University Researchers Who Built a CSAM Scanning System Urge Apple to Not Use the 'Dangerous' Technology

[citysnaps]

@zkap I agree. I don‘t think the whole thing is about outside pressure.

I rather believe some high ranking execs believed this would be a good idea for some strange reason.

What is a bit disconcerting is the fact Apple is pretty mumm. No response to the open letters, no explanations on their motivations, nothing.
They seem rather tonedeaf and appear to contine on this bad path no matter what. I really really wonder why. Its tremendously stupid, nothing I‘d expect from highly smart people that their engineers are

Will you also be voting with your wallet? When? What will you be using instead?

 

[zkap]

Where are you going to go and when?

I'll see what's on offer, it will be Android for the lower price because I don't expect privacy anyway. I guess it will be next year, because for the rest of this year I will be paying off my M1 MBP and my father's iPhone 11. After that, when I see something that I like, I'll pull the trigger so it will be a gradual process. I am not in a hurry because I will not update any of my devices to this Fall's software (I'm not even updating to the current software that has nothing to do with CSAM), and all of the devices I have in the ecosystem can still continue to go strong for years, so whenever I switch it'll be good. I also don't expect to replace all of my devices, many will go because I won't be interested in replacing them. For example, the Apple TV and the HomePod Mini won't be replaced, as well as my AW4. Instead, it will be a traditional watch and a smart TV. For the time being I am making sure Apple sees as little of my money as possible until I start moving away from the hardware.

 

[zkap]

Will you also be voting with your wallet? When? What will you be using instead?

Are you going somewhere with this? Do we have a deadline? Just asking.

For me personally, I think the most powerful vote I can cast is deciding not to upgrade my iPad Pro and iPhone. Moved away from Apple Music but that's peanuts. Will move away from iCloud, but because of work it is a process and that is even smaller peanuts.

Is there a more aggressive way we should vote with our wallets?

 

[Mercury7]

I'll see what's on offer, it will be Android for the lower price because I don't expect privacy anyway. I guess it will be next year, because for the rest of this year I will be paying off my M1 MBP and my father's iPhone 11. After that, when I see something that I like, I'll pull the trigger so it will be a gradual process. I am not in a hurry because I will not update any of my devices to this Fall's software (I'm not even updating to the current software that has nothing to do with CSAM), and all of the devices I have in the ecosystem can still continue to go strong for years, so whenever I switch it'll be good. I also don't expect to replace all of my devices, many will go because I won't be interested in replacing them. For example, the Apple TV and the HomePod Mini won't be replaced, as well as my AW4. Instead, it will be a traditional watch and a smart TV. For the time being I am making sure Apple sees as little of my money as possible until I start moving away from the hardware.

Sounds like a good plan… same…. Unless apple backtracks this week… if they do I’ll find it in my heart to forgive ,they really have forfeited the deep trust I had though

 

[citysnaps]

Are you going somewhere with this? Do we have a deadline? Just asking.

For me personally, I think the most powerful vote I can cast is deciding not to upgrade my iPad Pro and iPhone. Moved away from Apple Music but that's peanuts. Will move away from iCloud, but because of work it is a process and that is even smaller peanuts.

Is there a more aggressive way we should vote with our wallets?

Nope. Just curiosity. It will be interesting to see if the few who commit will actually follow through.

 

[dk001]

Of course CSAM changes things, because it is in contrast to Apple's earlier claims about privacy and security. Clearly we disagree here, which is fine. If you ask me, when someone pitches privacy for years and then all of a sudden says "Oh yeah, about the photo library, funny thing...", it doesn't help their credibility. I am in the group that feels CSAM is fundamentally opposed to the privacy policy Apple marketed all these years. Which is why this changes things drastically, as I cannot trust them anymore because for me they went back on their promise to leave the iPhone alone.

About this suggestion that Apple could have installed something in secret years ago, I disagree. If you don't have any source for this, why suggest that it maybe happened? There are people who search iOS code for all sorts of irrelevant things, like clues to new devices, their colors and such. If there was scanning software in iOS, it would have been detected at some point because iOS is too big and attracts too much scrutiny for Apple to be able to hide something like that. If hidden and detected, that would have been worse for Apple in terms of user trust than announcing a much more drastic version of CSAM scanning. Remember thermal throttling and think what would happen in this case.

