What changed regarding trust from apple? Adding os signed on device scanning for csam? I smell a big pile of horse poo. The faux over reactions here are hilarious.You have no idea how this has saddened meUp until two weeks ago I was in Apple ecosystem nirvana. Because I trusted Apple I had done things that, a few years ago, I would have told myself was just nuts. Everything shared/backed-up to iCloud. Financial integration. Home automation. Health and fitness. Entertainment. Hardly anything in my life was untouched by Apple. My wife couldn't believe some of the stuff I was doing. I was even very close to putting HomePods in the house at one point.
Now I'm looking at myself and saying "What the hell were you thinking?" as I slowly disentangle myself from all that.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
University Researchers Who Built a CSAM Scanning System Urge Apple to Not Use the 'Dangerous' Technology
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
Yes.
Why? Because you don't believe it a problem, nobody should see it a problem, therefore anybody who claims they see it as a problem must be full of it? How broad-minded of you
Here's a big difference between you and me: I respect your choice to trust Apple, even if I do feel it misguided. But you: Because I don't see things your way, I'm full of "poo" and "faux."
Last edited:
What changed is Apple install a backdoor in iOS (iPhone). I don’t think anyone is upset about them waiting to catch CSAM. The problem is if I can access your device to scan it for that I can also do other things. I can scan your pictures for weapons or maybe a national flag. If I can read your iMessages for pornography I can also read them for going against whatever country you live in. It’s not really hard to understand. Apple’s policy is to comply with whatever local laws and government requests in the country it does business in. This means when the Chinese government requests Apple to scan iPhones for certain information, Apple will comply.
Previously Apple’s big answer was “we can’t do that” but now they can
If you are ok with a third party digging through your stuff, fine.
I‘m not. Not even a tiny bit. Plus I do have customer data and some documents/data from various courts in my possession for processing.
Hence I am forced by law to go elsewhere. Not that I would stay given the circumstances
This is a pretty important point I have not yet seen discussed in these many threads about Apple's CSAM plans.
I am retired, but, beforehand I was in a position of responsibility such that I had to be conscious at all times of the fact that, when I extended my trust to another party, I was, by extension, sometimes extending trust others had place in me to those other parties. That was one reason I moved from Android to iOS: Because I felt I could no longer do that on the Android platform and keep faith with those who had placed their trust in me.
I was interested in buying a new iPhone 12 or 13. I am no longer interested in buying or switching to a brand new iPhone from Apple. So if I really wanted a iPhone, I would buy from a reputable refurbished iPhone supplier. I would save money, save the environment, and directly support a local/Canadian supplier, not Apple's pockets.
I still cannot believe that this backdoor on user's devices has been approved by Apple management – it's just too stupid.
If Apple has performance problems to do this in the cloud for each uploaded image, they have to solve the problem and delay this "feature" if necessary.
I will not update and will not buy new hardware where this backdoor comes preinstalled.
If Apple has performance problems to do this in the cloud for each uploaded image, they have to solve the problem and delay this "feature" if necessary.
I will not update and will not buy new hardware where this backdoor comes preinstalled.
Last edited:
I think this is a major concern for many in Europe. Not only apple might not meet EU regulations but any business user might violate data handling and privacy protection requirements by allowing separate stuff and searching to happen within his private data and device. Yes I know, set iCloud to off and you are fine and such and it's announced for the US market first only, but this is not ending here and might very well be rolled out over platforms and countries and such finally with more punch.
I hope Apple soon clarifies were they intend to head to.
I hope Apple soon clarifies were they intend to head to.
No, because it would eventually blow up in their face and they'd have even more backlash when all the infosec/antisec people poking it with sticks exposed what they're doing.
Being honest, Spotlight is kinda rubbish, it's what... 15, 16 years old now? It works as an app launcher, but fails to find simple things that find and grep can locate from terminal. It's not actually very good.
