University Researchers Who Built a CSAM Scanning System Urge Apple to Not Use the 'Dangerous' Technology

[Mercury7]

Since Apple didn't backtrack iOS 7 after the myriad complaints (and Yosemite despite a 135+ page thread here to boot) and basically said 'get used to it, you curmudgeon!' I doubt they will ever backtrack anything they consider 'progress'. Companies stopped caring about customer demand for over a decade. Now we are there to satisfy the companies, and the dumb masses will buy buy buy no matte what. They basically made themselves immune to bankruptcy and took advantage of the stupid out there who only see the brightly colored flashy ads begging them to 'buy the newest iPhone even if yours works perfectly fine!'

If only K-mart and Sears could have taken advantage of this! 😆

Yeah… kinda false hope, but if you give up your principles then all is lost…. Still kinda she’ll shocked they did this, We need Steve jobs to save Apple once again

 

[nickdalzell1]

We need a guy like Steve Jobs or even Scott Forstall back. I have doubts either will happen. Either way I'm not giving up my S20 FE (or my myriad of old phones I keep as backups, like the HTC Thunderbolt). I am too stubborn to 'move on to the future' since it looks entirely bleak. I'll prefer to stand out with my favorite old apps. They work. I don't cave to peer pressure.

 

[Mercury7]

You might want to turn off Wifi and hope Apple won't silently load it on whenever you're not paying attention. I have always been able to defer, but not entirely stop an Apple Software Update from installing eventually, or worse, your apps will simply refuse to open until you do update. None of that happens on Android, thankfully.

I really miss the days when updates brought neat stuff, and were only possible via iTunes on a PC or Mac.

Mercury7, I see from your profile avatar that you're a fan of The Orville (Planetary Union icon). Great show, still waiting for a season 3.

Honestly think it will be several years before any of my apps stop working but it is possible, because most of my apps I use do reach out to the net for data,

 

[nickdalzell1]

...And unlike with Android, you can't kill the server or background service in iOS that checks for updates on the App Store. I learned that one the hard way when my Little Caeser's app forced an impossible version on me (it wouldn't run on a device below iOS 13, I was stuck on 12) and just refused to open.

Android, Galaxy S4, stuck on Kitkat, no Play Services internet access, still works.

Can't run pretty much any third party app on iOS 6, the last and best version of true iOS IMO. Even iMessage and YouTube is broken. Meanwhile, my HTC Thunderbolt could still use YouTube via the browser.

 

[bushman4]

Always remember big brother is watching on your iPhone

 

[Mercury7]

We need a guy like Steve Jobs or even Scott Forstall back. I have doubts either will happen. Either way I'm not giving up my S20 FE (or my myriad of old phones I keep as backups, like the HTC Thunderbolt). I am too stubborn to 'move on to the future' since it looks entirely bleak. I'll prefer to stand out with my favorite old apps. They work. I don't cave to peer pressure.

Ive upgraded my Apple devices every year since the beginning…. Family of 4 so easily 4 to 5k hit a year apple will take from my Family

 

[09872738]

Will you also be voting with your wallet? When? What will you be using instead?

Kinda:

Computing: Ordered a Alienware X17; main OS Linux / KDE Plasma (ASi MBP 16 cancelled)
Phone: Cancelled plan to upgrade to iPhone 13 Pro; for now will continue to use iPhone X. Problem is my Apple Watch, which requires an iPhone. If they continue this path in the long term probably Calyx
iPad: no idea. I do not see any alternative

I‘m sad. Did not see this coming and do not really want to switch. Due to sensitive data (customers, courts) I have no choice though

 

[nickdalzell1]

I used to buy the next iPhone (had a brand new iPhone 4 after the 3GS) but after iOS 7 I went to Samsung who still clinged to naturey, skeuomorphic UI. I bought the next Galaxy S this and Note that until they, too, went flat. The S20 FE is the first new purchase from them in a long time, and they've (at least for the 2020 variant) brought the whole nature theme back, even the ringtone was inspired by nature again for the first time since 2012. It has a plastic back, and I can customize the ton out of it, and truly make it my own.

Same can't be said of iOS 14 on the 6S. Still looks iOS 7 overall, but with widgets. Not even good looking widgets, either.

I've voted with my wallet as well, by keeping all my money in it. I'm out of the consumerism game. It's unsustainable, bad for the planet, and there's nothing I consider an 'upgrade' anymore. I got everything I'd need for a lifetime. Happy to finally stagnate in peace. Enjoy life. Pity the masses...Now I just gotta stop those kids from running on my lawn!

