Urgent Advice Needed RE: Ebay RAM Sale

[sound kev]

Put yourself in his position- what would be fair? Clearly he has bad ram. Maybe it was damaged in shipping (doubtful), maybe he damaged it (possible), maybe it was defective when you prepared and packaged it (possible). I havent used Techtool Pro for memory testing, but I have used memtest, and it basically needs to run overnight to rule out memory defects.

true .
i can accept all of those scenarios cutterman .
however , from my perspective - the RAM was more than likely inadvertently damaged by the buyer (due to reasons already discussed).
In which case , i'm finding it very hard to accept that i should have to foot the bill for someone else's negligence !


there is also the possibility that he is using mixed blends of RAM ... he already stated that he'd tried many different "configurations" .

In order to ascertain what RAM he was already using , i asked him right at the start . He didn't reply to that question .

I also asked him to describe his installation process , which he never did .

I'd be interested to learn if anyone has ever come across Kernel Panics etc due to mixing and matching of RAM ?

 

[cutterman]

In my experience, mostly with PC motherboards, incompatible ram either wont boot or wont be recognized by the bios at boot up. This certainly can happen even if the memory specs are the same- some motherboards are "picky" about memory. However, random freezes and kernel panics are indicative of a bad cell(s), and are exactly the same symptoms I had with a bad ram stick, which was only 3 weeks old. It would be appropriate to try different "configurations" of the available ram and run the memory tester to identify the bad stick.

So I guess another possibility is that the ram went "bad" through no ones direct fault.

 

[sound kev]

In my experience, mostly with PC motherboards, incompatible ram either wont boot or wont be recognized by the bios at boot up. This certainly can happen even if the memory specs are the same- some motherboards are "picky" about memory. However, random freezes and kernel panics are indicative of a bad cell(s), and are exactly the same symptoms I had with a bad ram stick, which was only 3 weeks old. It would be appropriate to try different "configurations" of the available ram and run the memory tester to identify the bad stick.

So I guess another possibility is that the ram went "bad" through no ones direct fault.

thanks for that insight Cutterman .

in the case of your bad cell(s) scenario , the question is : who should pay ?

lets not forget , this is sold on ebay as 'second hand goods' and with any 'used' purchase there are additional risks .

i feel sorry that this has happened , it could well be a case of pure bad luck but from my point of view , the RAM left me 'as described' - once in the hands of the courier it's their responsibility . Once in the hands of the buyer , it's his responsibility ...

that's not to say i may not still end up paying for this 🙁

 

[maflynn]

The problem is that from the buyer's perspective he sees it completely different. He installed ram be bought from ebay and its not working.

In the end, I think if he disputes this, the odds are high that paypal/ebay will side with him. The benefit of the doubt goes towards the buyer. He doesn't have to PROVE that he didn't do anything wrong, but you have prove that the ram was functioning before shipping it out.

 

[philipma1957]

The problem is that from the buyer's perspective he sees it completely different. He installed ram be bought from ebay and its not working.

In the end, I think if he disputes this, the odds are high that paypal/ebay will side with him. The benefit of the doubt goes towards the buyer. He doesn't have to PROVE that he didn't do anything wrong, but you have prove that the ram was functioning before shipping it out.

the seller has to prove more then the ram was good when he handed it to the shipper he has to prove that the buyer received good ram.

(ie it shipped un harmed) which means ultimately the seller will most likely lose.

 

[sound kev]

a hypothetical question :

i agree to refund the buyer and the RAM arrives back with physical damage ie 'burned or melted' as described by philipma1957 ?

what do i do ?

i have LOTS of quality photos .

the unique serial numbers are also clearly visible .

i know that after receiving the returned RAM i have three days to make a refund .

 

[AppleMatt]

I have been selling on eBay UK for nearly 10 years and am legally trained.

I think your best option here is to ask him to return the RAM and offer a partial refund. As has been stated multiple times, buyers are in a bubble of invincibility when it comes to eBay and PayPal - they literally have to burn your house down before they get blame. There are thousands of entirely unjust cases - see eBay UK's own discussion forums - but that's the way it is.

If you're lucky the RAM will work fine when you get it back, and it's just his installation that is causing the problem. If you're unlucky he'll post you am empty box or broken RAM (check to make sure it is the RAM you sent him).

One thing I will say that lends credence to his argument; he's claiming only one is broke, and he offered to return it. That's fairly plausible.

If the RAM is returned clearly damaged? I'm not sure of the PayPal position, but I expect the refund will close the case. You can't re-open a closed case. So you'd be screwed, and if you really wanted to, have to pursue him with a letter before action (you'd win, but not sure I'd bother suing someone for £200).

