Updated Intel Product Pipeline Uncovered?

[SPUY767]

Socket P? The bugs kicked our ass on Planet P. (Starship Trooopers.)

Very promising, but Megahertz Myth or not, the industry still looks like its hit a wall at a little over 2ghz for a mobile processor. Not discounting dual core because I think its an awesome innovation, but at this point Moore's law is a joke. I hope Intel has something else up its sleeve in 2007.

Consider GPUs. GPUs are capable to calculating things many times faster than the fastest desktop GPU. It's just that they have a very limited instruction set and can't do that much. Moore's Law is not dead. If anything, it's been surpassed.

 

[jiggie2g]

I hope and suspect that the Macbook will go with Merom as soon as it is released, since the Merom is priced the same way as the current Yonah lineup. Apple now has to compete directly with Dell and other Winbox manufacturers, since it is using the same hardware. If Apple uses a Yonah in a Macbook and Dell offers a Merom-based laptop that's 30-40% faster for the same price or less, Apple is in trouble. So, if Apple continues to use Yonah (if Intel even continues to make it), it will have to drop the price of the Macbooks substantially, and I doubt that Apple is prepared to do that.

Look for the 1.66-1.83 (or maybe even 2) GHz Meroms in the next generation of Macbooks, since with the 20-30% speed boost over similarly-clocked Yonahs, even with a 10% drop in clock speed, they will still be faster, cooler-running and less expensive to make than the current models, will likely boost battery life and will offer 64 bit compatability.

The MBPs can all use Meroms clocked above 2 GHz for differentiation of lines, as well as their dedicated GPUs, larger (and maybe faster) HDs and more installed (and maximum) RAM.

I agree with Macbook going Merom asap , however ther is now reason to down clock the MB due to the fact that Merom will be clocked up to 2.33ghz on the high end. Apple can save the lower clocked CPU's for the Mini.

MBP 2.16-2.33ghz w/ GF 7600Go 128-256MB

MB 1.83-2.0ghz w/ G965 GPU

Mini 1.66-1.83 w/ G965 GPU

 

[andiwm2003]

....................................

While initial Merom CPU's will use 667 Mhz Front Side Busses that exist today, a Q2 2007 refresh and new "socket P" rollout is slated to bump that speed to 800 Mhz.
....................................

that should answer a lot of the "should i buy now or wait for merom" questions. the next update is already around the corner and the new chipset and FSB should make everything a little bit faster again. so there is no reason to wait now because there will always be something faster in less than 6 month. it's not like motorola/ibm anymore where you had large changes once in a while. now the changes are often. intel was the right choice.

 

[nodmonkey]

While initial Merom CPU's will use 667 Mhz Front Side Busses that exist today, a Q2 2007 refresh and new "socket P" rollout is slated to bump that speed to 800 Mhz.

Can someone more technically minded inform me how this front side bus difference will affect the performance of the machines running with these chips? I don't know what a front side bus is; will the performance difference between these machines be significant or subtle?

 

[Balli]

Look for the 1.66-1.83 (or maybe even 2) GHz Meroms in the next generation of Macbooks, since with the 20-30% speed boost over similarly-clocked Yonahs, even with a 10% drop in clock speed, they will still be faster, cooler-running and less expensive to make than the current models, will likely boost battery life and will offer 64 bit compatability.

The MBPs can all use Meroms clocked above 2 GHz for differentiation of lines, as well as their dedicated GPUs, larger (and maybe faster) HDs and more installed (and maximum) RAM.

The thing is, I don't see Apple lowering the clock-speeds of current MacBooks when they transition to Meroms. I know that the Meroms are better processors, but the average Joe Blog who visits the Apple Store won't.

My guess is 2.0Ghz and 2.13Ghz Meroms in the MacBooks.

 

[cyberdogl2]

Hopefully this means I won't have to wait as long for a more-Vista-ready macbook.

 

[aegisdesign]

Finally one of you macheads got what i've been saying all this time , in single CPU configurations woodcrest offers no perfromance advantage over Conroe ...it is in fact more expensive for apple to use these instead of conroe and makes no sense if you are not going multi-socket. This is just wishful thinking from macmonkeys who want to extend thier ePenises with bragging rights.

Nothing to do with bragging rights. The current top end PowerMac G5 is probably faster than any Conroe based machine so unless Intel starts allowing desktop class chips to be used multi-socket then the only option for a machine faster than the outgoing year old G5 is Woodcrest.

