University Researchers Who Built a CSAM Scanning System Urge Apple to Not Use the 'Dangerous' Technology

[VulchR]

...
"if" and suppose" are doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

Absolutely true. Still do you want a world where that is possible? Frankly I believe the damage has already been done, and Apple is responsible.

 

[Mercury7]

The problem is that most Android phones are not privacy oriented. They scan everything you to to turn you into a marketing profile and sell your eyes to advertisers. There's no moral high ground from which to toss these stones.

Although true… the distinction is whether it’s client side or cloud side….as far as I know they can draw that distinction easily…. There is tons of stuff a company can ask permission to do and you have options to turn it off… location services etc…. Quite different than putting that stuff on your phone with no way to opt out….. just saying… excellent marketing opportunity…. And if Apple implements this it sure seems like the biggest opening Apple competitors have ever had. If Apple got a glimpse of it I think that would have more impact on their decision than the public outcry thus far. Follow the money

 

[Reed_College_Dropout]

This is why I hate Silicon Valley, and I am increasingly anti-tech, anti “tech bros”, anti tech-workers, anti tech-companies. The tech industry needs massive regulation, and where ever tech goes, it dictates, causes misery, and destroys. Seattle is now trapped under the thumb of Seattle. Tech *******s ruined San Francisco. Social Media has done absolutely NOTHING good for society. Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, Vrbo, are just *******s. New Yorkers, at least, were smart and gave Jeff Bezos the big middle finger and told him to get lost.

I agree with you 100%, and now this is spilling into Nashville, TN as well!

 

[Mercury7]

The US govt can order Apple to work with the FBI through a national security letter. An accompanying gag order would prevent Apple from talking about it.

This is correct, brought to you by the patriot act… the public would never know once this software is in place, Apple has been successful pushing back on feds by claiming it was impossible because no back door existed, once this is on people’s devices that all changes

 

[PBG4 Dude]

Apple is scratching their head wondering why the fervor of this has not diminished and people moved on.

Has the minority stopped screeching yet? All I see outside are torches and pitchforks.

 

[rme]

Well far from it actually, also, I really try to not go out calling people names when my argument doesn't have any actual legs to stand on.

Ok. Inform the FBI that they have no idea what they're talking about on their websites. https://www.fbi.gov/about/leadership-and-structure/international-operations https://vault.fbi.gov/National Security Letters (NSL)
I'm sure they will be be pleased.

 

[WiseAJ]

All I hear from all this is that there are scared pedophiles everywhere that like to use iCloud.

 

[VulchR]

...

That's a LOT of ifs. That's a lot of conspiracy. That's a lot of government effort.

I'm not saying in can't happen, just that it's so unlikely that I don't see how it feasibly could happen.

Look up 'Five Eyes'.

Apple is trying to stop governments from co-opting the CSAM scanning by (1) using nongovernmental organisations to provide the hashes and (2) using organisations from independent jurisdictions. Seems like a good plan, but suppose a country allows only one organisation to have the CSAM images, rather like the arrangement the US has now. Does that count as government control? And under an authoritarian regime is any organisation not under government control? And suppose Apple is required to by a country to use an organisation in a specified second country that just happens to be an authoritarian ally (e.g., PRC and North Korea, Russia and Belarus, Pakistan and Afghanistan, etc.)? What Apple says it will resist and what it actually will resist might differ.

 

[Ethosik]

There's that "could" word again. Which was my point, previously.

Still boils down to trusting Apple and its assertion: "Apple has strongly pushed back against such a possibility, saying it will refuse any such request from governments."

If you trust Apple, fine. If you don't, Vote With Your Wallet. I suspect no more than a tiny number of the "don'ts" won't.

It’s one thing to trust Apple. But if they are forced to do something from a court decision, it won’t matter how much we trust Apple. They will either need to comply, or face severe charges for not performing a court order.

 

[oldoneeye]

This is why I hate Silicon Valley, and I am increasingly anti-tech, anti “tech bros”, anti tech-workers, anti tech-companies. The tech industry needs massive regulation, and where ever tech goes, it dictates, causes misery, and destroys. Seattle is now trapped under the thumb of Seattle. Tech *******s ruined San Francisco. Social Media has done absolutely NOTHING good for society. Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, Vrbo, are just *******s. New Yorkers, at least, were smart and gave Jeff Bezos the big middle finger and told him to get lost.

It is depressing. I've worked for Si Valley and Seattle companies for the last 30 years on hardware..... we have made such massive technological strides, but hell - look what we've done with it

 

[Ethosik]

It is using approximate matching and hence the AI. Essentially it is using your phone as a pre-processor for network based AI.

Apple also states it was trained with hundreds of thousands of images.

 

[btrach144]

Apple is a bad guy now

 

[dgrey]

Look up 'Five Eyes'.

Apple is trying to stop governments from co-opting the CSAM scanning by (1) using nongovernmental organisations to provide the hashes and (2) using organisations from independent jurisdictions. Seems like a good plan, but suppose a country allows only one organisation to have the CSAM images, rather like the arrangement the US has now. Does that count as government control? And under an authoritarian regime is any organisation not under government control? And suppose Apple is required to by a country to use an organisation in a specified second country that just happens to be an authoritarian ally (e.g., PRC and North Korea, Russia and Belarus, Pakistan and Afghanistan, etc.)? What Apple says it will resist and what it actually will resist might differ.

Apple is engaging in a fools errand with this initiative.

 

[VulchR]

It’s one thing to trust Apple. But if they are forced to do something from a court decision, it won’t matter how much we trust Apple. They will either need to comply, or face severe charges for not performing a court order.