I'm really sorry this has happened, but unfortunately sellers consistently get absolutely screwed by eBay. You can try and fight it, but you'll waste a hell of a lot of energy and time for something you can't change the outcome of. From a legal standpoint, eBay have long maintained they are just agents bringing buyers and sellers together so are exempt from liability. However, there's increasing belief that the level of involvement and control they have in the contract formation and execution - which is leading to thousands of legally incorrect and unjust decisions - has created legal obligations. It's just up to someone to have a test case. Unfortunately, as most auctions are low value, no-one's going to take this to the Court of Appeal (which costs tens of thousands of pounds in legal fees alone). So, like letting agents in the UK, eBay exist in a legal bubble where they can make the rules up as they go along and get away with it.

AppleMatt

 

[sound kev]

Massively appreciated that post AppleMatt .

As much as it's not what i want to hear - after scouring the web for hours it more or less sums up everything i've read .

Ebay - a buyers playground ... sellers beware .

I think i'm ready to offer him half of the final fee in exchange for the (possibly) damaged module .

Just waiting for him to send me his system profiler report before i make the offer .
He's been very reluctant to send it (i've asked him three times) so i'm clinging to the faint hope that he's hiding something .

cheers .

 

[Gomff]

Sound Kev, I'm also sorry about your predicament and sympathize totally. I've sold various electronic items via ebay without incident but reading this thread makes me wonder whether I have been lucky to avoid your experience in this case.

My gut feeling is that the buyer may well have unwittingly damaged the RAM and is perhaps convinced that it was already damaged when they received it. My reasoning is that they offered to retry everything before asking for a refund, rather than just demanding a refund more aggressively and backing it up with threats and so on, which would perhaps give away prior experience in ebay disputes.....I don't know, just a hunch I guess.

I think it's also perfectly possible that you could get the RAM back and it works just as before and it's an issue with his RAM config somehow. Either way, I would suggest trying a sensible and conciliatory approach along the lines of "Look, I sold you this in good faith, I know it was working when it left me. Obviously something has happened between that point and when you installed it so let's split the difference". You could also pursue a postal insurance claim as well.....That's what it's there for.

Whatever way you decide to handle this, Good luck mate. Maybe next time Craig's list could be worth considering....The UK site has a burgeoning electronics & computers section and there's no paypal in site.

 

[sound kev]

Hey , many thanks Gomff for another very helpful reply .

My gut instinct was that something wasn't right from the start .
Others may disagree .
Within a couple of hours of delivery the buyer was asking for my address and a full refund .
After my reply he then said :

'For the time being let me spend some more time trying to get them working and lets re-visit this early next week and hopefully by then I can have some positive news for you'


He didn't actually do as he said .
While checking my emails on Sunday evening i saw he had opened an Ebay Resolution Centre Case which i thought was pretty rude considering we had exchanged civil emails up till then in which i had offered him advice that he appeared to appreciate ... followed by the above statement about re-visiting this early next week .

This morning I have emailed him directly - once again requesting a System Profiler Report (gained with just my RAM installed) .

In an earlier message he said the following :

Buyer's message:
"I'm not interested in having an argument with the seller. I am familiar with the installation of ram and this is the first instance where I have discovered a fault. I don't dispute how it shows up in System Profiler, as it wasn't until I ran Rember (a dedicated Ram testing software) that it found the fault within the ram that was causing the Kernel Panics and shut downs.



sounds as if he has run the System Profiler and the RAM has shown up as OK ?

it would certainly explain why he has resisted sending me the report .

 

[cutterman]

Just because the ram shows up in system profiler does not mean it's good. The faults occur during the course of reads and writes to the specific region of the memory that's bad. The machine may boot just fine and seem normal when not under load.

I get the sense your buyer is an experienced computer user and not deliberately trying to rip you off.

 

[Gomff]

Hmm. Now I'm a bit more suspicious of the buyer from your last post Kev. Has he confirmed to you that he's run his system with just your RAM in it and that it has produced shut downs / Kernel Panics?

I have a strong suspicion that provided he returns the exact RAM sticks that you sold him, that you will find they're fine. Gut feeling is that it's an issue with his system somehow.

TBH....If I were in your shoes I'd cut my losses and give the guy his refund.....It's hard work building up a good feedback score on ebay and not worth jeopardizing it over one deal like this.