So no, we fundamentally disagree that this CSAM announcement is Apple's good will and that they could have done without it, because their business model in part relied on users believing Apple guards their privacy. You still believe Apple, which is your right, but I don't.

One other item to add to this, what Apple is looking to implement is beyong and more invasive than any other device manufacturer at this time.

 

[zkap]

@zkap I agree. I don‘t think the whole thing is about outside pressure.

I rather believe some high ranking execs believed this would be a good idea for some strange reason.

What is a bit disconcerting is the fact Apple is pretty mumm. No response to the open letters, no explanations on their motivations, nothing.
They seem rather tonedeaf and appear to contine on this bad path no matter what. I really really wonder why. Its tremendously stupid, nothing I‘d expect from highly smart people that their engineers are

I think they're riding it out. Cook is nowhere to be seen because he isn't likeable, which is why they sent Federighi to do an interview. That was Cook's job. They are looking for the least amount of interaction in hopes this blows over, which it probably will. I think the more they come out and fight this, the more chance it has of reaching mainstream media where regular people who aren't on MacRumours will read about it. So Apple does little and for the most part doesn't want to fan the flames. That's what it looks like to me.
Either that or they are being forced to do this and they can't or won't admit to it.

I don’t see how Apple is backtracking on its privacy stands here: they do a check before you upload files to their servers. That’s it. They don’t want to host illegal stuff on their servers, so they check by comparing it to a list of known images. They don’t apply AI, they don’t scan the content, there’s no mass surveillance, there’s no bending for government interference, … if they did server-side scanning I would be upset and consider turning off iCloud.

It is, in my view at least, because now the "What's on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" is "What's on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone, except..." and that last part is the problem. I don't necessarily think this particular technology is the actual problem, though it could be. I view this as a slippery slope and a problem in two ways: 1. Apple did something they never even suggested they would do and I for one never thought they'd do it, 2. it creates a psychological shift. If this is accepted, which it most likely will be by a majority of users, the next time Apple is covertly forced into something else, it won't be as shocking. It will be the same stuff, just about a different topic. See how people react to privacy violations in China - they all use WeChat, everyone can be under surveillance so who cares. That's the slippery slope, it's not just the prospect of abusing this technology (let's even say that cannot happen), but the idea, which will become normal, that Apple installs spyware/surveillance software/whatever you want to call it on the iPhone. Until now, unheard of. Next year, business as usual, only they'll scan for something else maybe.

 

[bobcomer]

Sounds like a good plan… same…. Unless apple backtracks this week… if they do I’ll find it in my heart to forgive ,they really have forfeited the deep trust I had though

Like you, the trust is gone, they're just another google, but if they backtrack, I probably will buy and make an iPhone 13 my secondary phone at least. If they don't, we'll see... The MBP purchase I was going to do next month is gone for now, no matter what happens. I wont be watching the Apple events next month either -- it's been a long time since I missed those.

 

[Jemani]

I don’t see how Apple is backtracking on its privacy stands here: they do a check before you upload files to their servers. That’s it. They don’t want to host illegal stuff on their servers, so they check by comparing it to a list of known images. They don’t apply AI, they don’t scan the content, there’s no mass surveillance, there’s no bending for government interference, … if they did server-side scanning I would be upset and consider turning off iCloud.

How about if they do server side “checking” and not scanning before you upload files to their server?

 

[jseymour]

That's about giving their customers choice; an option.

Have you tried reading back your own reasoning? On one hand you're arguing Apple is succumbing to government pressure to DO SOMETHING while, in the same breath, you're arguing they're not.

Fascinating logic, that.

I interpreted "more stuff" as others have been claiming;

If you'll notice, the member to whom you replied "liked" my response, which rather suggests you misinterpreted his question.

Also...it's not that Apple is so "all-fired" preventing CSAM; it's about the pressure being applied on Apple by the government to deal with it.

According to Apple, right? Hmmm...

The other option is giving the government access to iCloud and iPhones; either openly or via secret backdoor.

Find me the existing law under which the U.S. Government could force that. I'll wait.

Did you know Certain Legislators in U.S. Congress have been trying to force back-doors into encryption products in the U.S. for years and years? They've failed, miserably, every single time. This is because anybody who knows anything about any of this stuff knows it's A Very Bad Idea. Just like every last network security and privacy entity that's commented on Apple's plan knows it, also, is A Very Bad Idea. Every. Last. One. Of. Them.