Other pieces of Apple which are honestly second-rate: Maps vs. Google Maps, hahahahahaha, it's a joke, people put up with Apple because of the illusion of privacy. Siri doesn't compare well with the offerings of Apple's competitors, people tolerate it, again, because of the illusion of privacy. Apple's entire ecosystem of "Home"whatever is a joke. I could go on, but won't bother.
Apple's vaunted security PR and walled garden is... just a narrative; obviously it doesn't actually work, since they're still 0wn3e by Pegasus.
Privacy has been a foundational piece of Apple's narrative which props up their brand.
The scary thing is ... what Apple does seem to actually be getting pretty good at, is ML. "Live Text" what a cool feature for the transition to Apple Surveillance.
This forum is an echo-chamber for people who drank the koolaid and already love Apple products. I would say the point we're at today, wherein the ACLU is on the opposite side of Apple, has sailed off over a cliff into extraordinarily bad narrative control on Apple's part.
The Pegasus group may be slightly upset, since Apple has usurped their business model and chosen to bend over for the governments of planet Earth; perhaps they can sue Apple for stealing their business plan and backdooring their own OS.
From a fiscal perspective... I don't care. I've already made a lot of money off AAPL and what comes next, depends entirely upon the market. If it tanks and walks off a cliff, oh well, I'll be dumping and shorting it simultaneously.
What really pisses me off, is I drank the koolaid too, and now I'll be left in the absolutely ludicrous position of jailbreaking my own property to kick Apple's crap out of the process table, running pi-hole to block because Little Snitch can't block Apple's own OS since Big Sur. And I've wandered far away from the landscape of "It Just Works."
Anyway, this is getting long, and as mentioned, our conversation is taking place within an echo-chamber which usually has nothing but great ♥️ for Apple; there's something wrong with that. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, please go share your observations with the 90+ privacy, civil rights, human rights orgs which have signed on so far to oppose Apple. I'm sure nobody read the white papers and They Just Don't Understand.
Apple’s illusion of privacy is getting harder to sell
Even iPhone users with nothing to hide could be forgiven for being a little creeped out that Apple will scan their photos and see if they match existing databases of known illegal pornographic images. Privacy experts called the idea a potential back door for governments to request or demand...
bdnews24.com
My issue isn’t Apple digging through my data because I trust Apple for the most part won’t do anything bad. Right now the USA is mostly stable and democratic so short of me doing something criminal I don’t think I would catch any heat from political viewpoints. The poor people that will catch hell are those living in not so free countries. China has forced Apple to give them all iCloud data for Chinese iPhones but if you have an iPhone in China you could just simply turn off iCloud. With this new setup it won’t matter because on device scanning can reveal whenever you have.
Why is Apple doing this? Easy answer they’re under pressure from a lot of less than free countries and the USA to give them a backdoor to the iPhone. All governments to include USA want power and spying on your subjects is an important way to make sure they don’t lose that power.
Is Apple worried about this causing them to lose business? I don’t think so because are you going to go to Google? This is what happens when you have a duopoly. Two corporations control every phone out there.
You're right, strange. I sometimes see it and sometimes don't. I thought they changed something.
It was just an underline, not a link.
You are not the only one burned by this : lesson learned, even if I've always been wary by experienceYou have no idea how this has saddened me
Now I'm looking at myself and saying "What the hell were you thinking?" as I slowly disentangle myself from all that.
Apple was something I trusted a little more because at one point you need to loosen up : I was wrong!
