my data is as safe as how often I run a clone and keep at least one copy off-site in case of local disaster.
Unfortunately, it seems that hardware and software changes by Apple in recent years break this entire paradigm?!
Current Problem:
Earlier this week, I started poking around looking to upgrade my 2015 Retina MacBook Pro to a 2TB internal SSD, and upgrade to Big Sur, and I ran into this GIGANTIC hurdle...
In this other thread of mine...
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/what-do-you-think-about-big-sur.2308636/
@sgtaylor5 wrote:
Catalina and Big Sur have two partitions; a System partition that is locked and with Big Sur, inaccessible to backup programs and a Data partition that has your applications and information on it.
On any Mac laptop that has a security chip T1 or later and especially M1, there are no provisions to recover data from a motherboard hard drive. The newer the Mac laptop, the better the chance that the SSD is actually chips on the motherboard and not a separate piece of hardware. The security chip automatically encrypts all data going onto the SSD.
And then in my APFS thread which is the one that forked...
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/questions-about-apfs.2308655/?post=30211258#post-30211258
@hobowankenobi wrote:
As of right now, cloning is hard. It may get easier in the future, but we don't know yet. As of today, the safe thing to expect for all new Macs running anything on APFS is that we will NOT have a bootable external clone.
Quite a bit of coverage has been written about this, but Bombich covers it fairly succinctly here. Another nice overview here with good info on the new structure (volumes, partitions, etc.).
As for what is different about APFS vs. HFS+...it is a moving target, especially when you factor in the OS changes too....and then there are boot firmware changes for all new M1 (and beyond) Macs.
Good overview here.
And Time Machine is different now, with real improvements. I think Apple should have called it Time Machine 2 or something, as it has fundamentally changed. And we all should consider it again, even if we were not fans a decade ago.
And yeah...we all feel very comfortable with our file system utilities for the last 3 decades. But if APFS does it's job, most—if not all—of those tools will be unnecessary. iOS has been using APFS for 5+ years. How often does anybody defrag or otherwise maintain the file system on an iPhone or iPad?
@hobowankenobi continues to say: (This is starting to sound like a research paper!!) 🤓
It just takes a bit of changing of mindset. Bootable clones are amazing and convenient. But what really matters is our unique data, not the OS or apps or things that can be reinstalled easily. Unique user data is everything.
CCC (and many other tools, including Time Machine) do a great job of protecting our user data, even without bootable clones.
I have an M1 mini running as a local server that needs continuous backup, so I use:
• Time Machine to an attached volume for continuous backups
• Drive sync tool for instantaneous file syncing to NAS
• Chronosync to an attached volume for scheduled backups and long-term version control
• Chronosync to archive the full OS to a disk image on a remote server for full disaster recovery
All very doable on the latest OS and hardware. Would I like a bootable clone too? Sure. Can I live without it? Yep.
----
I would suggest:
Test, test, test.
- Pick one Mac that you can live without for while and make it a testbed
- Clone it to external (so you can painlessly roll back if needed)
- Make a TM backup too, to a second volume/partition
- Update to MacOS 11. I would wipe, format, and start fresh
- Use the migration tool to restore from your TM backup
An important test: Boot to internet recovery, install a fresh OS, and restore data from TM, CCC, or any other backup tool you use. It will take a bit longer than the attached clone, but good to know exactly what to expect, and how long it takes before you actually need it. Good to know that you can do it this way...even when you do a bootable clone.
If you are not satisfied with the TM restore...wipe and start again.
Consider not restoring, or restoring only specific files you need.
This process/progress has to be messy. We have a huge change: CPU, GPU, firmware, OS, security/access, file system. All changing.
We can wait, but not forever. Maybe when MacOS 12.something is here this winter, we may see some easier paths forward. Bugs squashed, features added...maybe even the return of easily bootable external clones? Eventually, we all move forward or we change paths. Can only tread water on HFS+ for so long...
P.S.: I understand SuperDuper has a beta version that may have Big Sur cloning working, but I have not tested it yet. If they did it...that means others will crack it too. And that is without Apple handing over the keys to ASR. More on the struggles and work arounds back here.
Okay, so I want to rewind, and take back over control of the conversation and MY questions... ;-)
**NOTE: Moving forward, please assume that my questions relate to MY early 2015 Retina MacBook which currently has a 1TB SSD with Mojave on it, and after today will hopefully have a new 2TB internal SSD with Big Sur on it. (Would love to learn about how all of this impacted a new MacBook Pro, but one fire at a time, please!)
Questions:
1.) First of all, @sgtaylor5, what exactly is on the "System partition" and the "Data partition"?
Presumably the "System partition" contains all bootable code and the base OS. But what about other non data items?
2a.) For instance, if I install Libre Office onto my older rMBP with Big Sur, where does the application reside?
2b.) And where do all of my Libre Office settings reside?
3.) What about if I install Apple's Final Cut Pro?
4.) What about System-esque applications like Rouge Ameoba's "Loopback", or Apple's "AU Labs"?
If I lose the ability to "clone" those applications and all of their settings, then it is a deal-breaker for me, because it would easily take me a week to re-install my applications and re-customize them, and some of them are so complicated, I'm not sure I could easily re-create their current working settings which often take months of tweaking until I get things working just right. (I am getting into music and movie productions, and anyone who is an audiophile or a cinematographer can appreciate how complex those applications and environments can get!!)
There is much I would like to dive into after comments from @sgtaylor5 , @hobowankenobi , @Fishrrman , and others, but to prevent this new thread from spinning out of control, maybe someone can answer my first set of questions above?
******
P.S. I have been busy reading, and re-reading the links provided above, but this is all like going from a lifetime of American-English to Mandarin Chinese overnight!!