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Thanks...I went back and read the article. Have to disagree with you here. The quotes from the article are proper and the one that is not a direct quote from morris reads just as it should, as an opinion of the author about Morris. The other quotes read just as powerfully in context as they are in quotations in the thread. You are correct, though, in pointing us to the original to confirm the points made in the thread.

sigh. I guess i didn't make myself clear. I had no problem with macrumors' use of the source material: i thought it was a good presentation of the Wired article. MR exercised good journalism in its presentation.

But i'll stand by my assertion that although there are one or two astounding quotes attributed (correctly) to morris, most of the dramatic quotes in the MR piece are correctly attributed not to morris but to the wired author. There's a big difference between a direct quote of morris speaking, and a direct quote of an article/writer presenting what it/he says morris thinks. I thought some readers might not distinguish correctly between the two, thereby assuming wrongly that some of the most outrageous statements were directly from morris. That concern is reinforced by the fact that my own post wasn't clear enuff to successfully present my case! The Wired writer might well be correct in the ways he characterizes Morris' thinking. But as readers we need to be aware of the difference, and ask ourselves, "is this quote the exact words of Morris? Or the exact words of the author telling us what he believes Morris thinks?" peace.
 
Those £5 albums have made millions already over to cover all costs associated with their initial investment, and they'd never sell at full price to today's audience.

Well they are better than todays stuff for a start :p.

£8-12 is perfectly reasonable for an album that you can get a lifetime's of listening pleasure out of if you buy wisely; the cost of a new paperback. Far cheaper than a new release computer game, it's the cost of going to see a movie in London, the price of a return tube ticket in Zone 1, the price of three McDonalds meals... I honestly can't see what you're quibbling about or where your priorities are.

You've made a good point. But remember than London is expensive, so £8 - £12 in London is more like £6 to £9 outside the capital ;).

TV shows are sold on the basis of advertising if they're not created by public broadcasting... do you have any idea what a first-run series costs to buy for a broadcaster and how much they charge for 30 second spots to go around it?

The advertising is high, however I was thinking about sales on iTunes, I can't believe they'd make a loss if they only sold through iTunes.

EDIT: Anyhow this argument is silly.
 
IJ,

I had another quote-for-quote response but I deleted it 'cause I get the feeling we could just go round and round kinda like I've seen you do w/people who don't have the same experience/expertise in land management and planning that you have.;)

Instead I will just offer up this short hypothetical question.

IJ, I'm a filmmaker wanting to make a micro-budget movie that will cost about $250,000 for post and production. How do I raise the $250k to make the movie and how do I use the internet to get a profitable return on my movie?


Again, I'm not saying things aren't going to change. I'm not saying I don't want things to change. I'm saying, as someone actively looking into ways to monetize new media and the internet so I don't have to be under the thumb of studio or private investor, things are very, very, very uncertain and much more speculation than fact right now. For a few years now the low budget crowd has been "internet, internet, internet" but once they actually get to the internet they stop, scratch their heads, and mumble, "Huh... this is harder and more expensive than we thought..."


Lethal
 
Moot Point

What Mr. Morris doesn't get is that we consumers already own virtually all the good music on cassette tape, CD or via eMusic, iTunes, etc. There is almost no point to his greedy, money grubbing grab for power. We don't need his music.

He isn't a producer of music. His company isn't a producer. The artists are the producers. He and his company have just been ripping off the consumers and the artists for decades. Now there is a better way - artists are direct marketing to consumers through the net. More power to them. Time to cut out (the throat of) the middleman.

There are many musicians who did see the new way. There was also eMusic long before iTunes. Morris and his ilk are a dinosaurs and losers - he just hasn't seen the meteor yet. Probably never will.
 
£8-12 is perfectly reasonable for an album that you can get a lifetime's of listening pleasure out of if you buy wisely; the cost of a new paperback. Far cheaper than a new release computer game, it's the cost of going to see a movie in London, the price of a return tube ticket in Zone 1, the price of three McDonalds meals... I honestly can't see what you're quibbling about or where your priorities are.

Absolutely correct. I am someone who buys way too many CDs and I think that current prices are pretty reasonable.
 