Intel have not done that since the Celerons of 1999 or so when you could run dual celerys.

Maybe they'll use both though. Conroe in the two base dual-core models and Woodcrest in the Quad replacement.

It'll be interesting to see if they use Conroe in the iMac too instead of Merom.

 

[danielwsmithee]

Fsb

I was wondering the same thing about the FSB. Why is it that Intel doesn't go the same route the G5 went and have the FSB at half the processor speed? Are intels system interconnects lacking? The G5s and I think AMD use Hypertransport, what is Intel using?

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe one of the differences is the Quad pumped bus that intel uses. On intel you transfer four bits across the FSB per clock cycle, rather then just one bit for IBM. So a 667 Mhz intel FSB is actually a 166 Mhz clock. The difference lies in the clock multiplier internal to the chip. Intel uses a much higher multiplication 166 Mhz -> 2 Ghz (Intel x12) 1 Ghz -> 2Ghz (IBM x2). I may be off on some of the details, but I believe using a lower clock frequency on pads (external pins) allows intel to increase their yield (which drives down price).

 

[jiggie2g]

Can someone more technically minded inform me how this front side bus difference will affect the performance of the machines running with these chips? I don't know what a front side bus is; will the performance difference between these machines be significant or subtle?

The faster FSB will not matter unless the CPU is Bandwidth starved, which is not the case with any Core 2 CPU(woodcrest/conroe/merom) all perform the same clock 4 clock the guys at XtremeSystems.org have proven this. FSB becomes an issue when clock speed is ramped up and more bandwidth is need for processing information.

So far Conroe has already been overlocked to 5ghz by Tam of TeamJapan http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101190&page=6&conroe

seems that intel not only managed to increase Performance per cylce and lower power consumption but found a way to implement Netburst's crazy clock speed ramping, this is truely an amazing chip the best since Alpha.

This Fall the New Gigahertz War will begin....

 

[mike2q]

Now I'm glad I didn't wait for Merom and bought a Macbook now. For the entire next school semester I'll have a blazing fast Mac laptop and won't have to "limp along" my old machine. When the core 2 duo's come out I won't have to get onto these forums to read about rev A problems. Then when the bus gets a bump to 800mhz in november I'll just be finishing up my semester. I'll wait until January when those chips get a price drop and sell my MB for a 17" MBP with a 2.33ghz 64bit chit with a 800Mhz bus at the discounted price. Life will be good.

 

[Core Trio]

Hopefully this means I won't have to wait as long for a more-Vista-ready macbook.

I am without speech.

 

[danielwsmithee]

... Not discounting dual core because I think its an awesome innovation, but at this point Moore's law is a joke. I hope Intel has something else up its sleeve in 2007.

You don't understand Moore's Law very well then do you

Moore's Law only states that IC complexity will double every two year not the clock frequencies will double. The dual-core innovation is in fact a fulfillment of Moore's Law. Two years from now with Quad-Core processors you could say you will have another fulfillment of Moore's Law, twice the processor for the same price.

I'm sorry but you appear to be a victim of the Mhz myth.

 

[jiggie2g]

Nothing to do with bragging rights. The current top end PowerMac G5 is probably faster than any Conroe based machine so unless Intel starts allowing desktop class chips to be used multi-socket then the only option for a machine faster than the outgoing year old G5 is Woodcrest.

Intel have not done that since the Celerons of 1999 or so when you could run dual celerys.

Maybe they'll use both though. Conroe in the two base dual-core models and Woodcrest in the Quad replacement.

It'll be interesting to see if they use Conroe in the iMac too instead of Merom.

Where did I ever mention dual conroe's , did u even read what i wrote correctly. i was speaking of single cpu configurations. Woodcrest would offer no advantage and even cost more at a lower clock speed.

Apple will most likely use(as i've said many times) woodcrest at the very top(3ghz x 2 ) , then two conroe models to fill the rest.

MacPro

$3299 Quad Core / 2 x Xenon 5160(3.0ghz) 4MB L2 1333 FSB (Woodcrest)

$2499 DC X6800(2.93ghz) 4MB L2 1066FSB (Conroe)

$1999 DC E6700(2.67ghz) 4MB L2 1066FSB (Conroe)

Conroe will never see light of day in an iMac when all is needed for Merom is a cpu swap.