 

[Mercury7]

Mercury7, I see from your profile avatar that you're a fan of The Orville (Planetary Union icon). Great show, still waiting for a season 3

Yes, I’m a big fan of the Orville, fun show, I got the Eagle moss xl ship, it’s very nice

 

[Mercury7]

...And unlike with Android, you can't kill the server or background service in iOS that checks for updates on the App Store. I learned that one the hard way when my Little Caeser's app forced an impossible version on me (it wouldn't run on a device below iOS 13, I was stuck on 12) and just refused to open.

Android, Galaxy S4, stuck on Kitkat, no Play Services internet access, still works.

Can't run pretty much any third party app on iOS 6, the last and best version of true iOS IMO. Even iMessage and YouTube is broken. Meanwhile, my HTC Thunderbolt could still use YouTube via the browser.

You can kill auto updates for apps… you cant stop it from checking but they won’t install unless I tell them too

 

[nickdalzell1]

Problem is it won't stop them from saying "Please update to newest version" like Little Caeser's and Walmart does. Or worse, you get a pop-up saying "this app requires iOS version x " even though a week ago it ran fine. It gets worse the longer you stay on old versions.



As I said, I got total confidence because I know the ins and outs of Android, and have killed any service that checks for updates. That won't stop an app from breaking if it ceases to exist (BlockBuster, Samsung Milk Music) or if the APIs change drastically, but that's a different issue.

 

[RobArtLyn]

When you think back a few short years I could never quite understand why people down my way were fighting so hard to keep the confederate flag flying, I mean what it had become had me thinking it should come down also…. But now statues are torn down, renaming military bases,trying to sandblast confederate figures from Stone Mountain…. Basically an effort to completely erase history…. I think at this point I would rather they still be fighting over the flag….. just an example of how things progress. Some think what Apple is doing is minor…. Once apple does this the big battles are coming and Many will be lost simply because of this one small step Apple is taking today

Nobody is trying to erase history. Just stop glorifying the bad guys.

 

[RobArtLyn]

What if you have a pic of pot or some drug in a state it is not legal in? Felony is a felony is a felony. What is to say at some point in the near future drug photo hashes are added (or anti-gov material, etc, etc, etc). The door is open for Apple to add whatever hashes to its check it wants to; or a government compels them to.

What makes you think there is such a thing as a generic pot photo hash? The hashes are for very specific photos and the nice independent researchers have already shown how easy it is for the photos that are being specifically searched for to be missed.

 

[monkeybagel]

As many have already said, I am also no longer going to purchase an Apple product because I cannot trust them. How do I know that PowerNap is not doing the same in OS XI? I don't. Once truth is broken, it is almost impossible to gain that hard-earned trust back. I have paid a premium to have that trust over the years on many, many Apple products. If they do not prove they are listening to their customers and abandon this technology, I am out. Including all subscriptions, iPads, iPhones, Mac Pros, and MacBooks.

This leaves little choice remaining for SmartPhones since BlackBerry is running Android. However I think BlackBerry will audit their code more than the others. Thinks may come full circle.

And I am typing this on Windows 11, which is a good OS. And we have some great FOSS OSs available.

 

[RobArtLyn]

If I have a way to manually do a check on my phone, without having to turn on crappy iCloud photos, I might be on board.

This might be the most confusing thing I have read in this thread. What possible purpose would scanning your own phone serve? Do you really think you could have CSAM on there without realizing or maybe you just forgot? Or are you looking for a way to voluntarily prove to Apple that you don’t have any but if you aren’t using iCloud why would you do that?

 

[MuppetGate]

They don’t even need to scan the server. Just check all incoming uploads before they allow it to be stored. If they did this server side, I would be happy. I don’t want them doing it on my phone. If I have a way to manually do a check on my phone, without having to turn on crappy iCloud photos, I might be on board.

This is what Rene Ritchie suggested: an intermediate relay server that does the CSAM check/reporting before sending the file to iCloud.

The only problem is cost. If this on-client scan is a way to save money by carrying out the check on the phone, then this isn’t going to help.

 

[pdoherty]

Unless Apple corrupts the app or installs a key logger: Yes. It is, literally, end-to-end encrypted.

With regard to Signal Messenger, does it supplant the built-in Messages app? And, if it does, how does it accomplish end-to-end encryption when chatting to Apple/Android devices that are using their native messaging apps? Do you just lose encryption in those cases (needs both ends to use Signal)?