Oh, but now we are talking volume and margins and other economic type things that people don't want to think about when they'd rather just blurt out random prices of what they think things should cost even though they don't know about the given industry to understand all the costs involved w/creating and getting that piece of work out to market.

well the last time my regard for the music industry giants went down was when i get to know somebody who works in a sony cd/dvd pressing factory .. needless to say some of the stuff happening at such company is flat out ridiculous ...
like when customers come over to look at the factory before signing contracts they switch the machines to "always display green lights" because "there are never errors at a sony pressing facility" .. so if a machine locks up (which happens frequently) no alarm goes of while visiting
not only that but all the dozens of huge garbage bins get rolled into the cellar since "there is no garbage produced at a sony factory"
and of course all the workers have also to stay in the break room since "everything works automatic at a sony pressing plant"

they should visit during normal operation when they are throwing away thousands of miss-produced or excess amounts of disks ... every day
 
Hi I haven't read through this thread but I did want to make one observation.

Morris is quoted as saying:

"There's no one in the record company that's a technologist," Morris explains. "That's a misconception writers make all the time, that the record industry missed this. They didn't. They just didn't know what to do. It's like if you were suddenly asked to operate on your dog to remove his kidney. What would you do?"

This statement has a lot of problems. I'll start from the top.

A long time ago, record companies produced records. That meant that they found raw (or polished) talent, polished the act up, hired some outstanding backing musicians and put this guy or gal in the studio. So the recording engineers, mastering engineers, etc. were essentially employees of the record companies. More like contract employees, hired to do a specific task (record a specific record).

These people can be defined as technologists. It is their job to put to use technology to produce the product that the record companies distribute. (As an aside, every modern engineer has known for the past several years how to make a good sounding mp3. And there are now many many many engineers employed because of the fact that they can do that.)

So anyway, at some point the focus of the major record labels shifted from that of a company in the business of making music to a company in the business of distributing music. They stopped developing talent, and did not set up a channel for that task to be outsourced. They began to court 'hits'. Sustainable sales; musicians connecting to their fanbase; producing quality music for people to relate to, and all the other ideals of the record company model went out the window. They began to narrow the target audience of the music that they would market, in effect, marginalizing most of the customer base that had sustained them through the last 40 years. At the same time, they bought up their distributors, and muscled the outlets (all the Sam Goodys of the world) into submission. Additionally, they created a situation where the artists themselves became responsible for producing the music. Or in other words, they created a situation where the megastudio model, the model upon which 50-60 years of american musical history was built, was no longer viable (because an artist will choose a studio with a lower rate, because at the end of the day, recording/mixing/mastering costs come out of the artist's pocket). They put their technologists out of business.

Just in case you missed it: They put their technologists out of business.

In essence they stopped being record companies and became manufacturing and distribution companies.

Now, being a distribution company that in essence distributes the product that they produce, they found themselves in a position where they no longer needed to innovate. People bought CDs, profits were high, and everybody was happy.

Enter Napster. The mp3 codec essentially overnight became the preferred format for illegal distribution. Its lossy (but still sounds acceptable), which means that file sizes for encoded music are only 10% of the original.

Now on to Mr. Morris.

The record company employs no technologists. He is correct. They essentially put them out of business as part of their transition to becoming manufacturing and distribution companies.

The record companies didn't know what to do. ********. And that's the other half of the point. If they couldn't figure out that the number two rule in business is 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em' (number one is profit at all costs) then they deserved what they got.

Sorry if I've covered ground that others already have, I haven't read the post.

Mark
 
IJ, I'm a filmmaker wanting to make a micro-budget movie that will cost about $250,000 for post and production. How do I raise the $250k to make the movie and how do I use the internet to get a profitable return on my movie?

I dunno. I know almost exactly nothing about filmmaking. Films, it seems to me though are a rather different kettle of fish. If as you say, even a "micro-budget" films cost a quarter of a million bucks, then this is a pretty big barrier to independent filmmaking from word go. Am I wrong? Also, the venues for films not screened in theaters or on TV are pretty limited currently. Music is quite different (again, correct me if I'm wrong) in that the musician is more likely to be able to self-finance recording, and hundreds of millions of us are now carrying the venue around in our pockets.

Again, I'm not saying things aren't going to change. I'm not saying I don't want things to change. I'm saying, as someone actively looking into ways to monetize new media and the internet so I don't have to be under the thumb of studio or private investor, things are very, very, very uncertain and much more speculation than fact right now. For a few years now the low budget crowd has been "internet, internet, internet" but once they actually get to the internet they stop, scratch their heads, and mumble, "Huh... this is harder and more expensive than we thought..."