 

[Multimedia]

Merom MacBooks Will Retain Same Speed Labels But 2GHz Merom Is Way Faster And Cooler

The thing is, I don't see Apple lowering the clock-speeds of current MacBooks when they transition to Meroms. I know that the Meroms are better processors, but the average Joe Blog who visits the Apple Store won't.

My guess is 2.0Ghz and 2.13Ghz Meroms in the MacBooks.

Yes they won't lower them. But they won't raise them either because there is a radical increase in the price of a 2.16GHz Merom vs the 2GHz and below ones - more than 40% higher. Notice the 2GHz Merom also has the 4MB L2 shared cache while the 1.83GHz Merom retains a 2MB L2 shared cache. So the speed LABELS will not change while the 2GHz Merom MacBook will PERFORM significantly faster.

I agree with Macbook going Merom asap , however there is no reason to down clock the MB due to the fact that Merom will be clocked up to 2.33ghz on the high end. Apple can save the lower clocked CPU's for the Mini.

MBP 2.16-2.33ghz w/ GF 7600Go 128-256MB

MB 1.83-2.0ghz w/ G965 GPU

Mini 1.66-1.83 w/ G965 GPU

This makes perfect sense. Thanks for reminding me I'm not alone guys. Also note the cache difference, from 2GHz on up, I mention above. And it's a way for the whole line to go 64-bit in time for the Holiday shopping season. I agree wholeheartedly. Let us Pray...

 

[CommodityFetish]

Meroms in Macbooks

I agree with Macbook going Merom asap , however ther is now reason to down clock the MB due to the fact that Merom will be clocked up to 2.33ghz on the high end. Apple can save the lower clocked CPU's for the Mini.

MBP 2.16-2.33ghz w/ GF 7600Go 128-256MB

MB 1.83-2.0ghz w/ G965 GPU

Mini 1.66-1.83 w/ G965 GPU

I agree we will see Merom Macbooks asap as well. Here are other factors pointing to this:

a.) the new chips are the same price as the current batch. No reason Apple won't continue their practice of maintaining general price points for better and better machines.

b.) now that the macbook has replaced the PB 12" apple can't afford a big gap between the MB and MBP on the CPU. We see this in the high speed CPUs that Apple put in the Macbook from the start. In general, with the frequent speed bumps, apple seems committed to keeping up with the latest from Intel. It seems clear that if anything apple is choosing to differentiate MB from MBP in the graphics department with GPU and screen size, (along with high end extras like the expansion card slot, etc)

c.) apple originally wanted to have the Merom/Conroe/Woodcrest line as their entry into the world of intel chips. Since they were not going to be out soon enough, they went ahead with Yonah to get the transition moving sooner. So I think apple will really jump on this new generation of processors which they've had in their sights all along. The better performance per watt roadmap from the first Intel Stevenote really kicks in with these chips, so I think apple will not hesitate to get them into as many machines as they can, especially portables.

Here's hoping. I'd love to see a Merom MB in time for my fall semester!

 

[aegisdesign]

Can someone more technically minded inform me how this front side bus difference will affect the performance of the machines running with these chips? I don't know what a front side bus is; will the performance difference between these machines be significant or subtle?

Not a lot.

An Intel FSB is 'Quad Pumped' so the actual speed of a 667Mhz bus is 167Mhz. The same speed as a G4. The difference is, it fetches 4 bits of info 167 million times a second instead of just 1 bit of info.

The FSB speed affects how quickly data can be retrieved from memory into the CPU. An 800Mhz (ie 200Mhz in Intel terms) bus therefore is about 16.5% quicker than a 667Mhz(167Mhz) bus and therefore shift 16.5% more data in the same time. In the Core chips that means 6.4GB/s instead of 5.3GB/2

The G5 bus, to be complete, operates at half the CPU speed so in the case of the 2.5Ghz G5, it's running at 1.25Ghz and it has two FSBs each capable of 10GB/s in one direction at a time only though.

However, the CPU has a cache which stores the most accessed data on the CPU itself and unless you're shifting very large amounts of data, FSB speed rarely makes that big a difference since most code fits in the cache. If you were processing huge amounts of video or sound and you had extremely fast hard disks you might see some improvements though.

 

[ImAlwaysRight]

As much as I would like the MacBook to go Merom ASAP, I think Apple might use the Merom as a way to differentiate the MBP line from MB until Leopard ships - perhaps even longer.

Well, well, Multi, glad to see that you're finally coming around to my side of the fence, that MacBooks will still have Yonahs into 2007 to differentiate them from MBP. And it's only been a few weeks!