 

[pdoherty]

That’s pretty much it… everyone will have to decide if this goes too far for them to stay…. I already made my decision, only thing is I probably will be running ios14 with no icloud for a while, fortunately the way this is rolling out gives me time to decide on new devices….. I imagine I could probably go a couple of years on ios14 if need be….. and there is still remote possibility Apple could reverse course next week…. SPeculated by some they will just claim technical issues and let it die instead of admitting the mistake

Things like this might give them a reason to cancel it - from skimming this it looks like this guy has come up with a way to make innocent images get flagged by the Apple algorithm. Which would mean they could spam the internet with thousands of these fake images and basically make the algorithm useless.

https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/p930wu

 

[jseymour]

With regard to Signal Messenger, does it supplant the built-in Messages app? And, if it does, how does it accomplish end-to-end encryption when chatting to Apple/Android devices that are using their native messaging apps? Do you just lose encryption in those cases (needs both ends to use Signal)?

It does not support preempting the iMessage app, because Apple doesn't allow it. It does support preempting the native MMS/SMS app on Android. Of course it doesn't encrypt messages to non-SPM recipients in that case. IIRC, it visually clues the user about insecure message exchanges.

 

[Mercury7]

Nobody is trying to erase history. Just stop glorifying the bad guys.

You seem to have completely missed the point

 

[RobArtLyn]

You seem to have completely missed the point

No, refuting your alleged analogy. If you want to make a point, back it up with reality, not a mischaracterization.

 

[LinusR]

You might want to turn off Wifi and hope Apple won't silently load it on whenever you're not paying attention. I have always been able to defer, but not entirely stop an Apple Software Update from installing eventually, or worse, your apps will simply refuse to open until you do update. None of that happens on Android, thankfully.

I really miss the days when updates brought neat stuff, and were only possible via iTunes on a PC or Mac.

Mercury7, I see from your profile avatar that you're a fan of The Orville (Planetary Union icon). Great show, still waiting for a season 3.

It is off-topic, but @Mercury7 and @nickdalzell1, The Orville is honestly amazing. My favourite show of recent times.

On-topic: I also agree, once we give up complaining how terrible this idea is we have lost. The fact that so many organisations and researchers point out how terrible this idea is, is very reassuring. We have to keep things moving. The more people *repeatedly* hear about it, the better.

 

[Schismz]

Nobody is trying to erase history. Just stop glorifying the bad guys.

Google seems to be. I'm pretty sure their current motto is: Be Evil. But won't rehash similar thoughts from other threads: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...he-dangerous-technology.2308132/post-30195620

So, anyway, deleting history. The usenet archives are part of the foundational history of the internet. Many years ago a variety of individuals donated these to Google. Google has seemingly shut off access to them and <whoops> deleted history. Because... it's hard to keep a search engine running, probably it just broke, and they're a small company lacking sufficient funding to purchase disk space.

Historical programming-language groups disappearing from Google

As Alex McDonald notes in this support request, Google has recently banned the old Usenet group [...]

lwn.net

Using Google Groups to Find Your Old USENET Postings

ldtm57.pairserver.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/comments/3ggogo

Some Usenet groups suspended in Goggle Groups - Google Groups Community

It kinda goes on and on, but pertains to one specific instance where a large search engine appears to be "deleting history" verbatim. History which was donated to their care in the first place. I'm not even touching the fact that they're editing reality. What controversial groups are they deleting? alt.binanries.pictures.erotica ? That's gone too, but they seem to be targeting lisp language groups and just losing mass quantities of messages because... who cares. Archive.org does a considerably better job with this.

Facebook, Twitter are kind of a bad joke, but I don't use social networks so won't bother to comment.

Big Tech colluding with Big Government = 1984, here, now.

 

[TheFluffyDuck]

This is a total moat and bailey argument. Use it for something indefensible (like CP) to get the technology normalised, then use it for less and less defensible means. We are talking about a company here that allows its icloud servers in the China to be hosted by the state, a state which is committing genocide as we speak and already employs facial recognition software. It's not hard to imagine China twisting Apples arm to use this against political dissidents or to oppress minorities.
Brining it back to the west, it cant have escaped many peoples attention that we live in an increasingly corporate authoritarian world. Where many day to day services for communcation, shopping, banking, and even transport are now in the hands of a few corporations. Given how ban happy silicon valley has become I can see this being used to defend "terms and conidtions", that target different political groups or ethnicities. I mean for crying out loud, misgendering somebody gets you banned off Twitter even if it happened "off the platform", but the literal Taliban that kills homosexuals is still on twitter for some reason. It would be trivial to use this technology to justify bans that happen "off the platform" as violating T&C.

 

[hanske68]

"Just because we can" is not a good reason to sniff around.