Here’s a great podcast on the subject. René Ritchie is an Apple apologist so he won’t say anything negative about them. I think it’s because he has contacts on the inside and doesn’t want to lose those. Georgia Dow on the other hand is a privacy advocate and explains what they are doing without any BS
pca.st
Apple Betrayal & Zero Attention Span
Listen to your favorite podcasts online, in your browser. Discover the world's most powerful podcast player.
pca.st
That’s only a temporary fix. Apple knows they don’t have any competition when it comes to privacy so they can give you little or as much as they want and people that want privacy will still buy Apple. There is literally no other choice. Buying used hardware is a temporary fix but sooner or later the operating system will become outdated and full of security holes and the hardware will eventually die. If that point Apple is back to normal. This might hurt them in the short term but not really. Most people are used to having their privacy invaded so they’re just numb about it. The only reason this is a story is Apple AKA “What’s on your iPhone stays on your iPhone” is doing it. If it was Google or Facebook it would be a non-story
It already kinda sorta has: [P] AppleNeuralHash2ONNX: Reverse-Engineered Apple NeuralHash, in ONNX and Python
Apple Maps has pretty much done right by me, but there's been the occasional thing that made no sense at all. Like yesterday. Was going for an eye exam. Hadn't been there for many years and we were taking my wife's car. So, instead of using the navigation system in my Jeep, I tried to use my iPhone. Darned if Apple Maps didn't want to take me someplace that was entirely wrong. Right street address. Wrong street. Wrong city. Wrong general direction. Wrong everything except street number. Good thing the two of us actually more-or-less remembered where the place really was.
I dunno. Siri's been pretty good to me. (She's entirely disabled, even for manual activation, everywhere, now.) But I have nothing against which to judge Siri, as I never activated Google's equivalent when I was on Android (and won't if I go back to Android) and I never activated Alexa during the short time we used Amazon Fire TV streamers.
The only consistent problems I had with Siri were trying to use her from my Apple Watch in conjunction with HomeKit. Almost a complete fail with the irrigation system, and sometimes would claim there was no such thing with the lighting. Oddly, worked well from my phone.
That's an unfair, blanket condemnation. I'm seeing plenty of people who range from "this makes me uncomfortable" to "I'm outta here."
Last edited:
Apple will ask for your permission first. The police can also search your house without a warrant if you allow it.
I think you mean whatever you have. Really? Like what? Please be specific.
A backdoor? Again, really? Can you explain how this new "backdoor" permits this?
Many here insist on calling this a backdoor. Meaning governments can remotely access anything they want on your phone. Shrug.
I have a feeling most people against this are gonna forget all about it come mid September. Prove me wrong, vote with your wallets
September 16th: MacRumors: OMG! I'm entering my credit card details to buy the iPhone 13/12S!
Some people on here: But, But, BUT, what about the scanning?
MacRumors: Oh, THAAAT!!!!????? It's just a minor thing, gimmie the iPhone 13 Pro Max 1 TB model!!!
Some people on here: But, But, BUT, what about the scanning?
MacRumors: Oh, THAAAT!!!!????? It's just a minor thing, gimmie the iPhone 13 Pro Max 1 TB model!!!
It’s not about being broad minded, if you have a problem with it - fine! It’s about the fact that you along with a good few others are failing to understand that this new tech increases privacy for such matters, not decreases. You don’t understand it, but that doesn’t mean it’s bad no matter what the internet is telling you.Yes.
Why? Because you don't believe it a problem, nobody should see it a problem, therefore anybody who claims they see it as a problem must be full of it? How broad-minded of you
Here's a big difference between you and me: I respect your choice to trust Apple, even if I do feel it misguided. But you: Because I don't see things your way, I'm full of "poo" and "faux."
Backdoor. A backdoor in tech is an ability to go in and out of the os undetected due to a preordained hole in the security of it. This is clearly not that.
First- I keep my personal and private data separate from the os in Cryptomator containers if I deem it so personal. Apple would not be a third party on an Apple os device, the os manufacturer of any device of course has elevated privileges- or the device couldn’t even run. Do you even hear what your saying?
Long winded and mostly besides the point.No, because it would eventually blow up in their face and they'd have even more backlash when all the infosec/antisec people poking it with sticks exposed what they're doing.
Being honest, Spotlight is kinda rubbish, it's what... 15, 16 years old now? It works as an app launcher, but fails to find simple things that find and grep can locate from terminal. It's not actually very good.