Posted 05-07-2006, 07:06 PM -
[Core 2 Duo] has got to go down as one of the DUMBEST names ever. July for Desktop and August for Mobile.

Posted 05-14-2006, 05:52 PM -
I do believe that by September-October MacBooks will have Merom Core 2 Duo inside. I do not believe Core 2 Duo will be held back until next year in MacBooks.

Posted 05-16-2006, 03:46 PM -
My GUESS is Merom will be in MacBooks by November - about 6 months from now.

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

 

[daneoni]

Re-Edit. Wrong forum. I think its wise to buy a MacBook now and upgrade to merom next year christmas period or even MWSF 08. When CS3 would be out, vista would be shipping, Leopard would be more stable and Merom would be on the Santa Rosa platform with 800MHZ FSB . Good times

 

[zippo]

Wait or Not Wait - that is the question...

Re-Edit. Wrong forum. I think its wise to buy a MacBook now and upgrade to merom next year christmas period or even MWSF 08. When CS3 would be out, vista would be shipping, Leopard would be more stable and Merom would be on the Santa Rosa platform with 800MHZ FSB . Good times

I have PB 12" 867MHz. I am using it for browsing and some multimedia design (iLife, iWeb etc). It approaches its end of life as long as my needs grow.

I need to do leeeeaaaaap in platform choice. For me it would be MBP 17", Merom on Santa Rosa chipset. Do you think it is worth torturing myself for another year or so with PB 12"??

Wait or Not Wait - that is the question...

 

[Multimedia]

I Am Leaning Toward Merom MacBooks This Fall Only Because That's What I Want

Well, well, Multi, glad to see that you're finally coming around to my side of the fence, that MacBooks will still have Yonahs into 2007 to differentiate them from MBP. And it's only been a few weeks!

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

Truthfully, I can't make up my mind IAR. I don't want you to be right. But I can see how you might be. On the other hand, several here have persuaded me it's Merom this Fall for MB. So I really have no fixed opinion on what will happen and hope it's Merom sooner than later.

In other words, I see both sides of the argument and will understand why Apple does what they do no matter which course of action they choose. But I want them to switch to Merom across the whole line ASAP and not hold them back for marketing and product differentiation reasons. God knows it won't be for cost reasons unless someone is counting pennies. There are plenty of other ways to differentiate the whole line.

 

[Multimedia]

12" 867MHz PB Is Very Weak Now

I have PB 12" 867MHz. I am using it for browsing and some multimedia design (iLife, iWeb etc). It approaches its end of life as long as my needs grow.

I need to do leeeeaaaaap in platform choice. For me it would be MBP 17", Merom on Santa Rosa chipset. Do you think it is worth torturing myself for another year or so with PB 12"??

Wait or Not Wait - that is the question...

In your case I would say buy the 2GHz MacBook now and then sell it when your dream 17" ships next Spring. Consider the difference between purchase and sale prices rent for more power now. But only because your 12" is so terribly weak.

 

[AcousticDoc]

I am very confused as to the benefits of Merom vs yonah. Is it just a chip that can produce faster performance? OR are there other perks like battery life, heat reductiopn and stuff? SHould I buy a macbook now or wait until it gets merom(I am currently without a laptop)?

 

[Multimedia]

Wait How Long? Is The $64 Question

I am very confused as to the benefits of Merom vs yonah. Is it just a chip that can produce faster performance? OR are there other perks like battery life, heat reductiopn and stuff? Should I buy a macbook now or wait until it gets merom(I am currently without a laptop)?

If you need a laptop now MacBook is a great value. Yes to all of the above you wonder about. But how long before MacBook goes Merom is, as you can see above, anybody's guess.

 

[AcousticDoc]

How much battery life can we expect from a merom chip? Yonah and G4 chips have the same exact abttery life...I was dissapointed.

 

[jiggie2g]

I am very confused as to the benefits of Merom vs yonah. Is it just a chip that can produce faster performance? OR are there other perks like battery life, heat reductiopn and stuff? SHould I buy a macbook now or wait until it gets merom(I am currently without a laptop)?

If you need a notebook now then buy a macbook. there is nothing wrong with the current model , for $1299 you are basically getting a notebook that out performs a dual 2ghz G5.

As for your Merom vs Yonah question. you get about a 20% performance boost clock 4 clock with Merom vs a Yonah cpu.