And again, maybe Craig's List could be an option for the future. I'm sure ut has it's own pitfalls but they seem to be the opposite of those on ebay. Paypal is a pain in the backside these days.....🙁

 

[philipma1957]

....
I have a strong suspicion that provided he returns the exact RAM sticks that you sold him, that you will find they're fine. Gut feeling is that it's an issue with his system somehow.

TBH....If I were in your shoes I'd cut my losses and give the guy his refund.....It's hard work building up a good feedback score on ebay and not worth jeopardizing it over one deal like this.

And again, maybe Craig's List could be an option for the future. I'm sure ut has it's own pitfalls but they seem to be the opposite of those on ebay. Paypal is a pain in the backside these days.....🙁

I don't gamble anymore, but if I had to make a bet I would bet on the above. I used to get a ton of 4gb ram sticks from www.superbiiz.com ddr2 1066 200 pin for mac minis and imacs. They also worked in macbook pros. Every once in a while a stick would work in a mini and work in an imac but fail in a macbook pro. Took me a while to figure out why. The sticks did not like ocz ssd's if they were in a macbook pro. I had to take back 3 pairs of sticks and all of them worked in my mac mini's and my imac I sold them all as mac mini sticks and had 0 problems. If both of you are being complete and honest it could be his machine has something that will not work with your sticks. Best to refund and hope. Good luck with this, Phil

 

[sound kev]

I don't gamble anymore, but if I had to make a bet I would bet on the above. I used to get a ton of 4gb ram sticks from www.superbiiz.com ddr2 1066 200 pin for mac minis and imacs. They also worked in macbook pros. Every once in a while a stick would work in a mini and work in an imac but fail in a macbook pro. Took me a while to figure out why. The sticks did not like ocz ssd's if they were in a macbook pro. I had to take back 3 pairs of sticks and all of them worked in my mac mini's and my imac I sold them all as mac mini sticks and had 0 problems. If both of you are being complete and honest it could be his machine has something that will not work with your sticks. Best to refund and hope. Good luck with this, Phil

thanks Phil .

I would like this to be the case .

I'm currently waiting to hear back from Ebay .

 

[sound kev]

Apologies for the long delay but for the benefit of anyone who may find themselves in this kind of situation in the future i thought i'd update this thread now the issue has finally been resolved .

So Ebay gave my buyer a full refund - apparently they do this if Paypal are unable to recover the full amount from the sellers linked account ... which in my case they couldn't as i had transferred it into another account .

They then issued me with an invoice for the full amount ... with the threat that the debt would be passed on to a collection agency if not paid up .

At this point i was ready to call it quits and pay the money ... until ...
the seller returns the RAM to me and it's covered in grease/oil .
I could not believe it ! this stuff was literally everywhere .
As far as i'm concerned it's ruined .
I haven't got a clue what it is or why it's there .
Maybe it's a lubricant or a cleaning fluid - i'm flummoxed .

I immediately lodged an appeal - which has taken MONTHS !!!

I sent in photographic and documentary evidence to backup my counter claim .

Soon after this , my account was suspended .

The following weeks/months have been spent phoning, emailing and writing to Ebay . I have been lied to , fobbed off and passed from pillar to post .
All the while i have kept detailed transcripts of every conversation - dated , logged etc ... very important, as without these i believe i would still be going round in circles now .
A few days ago i finally spoke to someone in customer services who made a judgement on my appeal - in my favor .
So Ebay swallow the cost .

I definitely would not have gone through all this if i felt the fault laid with me. It was a matter of principle . I believe this buyer damaged the RAM and tried to blame me .

The only disappointment now is that Ebay are adamant that they can't remove the negative feedback which was left for me by the buyer ...
a ludicrous scenario really , seeing as my appeal was upheld and i was cleared of any wrong doing . I'm working on it though .

As a final piece of advice to anyone like me who is selling on Ebay , i would just reiterate what has already been said here - take lots of photos of your item before dispatch .. run as many software tests as possible (backup the results) ... make sure it is packed extremely well (photograph it in it's packed state) and finally , make sure it is sent fully insured and signed for at the other end .
You can still end up falling foul of an unscrupulous buyer , but at least you have a chance of recovering your money at the end 😎

Thanks and Best of luck 😀

 

[philipma1957]

first off thanks for getting back to us. well it is a shame for the aggravation but you were right it was damage done by him.

don't feel so bad right now I have a case for 1200 usd going on. 3 weeks and waiting. I will win it but will have to wait at least 15 more days for my money.

 

[cutterman]

Wow- a sobering experience. Thanks for sharing. .

I will definitely remember this next time I sell anything of value on Ebay.