Perhaps they just don't understand it

The clever system Apple came up deals with the CSAM pressure but stops short of wider government snooping.

c-l-e-v-e-r is a funny way of spelling "intrusive."

Whatever's true: I won't have it on my devices. So, when I can no longer avoid it, it'll be hasta la bye-bye Apple.

 

[dk001]

I don’t see how Apple is backtracking on its privacy stands here: they do a check before you upload files to their servers. That’s it. They don’t want to host illegal stuff on their servers, so they check by comparing it to a list of known images. They don’t apply AI, they don’t scan the content, there’s no mass surveillance, there’s no bending for government interference, … if they did server-side scanning I would be upset and consider turning off iCloud.

One last time: it isn’t the fact they are scanning photos. It is the fact the are scanning on my personal device. If Apple wants to scan, something not required by law, do it on their equipment.

 

[dk001]

I think they're riding it out. Cook is nowhere to be seen because he isn't likeable, which is why they sent Federighi to do an interview. That was Cook's job. They are looking for the least amount of interaction in hopes this blows over, which it probably will. I think the more they come out and fight this, the more chance it has of reaching mainstream media where regular people who aren't on MacRumours will read about it. So Apple does little and for the most part doesn't want to fan the flames. That's what it looks like to me.
Either that or they are being forced to do this and they can't or won't admit to it.



It is, in my view at least, because now the "What's on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" is "What's on your iPhone, stays on your iPhone, except..." and that last part is the problem. I don't necessarily think this particular technology is the actual problem, though it could be. I view this as a slippery slope and a problem in two ways: 1. Apple did something they never even suggested they would do and I for one never thought they'd do it, 2. it creates a psychological shift. If this is accepted, which it most likely will be by a majority of users, the next time Apple is covertly forced into something else, it won't be as shocking. It will be the same stuff, just about a different topic. See how people react to privacy violations in China - they all use WeChat, everyone can be under surveillance so who cares. That's the slippery slope, it's not just the prospect of abusing this technology (let's even say that cannot happen), but the idea, which will become normal, that Apple installs spyware/surveillance software/whatever you want to call it on the iPhone. Until now, unheard of. Next year, business as usual, only they'll scan for something else maybe.

Do this little thing and get them to accept it. Then expand it just a little bit and they’ll accept that. Then … Pretty soon you realize they have become something you would never had agreed to. Game of inches. Get your foot in the door.

 

[zkap]

Nope. Just curiosity. It will be interesting to see if the few who commit will actually follow through.

Some won't for sure. I already said I'm not moving away from my MBP because I can't stand Windows. For the rest of the ecosystem, I'll be sorry because I love it, but at the same time I don't expect it will be that difficult because other products are less expensive so I know whatever I buy in place of the iPhone, it will cost less than the iPhone. Decent Galaxy Buds are half the price of my Airpods Pro, so I'll manage somehow, particularly since all of my family members except my dad use Android, I've already bought those devices for them which is why I suspect I'm going in that direction.

 

[citysnaps]

Have you tried reading back your own reasoning? On one hand you're arguing Apple is succumbing to government pressure to DO SOMETHING while, in the same breath, you're arguing they're not.

Fascinating logic, that.

Not difficult to understand at all. Put your thinking cap on for a bit.

Will you be voting with your wallet? When?

 

[citysnaps]

Some won't for sure. I already said I'm not moving away from my MBP because I can't stand Windows. For the rest of the ecosystem, I'll be sorry because I love it, but at the same time I don't expect it will be that difficult because other products are less expensive so I know whatever I buy in place of the iPhone, it will cost less than the iPhone. Decent Galaxy Buds are half the price of my Airpods Pro, so I'll manage somehow, particularly since all of my family members except my dad use Android, I've already bought those devices for them which is why I suspect I'm going in that direction.

Reasonable response - thanks!

 

[jseymour]

Not difficult to understand at all. Put your thinking cap on for a bit.

I'm sorry, but I don't deal well with twisty logic.

Will you be voting with your wallet? When?

I have already (cancelled plans for nearly $3,000 in Apple product purchases [two Macs and an iPad]) and will be doing more as the time comes (will not be replacing existing Apple product with Apple product). Have also cancelled all paid Apple services (Apple TV+ [though for a somewhat different reason], increased iCloud storage, Apple Card) and various services included with the iThings, such as Apple Pay, Health, Siri, HomeKit, etc.