Frankly the only solution is to elect politicians who oppose this kind of surveillance, otherwise it's like asking a fox to guard the hen-house.

 

[Mercury7]

Absolutely true. Still do you want a world where that is possible? Frankly I believe the damage has already been done, and Apple is responsible.

Can you imagine that ad running…. Perfect, if I was rich enough I think I would run it myself, wake up microsoft ”On such-and-such a date Apple will release iOS 15 and you'll see why 2021 will be exactly like "1984."

 

[rme]

All I hear from all this is that there are scared pedophiles everywhere that like to use iCloud.

I'm sure these pedo's are grateful that they have friends that want to ensure their existing collections on iCloud remain safe.

 

[Ethosik]

The on-device encrypted CSAM database contains only entries that were independently submitted by two or more child safety organizations operating in separate sovereign jurisdictions, i.e. not under the control of the same government.

National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC) is the only non-governmental organization legally allowed to possess CSAM material. Since Apple therefore does not have this material, Apple cannot generate the database of perceptual hashes itself, and relies on it being generated by the child safety organization. The threat model explicitly assumes the possibility of non-CSAM images being included in the perceptual CSAM hash database provided to Apple: either inadvertently, such as through an error at a designated child safety organization, or maliciously, such as through coercion. It goes on and on, page 8 of Security Threat Model Review of Apple's Child Safety Features, is where it talks about protections against mis-inclusion. I know most aren't reading any actual data and just parroting what they're being told to think, but there's the paper for what it's worth.

See this is what is so fishy about the manual review process. Some part timer or contractor doing a manual review WITHOUT the CSAM image?

 

[ian87w]

All I hear from all this is that there are scared pedophiles everywhere that like to use iCloud.

You do realize that Apple basically made the assumption that every iPhone users, including yourself, to be a potential pedophile. If you like paying a premium for that "privilege," suit yourself.

 

[Sciomar]

Absolutely true. Still do you want a world where that is possible? Frankly I believe the damage has already been done, and Apple is responsible.

Responsible, no, complicit, potentially. Only history will tell.

This scanning has been around from other companies and Apple has taken part even before this newest iteration. With the steady development of new technology there comes a decision point, are you willing to potentially give up some privacy to gain some protections/reduced effort? Pardon the example, a robot vacuum scans your residence and develops a layout of your house. It is connected to other devices (maybe a thermostat) on your network and they all develop a pattern of life profile on you. It's 100% up to you whether you adopt this or not, there are other companies who might make an inferior device that does not scan or talk to other network devices, or you can lock down your network so nothing communicates out. There are other phone/lifestyle manufacturers out there who maybe aren't doing this CSAM thing or maybe they're hiding the fact they do it. We're seeing more and more of things popping up that should make everyone question where the line is, there is obviously a group here where this is their line. I've made concessions with my own personal life with some smart devices which I said I would never do. I did give up facebook and instagram, one of the better decisions I've made lol!

I know I seem to be making the argument for it, but I'm only sharing the information as it has been presented on the topic and not emotional talking points from other social media/news outlets. Their job is hyping up their viewers, the more sensationalized it is and frenzied they get you, the more $$$.

 

[dgrey]

Has the minority stopped screeching yet? All I see outside are torches and pitchforks.

I’d love to see:

• Incredibly low uptake of iOS and iPadOS 15.
• Protests outside of Apple Stores.
• iDevice bonfire events around the country where people gather, throw their iPhones, iPads, and any other Apple device they want into massive piles that are then set on fire.
• New device sales plummet, because nobody wants a new device with iOS 15 on it.

 

[ian87w]

There's basically a consensus that this is bad but Apple's gonna implement it anyway. That tells everything.

Maybe because it is clear for Apple that moving forward, they would be faced with the dilemma if they want to keep doing business in some countries, so they just decided to jump the shark altogether since money is, money.

 

[Mercury7]

It is.. probably because the midterm elections are coming and it's looking good for Republicans . I didn't realised it before but now I believe it. We know that big tech including Apple is a on the left side, funds the Democratic Party and are close friends with Democrats. It seems really fishy to come now with the technology that could censor the opposite opinion or the political opposition. If anti-social medias can do it, why not Apple?

Doubt it’s related to this but you are correct big tech is a branch of DNC, they are in the email chain for all moves and announcements, between them and the media it’s a sad time

 

[Wildkraut]

Hey, more screeching Voices of the Minority, how is that possible? 😱

These CSAM noobs simply have no clue!

/s

 

[femike]

So the only the barrier to stop this scanning from being re-purposed is Apple to say 'no'. What a laugh that is.
Apple has lied on the privacy issue so they can't be trusted. This scanning software will certainly be re-purposed because its the reason its installed on Apple devices, so that it can. CSAM is only being used as a tool to get this accepted. Also it has been revealed that Apple has already tested this in iOS 14. Whether it still is installed on the latest iOS 14, I don't know.

Apple has set a dangerous precedent. I hope people will vote against this by not buying new Apple gear (it installed on iPhone, macOS, iPad, Apple Watch) or at least don't upgrade your software.

 

[rme]

I’d love to see:

• Incredibly low uptake of iOS and iPadOS 15.
• Protests outside of Apple Stores.
• iDevice bonfire events around the country where people gather, throw their iPhones, iPads, and any other Apple device they want into massive piles that are then set on fire.
• New device sales plummet, because nobody wants a new device with iOS 15 on it.

The 3rd one is too 3rd reich-ish in my opinion. I suggest we just shred them and dump them in Apple's courtyard.