Yeah, I hear you. I'm not saying all the pieces are in place now, but I see them falling into place pretty quickly over the next few years. My main point is that the music industry is wedded to an antique model. I see them trying to extract as much money out of it now as possible, knowing as they must in their heart of hearts that they are doomed. Not doomed as in going bankrupt left and right tomorrow, but doomed as in seeing their market shrink steadily as the new media creation and delivery methods take hold.
 
This is a very revealing article about why the music industry is the way it is. I was surprised by it.

arn

Morris' attitude comes as no surprise to me at all. Then again, I have first hand knowledge of Universal and its attitude towards technology.

Simply put, CD sales was the golden goose, as pointed out in the article. Additionally, technology was generally viewed like xerox copier maintenance. Or, one step above janitorial. Most didn't understand technology like computers, therefore, they hated it.

Also interesting is that Morris seems to be a perfect example of the Peter Principle in action. That, combined with his overtly Luddite attitude, is a recipe for disaster.

Frankly, they blew it. He can make all the excuses he wants, but competent people were available to him. He just chose to ignore them.

The future as I see it: DRM-free digital music and complete Balkanization of music.

Their worst nightmare.
 
This whole "we're not technologists" etc etc / dog surgery argument rings very hollow.

I seem to recall Bill Gates effectively taking "18 months" to take a wander around the Internet before committing Microsoft to internet related development. This was triggered by the success of Netscape, I believe.

Now, technologist or not, it doesn't take a genius to look at the initial success of the iTunes Music Store (how long has it been around now - 5 years?). Surely after you've sold a million, ten million etc songs by this new distribution method - and raked in cash from a previously non-existent revenue stream - any sane businessman would sit back and go "Hmm... there might be something in this" and do something as early as possible?

By there stage, there would have to be consultants, technologists etc etc available. There's no more risk to this kind of consultation than there is to any other, and you'd chose a consultant along similar lines, such as previous experience, customer referrals etc.

Hindsight might be 20/20, but it certainly doesn't take a Bill Gates to realise that the internet would have a significant influence on the future distribution of music.

Just my 2 cents, and I hope I made some sense.
 
Those £5 albums have made millions already over to cover all costs associated with their initial investment, and they'd never sell at full price to today's audience.

Not all new releases are that cheap at all... only popular stuff.

TV shows are sold on the basis of advertising if they're not created by public broadcasting... do you have any idea what a first-run series costs to buy for a broadcaster and how much they charge for 30 second spots to go around it? Music CDs to be interspersed with unskippable embedded audio advertising or albums bought to by Coca-Cola... there's your £5 CD. It's not a comparable model in the slightest.

£8-12 is perfectly reasonable for an album that you can get a lifetime's of listening pleasure out of if you buy wisely; the cost of a new paperback. Far cheaper than a new release computer game, it's the cost of going to see a movie in London, the price of a return tube ticket in Zone 1, the price of three McDonalds meals... I honestly can't see what you're quibbling about or where your priorities are.

BV, I agree with you completely. Sure, CD's are cheap these days. But the countless hours of studio time it took to record that album sure weren't. Neither were the engineers that recorded it. To your point - how could I quantify the impact my favorite albums have had on me? What would they be worth monetarily? More than a couple of cups of Starbucks, without a doubt.

People expect something to be free that costs so much money/energy/talent to crate. It's terribly unfortunate.

To go a bit further, it's always kind of baffled me when people blame the record labels for there only being one good song on an album of fourteen tracks. That's not the label's fault - it's the band's fault. I don't understand it, but then again I've never in my life been a single track type fella - I always buy albums.

That's not to say that I've never been disappointed in the exact same situation. Of course I have. The difference is, I'm dissapointed the band couldn't/didn't' write an album's worth of material. The label the band is on never crosses my mind.

Great article though. I'm certainly no fan of the labels. The standard issue recording/distribution contracts have been rape-fests for the artists for years. It's insane how completely oblivious these guys are.

Even weirder, Steve Jobs is holding a lot of the cards with retail music, and will soon probably have the fight of his lifetime to keep holding them.
 