I'll miss my Apple Watch most of all It's been my constant companion for nearly four years and I love the thing. Well, loved. Now I more-or-less tolerate it for lack of an immediate acceptable substitute.

At this juncture I expect the only Apple product remaining in our household two years from now, if not sooner, will be the Apple TV 4ks - if even those.

 

[dk001]

Some won't for sure. I already said I'm not moving away from my MBP because I can't stand Windows. For the rest of the ecosystem, I'll be sorry because I love it, but at the same time I don't expect it will be that difficult because other products are less expensive so I know whatever I buy in place of the iPhone, it will cost less than the iPhone. Decent Galaxy Buds are half the price of my Airpods Pro, so I'll manage somehow, particularly since all of my family members except my dad use Android, I've already bought those devices for them which is why I suspect I'm going in that direction.

btw - my AirPodsPro work just fine on my Android.

 

[zkap]

Sounds like a good plan… same…. Unless apple backtracks this week… if they do I’ll find it in my heart to forgive ,they really have forfeited the deep trust I had though

Yes, me too. They don't have my trust, but if they roll it back, I won't be preparing my way out if I know the software isn't coming, though even in that case I wouldn't be purchasing new hardware as I'd be wary of what will happen next. Sadly, I don't think there's a way back for this. They announced it and it's Apple, they won't give up. If financial reasons motivated them, a small number of us won't put a dent into that. If they were forced into this by the government, that trumps the kind of "pressure" we can apply with angry e-mails. I'm afraid it's done.

 

[Jemani]

btw - my AirPodsPro work just fine on my Android.

Well, they do work, that is true, but not all the features. At least the Apple Music app on Android has Dolby Atmos music now that works with the AirPods. My PowerBeats Pro have a nice little Beats app, too. Either way plenty of Apple features don’t work on the Android though. It is a bummer.

 

[zkap]

btw - my AirPodsPro work just fine on my Android.

Indeed, though I've been planning on trying out different buds at some point. Flossy Carter reviews a lot of those, but I never seriously considered them because of how well the APP work with Apple devices. When the battery dies, I think I'll try a different manufacturer this time, particularly if the ecosystem is no longer an incentive.

 

[Mercury7]

How about if they do server side “checking” and not scanning before you upload files to their server?

Yep… that’s all we are asking for… if they just scan the server instead of our phone then all is good, its Obvious some still don’t understand the issue

 

[Jemani]

Yep… that’s all we are asking for… if they just scan the server instead of our phone then all is good, its Obvious some still don’t understand the issue

They don’t even need to scan the server. Just check all incoming uploads before they allow it to be stored. If they did this server side, I would be happy. I don’t want them doing it on my phone. If I have a way to manually do a check on my phone, without having to turn on crappy iCloud photos, I might be on board.

 

[nickdalzell1]

Sounds like a good plan… same…. Unless apple backtracks this week… if they do I’ll find it in my heart to forgive ,they really have forfeited the deep trust I had though

Since Apple didn't backtrack iOS 7 after the myriad complaints (and Yosemite despite a 135+ page thread here to boot) and basically said 'get used to it, you curmudgeon!' I doubt they will ever backtrack anything they consider 'progress'. Companies stopped caring about customer demand for over a decade. Now we are there to satisfy the companies, and the dumb masses will buy buy buy no matte what. They basically made themselves immune to bankruptcy and took advantage of the stupid out there who only see the brightly colored flashy ads begging them to 'buy the newest iPhone even if yours works perfectly fine!'

If only K-mart and Sears could have taken advantage of this! 😆

 

[Mercury7]

Nope. Just curiosity. It will be interesting to see if the few who commit will actually follow through.

I have not counted how many said they would leave over this, Ios15 will never see any of our devices though, can take that to the bank….the only uncertainty is how long I run ios14 before switching, already disabled iCloud

 

[nickdalzell1]

You might want to turn off Wifi and hope Apple won't silently load it on whenever you're not paying attention. I have always been able to defer, but not entirely stop an Apple Software Update from installing eventually, or worse, your apps will simply refuse to open until you do update. None of that happens on Android, thankfully.

I really miss the days when updates brought neat stuff, and were only possible via iTunes on a PC or Mac.

Mercury7, I see from your profile avatar that you're a fan of The Orville (Planetary Union icon). Great show, still waiting for a season 3.