Other pieces of Apple which are honestly second-rate: Maps vs. Google Maps, hahahahahaha, it's a joke, people put up with Apple because of the illusion of privacy. Siri doesn't compare well with the offerings of Apple's competitors, people tolerate it, again, because of the illusion of privacy. Apple's entire ecosystem of "Home"whatever is a joke. I could go on, but won't bother.
Apple's vaunted security PR and walled garden is... just a narrative; obviously it doesn't actually work, since they're still 0wn3e by Pegasus.
Privacy has been a foundational piece of Apple's narrative which props up their brand.
The scary thing is ... what Apple does seem to actually be getting pretty good at, is ML. "Live Text" what a cool feature for the transition to Apple Surveillance.
This forum is an echo-chamber for people who drank the koolaid and already love Apple products. I would say the point we're at today, wherein the ACLU is on the opposite side of Apple, has sailed off over a cliff into extraordinarily bad narrative control on Apple's part.
The Pegasus group may be slightly upset, since Apple has usurped their business model and chosen to bend over for the governments of planet Earth; perhaps they can sue Apple for stealing their business plan and backdooring their own OS.
From a fiscal perspective... I don't care. I've already made a lot of money off AAPL and what comes next, depends entirely upon the market. If it tanks and walks off a cliff, oh well, I'll be dumping and shorting it simultaneously.
What really pisses me off, is I drank the koolaid too, and now I'll be left in the absolutely ludicrous position of jailbreaking my own property to kick Apple's crap out of the process table, running pi-hole to block because Little Snitch can't block Apple's own OS since Big Sur. And I've wandered far away from the landscape of "It Just Works."
Anyway, this is getting long, and as mentioned, our conversation is taking place within an echo-chamber which usually has nothing but great ♥️ for Apple; there's something wrong with that. As far as the rest of the world is concerned, please go share your observations with the 90+ privacy, civil rights, human rights orgs which have signed on so far to oppose Apple. I'm sure nobody read the white papers and They Just Don't Understand.
Apple’s illusion of privacy is getting harder to sell
Even iPhone users with nothing to hide could be forgiven for being a little creeped out that Apple will scan their photos and see if they match existing databases of known illegal pornographic images. Privacy experts called the idea a potential back door for governments to request or demand...bdnews24.com
Looked like a link and was presented like one. Apologies.
Apologies, perhaps I didn't express what I meant by, "This forum is an echo-chamber for people who drank the koolaid and already love Apple products." -- My point was that this is an Apple forum. Nearly everybody here already likes/loves Apple and their products.
And this: "I'm seeing plenty of people who range from "this makes me uncomfortable" to "I'm outta here.""
Was exactly my point. Apple is alienating their core customer base who usually feel they can do no wrong (including me, I agree with you).
Turned off family icloud, now just waiting to see if cook still goes through with it…guessing if they are going to shut this down it will be early next week. pretty much everyone has weighed in, except for the silence from google and the android phone makers … I guess they are waiting til they pull the trigger
Do you?
Your excuse for snooping is: its fine coz its the OS manufacturer? Incredible, just incredible…
Last edited:
Uhm... Don't understand it? I'm a retired SysAdmin with over twenty-five years in the field. Before that I was a software designer of everything from kernel drivers (multiple platforms), to applications and user interfaces. I've been on software development teams for both commercial production software and open source projects. During my tenure in systems and network administration I somewhat specialized in network security, including contributing enhancements to a couple different firewall products.
I'm pretty certain I understand it quite well, thank you very much. As does a goodly number of security researchers and privacy advocates that also object to what Apple plans.
I'll offer you the same challenge I've offered in a couple other threads on this issue: Can you cite one single credible security professional, organization, or group, or privacy group or organization, that's expressed support for Apple's plans?
The CSAM Detection system is very bad at scanning for weapons. It would work a bit better for national flags but there are still much better technology in the iPhone for catching that.
The CSAM Detection system can't really be used to find images within a certain category.