I dunno. I know almost exactly nothing about filmmaking. Films, it seems to me though are a rather different kettle of fish.
Movies are definitely a bigger kettle of fish, but both kettles are being turned upside down by the lowering cost of hardware & software and the rise of the internet and broadband. To butcher a phrase, as goes music, so goes movies/tv. I tend to talk about movies/tv more because that's my area but there are enough parallels that I feel comfortable that I can talk about the music industry and not say anything that's way out in left field.


Music is quite different (again, correct me if I'm wrong) in that the musician is more likely to be able to self-finance recording, and hundreds of millions of us are now carrying the venue around in our pockets.
It's easier to make an album in that you don't need as much equipment, as many people, but to make an album that doesn't sound like it was homemade still takes more money and experience than people realize until they start the process. It's kinda like the $499 Dell computers. Yeah, you can buy a computer for $499, but it most likely it won't do what you need it to do w/o another $500 in upgrades. If you want to just make music, movies, photographs, or whatever as a hobby or as an "amateur professional" then not getting any/very much, return on your investment into gear, software, and your time spent isn't a very big deal. But if you want to do it for a living you'll be investing even more in gear, software, and time and getting a return then becomes very important 'cause if you don't get a return you don't eat. And currently the 'net just isn't very good at generating income for content creators, especially if you are a cash strapped "unknown" in a sea of cash strapped unknowns. YouTube alone averages 65k new videos every day. Even if 99% of it is crap that's still a lot of crap for the viewer to sift thru to hopefully stumble upon your stuff. Marketing, letting the world know about your album/movie/painting, is really the biggest key to success, and the cost for that hasn't really scaled down. For a typical album marketing costs (and I'm including music videos) can easily soar past the cost of actually recording the album. You can cross your fingers and hope to go viral, but you'd probably have better odds winning the Power Ball.


Yeah, I hear you. I'm not saying all the pieces are in place now, but I see them falling into place pretty quickly over the next few years. My main point is that the music industry is wedded to an antique model. I see them trying to extract as much money out of it now as possible, knowing as they must in their heart of hearts that they are doomed. Not doomed as in going bankrupt left and right tomorrow, but doomed as in seeing their market shrink steadily as the new media creation and delivery methods take hold.
I agree, and I think one of the reasons they are slow to change is the old dudes in charge are just biding their time until they get their golden parachutes and are leaving the mess for the next group of execs to figure out.

I've managed to discover several bands I'd never heard about before, just by poking around, by following links -- you know, the way we all access information on the internet. Pandora turned me on to a few names I'd never heard before. Now I buy their stuff.
I meant to comment on this earlier, but I forgot to. How many of the bands weren't signed to labels and were "going their own way" only on the internet? I've found many, many bands via the internet, but they've all been on labels (big and small), had CDs in stores, etc.,.


Lethal
 
huh?

With the advent of the digital music distribution market, headed by Apple, these music companies have all but eliminated the cost of manufacturing and shipping (not a small victory by any measure of the word in these times of fossil fuel scaricity) their product.
I completely fail to see their sense of loss, however, their attachment to a static economic golden egg laying goose is readily evident and serves only cement the appropriateness of their demise.
 
"If you had Coca-Cola coming through the faucet in your kitchen, how much would you be willing to pay for Coca-Cola? There you go," he says. "That's what happened to the record business."

If I can buy a device that lets me get all the free music I want indefinitely, how much do you think I'd be willing to pay for music? There you go.

Music essentially becomes worthless under Total Music. P2P or Total Music, whats the difference again?

I wonder how JayZ and Jermaine Dupri feel about their music being totally worthless? Bet those singles sales on iTunes start looking pretty good.
 
Music essentially becomes worthless under Total Music. P2P or Total Music, whats the difference again?

I wonder how JayZ and Jermaine Dupri feel about their music being totally worthless? Bet those singles sales on iTunes start looking pretty good.

which of course makes the whole discussion here more ironic by people who are defending current CD prices ... after all as far as i understood it you buy a media player and then can listen to all music available through total music ...
that for sure makes songs/music a lot less worth than they would be compared to 5 bucks cds
 
To go a bit further, it's always kind of baffled me when people blame the record labels for there only being one good song on an album of fourteen tracks. That's not the label's fault - it's the band's fault. I don't understand it, but then again I've never in my life been a single track type fella - I always buy albums.

That is a misunderstanding. Unless an artist is of Mariah Carey/Celine Dion/Garth Brooks caliber, chances are they signed over creative control of their projects when they spilled ink on their contract. The record labels have the final say as to what songs make the final project. There are many many cases of projects not seeing the light because the label was uncomfortable releasing them. And my gut feeling is not that the projects were subpar (because this has happened to some of my favorite artists - srtists I'm confident would put out a quality product, because they have in the past), but that there was a creative clash, wherein the label demanded more marketable music. I've also seen several careers undone due to the fact that the artist complied and 'market'ized his/her project, thereby losing his/her established fanbase or failing to establish one.

The second portion of this is that the labels no longer develop talent. In a talent development vacuum, who is groomed to make timeless songs?

The record industry needs a union. As of right now, their labor practices far exceed abuse.
 
That is a misunderstanding. Unless an artist is of Mariah Carey/Celine Dion/Garth Brooks caliber,

Caliber or marketablility? ;)

But what you say is true. In larger labels the recording artist has very little control over the content. There are time where labels hold good tracks for later albums and then user filler tracks to make up numbers.
 
Revealing just how stupid they really are

:) I'm just simply amazed at how stupid Morris and all the CEO's of all the record labels really are. They just don't get it at all. Records and CD's are old school and won't get them the business that they once did. His new old plan won't work either. Subscriptions or renting music failed long ago and has been proven time and time again as NOT the right answer. People still want to own there music and want to buy individual songs too. And on top of that don't want any kind of DRM. Morris and company are going to find there new old plan failing like all there stupid plans before them and there profits falling again.

Will they ever learn and get a clue? :apple:
 
Morris said:

"People never really understand what's happening to the artists. All the sharing of the music, right? Is it correct that people share their music, fill up these devices with music they haven't paid for? "

What a CROCK! He and others like him are directly responsible for what is happening to the artist. Wow. And he tries to pass the blame to illegal file sharers. What a load of bull...

"Our strategy is to have the people who create great music be paid properly," he says.

Baloney.
 
I meant to comment on this earlier, but I forgot to. How many of the bands weren't signed to labels and were "going their own way" only on the internet? I've found many, many bands via the internet, but they've all been on labels (big and small), had CDs in stores, etc.,.

I couldn't tell you. This band appears to have only one CD out, on a small indie label. The rest of their catalog is available for download on their web site. I can't remember how I blundered into them, but I'm sure I never would have in a Virgin Megastore.
 
Throughout civilized history the vast majority of art has been commisioned and presided over by some of the most ruthless, tyranical, self interested bastards to ever walk the face of the planet and their respective institutions. Thankfully today we live in more cultured times. Wait....

Nevermind.
 
I couldn't tell you. This band appears to have only one CD out, on a small indie label. The rest of their catalog is available for download on their web site. I can't remember how I blundered into them, but I'm sure I never would have in a Virgin Megastore.

Heh. EVERYBODY has a marketing plan that depends on people "blundering into them." :D

However, to make money, you generally have to have something better than that...
 
Actually labels typically cover the costs associated to making an album (recording, marketing, distributing, music videos, touring, etc.,) and hope that they make their money back after the fact. Typically they don't, but the success of the relatively few "blockbuster" acts brings in enough cash to have the label turn a profit.

"Typically they don't" ... Well, it all depends on whose accounting you are using.

What is the cost of the studio to record in? Well, in a free market it isn't very high at all. In record-label-land, that's a major investment that the artist will pay back (plus interest) when/if they make a dime. What is the cost of the label-employed producer? Again, if this were a free market the "cost" associated with his services would likely be significantly less than what the label charges the artist for this.

Labels operate like the old mines and factories: you must buy work-related goods from the company store (because We Can't Guarantee the Quality of Goods Bought Elsewhere!), and since they set the "prices" at the company store they can guarantee that everything is always half off (the price that no one would ever pay). Still, such companies often made killings in their company stores.

Case in point: The Simpsons (TV show, but TV studios operate very similarly to record labels) has never made a profit, by TV studio math. Still, one hell of a lot of people have made one hell of a lot of money off it, and the responsible studio has been able to employ its executive staff at exorbitant salaries and with audacious perks the whole time. But these aren't profits, of course. You pay taxes and royalties on profits.
 
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