USB 2.0 - Not Yet...

[locovaca]

Re: Guys great Debating here

Originally posted by nuckinfutz
Lococava and kenohki great job!

Check this out! FW800 has some definite advantages

http://www.barefeats.com/fire34.html

I guess I'm just a not a fan of USB2. I don't give a damn about Canons needs If I'm spending money I want "MY" preferred connection standard or I'll move on to another brand. Scanners don't push enough data at the consumer level to even max out USB2.

The fear is that once Apple supports USB2 then they've effectively removed any benefit of using Firewire as the Developer will simply make USB2 peripherals to run on both platforms...Firewire goes bye bye.

<sigh> It seems History is due to repeat itself however. Humans always gravitate to the cheaper technology depite obvious superiority. VHS/Beta here we come. Have we learned anything?

Well, it feels like to me that we are agreeing on the same issues but then just disagreeing over the interpretation of those. FW is a better technology. It is more intelligent, it supports greater speeds. That doesn't mean it's made for everyone or everything.

Just because we have airplanes doesn't mean everytime you want to travel from Tampa Bay to Orlando you should take a plane because it goes at 500 MPH and a car only at 70 (not factoring in costs into the analogy). People are not avoiding FW and choosing USB 1/2 because they hate FW or because USB is a technically better technology. It's because the benefits of FW mean very little to nothing to USB devices. While I do not endorse Intel, I do not think they made USB2 to go and steal FW's thunder. Ever since the dawn of external 8x burners, faster scanners with higher resolutions, multi-mega pixel digital cameras with microdrives, and 10/100 USB nics people have wanted USB to be faster. These are all devices that make little sense to make Firewire versions for because they simply wouldn't use the benefits of firewire- dedicated bandwidth, computer independent use, etc.

 

[kenohki]

Re: Re: Guys great Debating here

Originally posted by locovaca


Well, it feels like to me that we are agreeing on the same issues but then just disagreeing over the interpretation of those. FW is a better technology. It is more intelligent, it supports greater speeds. That doesn't mean it's made for everyone or everything.

Just because we have airplanes doesn't mean everytime you want to travel from Tampa Bay to Orlando you should take a plane because it goes at 500 MPH and a car only at 70 (not factoring in costs into the analogy). People are not avoiding FW and choosing USB 1/2 because they hate FW or because USB is a technically better technology. It's because the benefits of FW mean very little to nothing to USB devices.

Agreed!

While I do not endorse Intel, I do not think they made USB2 to go and steal FW's thunder. Ever since the dawn of external 8x burners, faster scanners with higher resolutions, multi-mega pixel digital cameras with microdrives, and 10/100 USB nics people have wanted USB to be faster. These are all devices that make little sense to make Firewire versions for because they simply wouldn't use the benefits of firewire- dedicated bandwidth, computer independent use, etc.

I do disagre with the part about Intel. They're working on a new version of USB that's high speed and peer to peer based. Seems like they want control of the high end and the low end. They're just hoping they can buy enough time to get it out before FireWire takes hold. Also take into account the fact that Intel's 1394 support is about as lukewarm as Apple's USB 2.0 support.

However...

What I'm hoping for here is that the IP networking aspects of FireWire, in concert with Rondezvous/ZeroConf (and 802.11g, though it's not related directly to this thread), will allow the connection of digital devices to each other to do all sorts of neat things that we probably haven't even considered yet.

Imagine your iPod hooked up to your home receiver and not just being able to play the iPod through the stereo but having the receiver discover what services (music) the iPod offers and then being able to offer it's library to you (catalogued of course) through the receiver's interface and remote. (Can I get a car stereo version too?)

Or taking pictures with your digital camera and then being able to preview them directly on your 1394 equiped HDTV. While digital picture frames in your house could discover that your camera offers photos as a service and automatically subscribe to the camera's photo album over 802.11g/Bluetooth/FireWire/whatever.

Those are the types of things that I'm sure make Bill Gates, with his SPOT rhetoric (read: a more friendly way to preach the old "Windows on everything" mantra), wet his pants. But they're the types of things that I think Apple can execute on. It really goes back to the original vision of the Macintosh as more of an appliance than a computer. Yes it can be a digital hub and yes it can run MS Office. But there are times when it will get in the way of a simple and elegant solution to a problem. This is where I think the positioning of the computer as a peer will be a benefit.

-K

hmmm, did I get off on a tangent or what?

 

[jasonbw]

Re: Ah here we go again. USB2 vs Firewire 1/2

Originally posted by h'biki

Canon is now shipping scanners ONLY in USB2 configurations. Its an issue of inventory. Why should they manufacture two models of the same scanner and keep BOTH in stock, when the larger portion of their target market is going to be using USB2 over Firewire (Firewire is still not default on many PCs).

which doesnt seem to matter...usb2 is compatible with usb 1.1...its just slower...kinda.

Thats why I want USB2 on my mac. I don't want to suddenly be kept out of the peripheral market again. I went through that with my SE and Centris.

Well, not sure how good a card it is, but i just bought this siig usb 2 card at compusa for $20. 5 ports (well, 4 usable ports and one internal port ) and if nothing else it does run usb devices at least as well as the built in ports do.

 

[locovaca]

Re: Re: Re: Guys great Debating here

Originally posted by kenohki

I do disagre with the part about Intel. They're working on a new version of USB that's high speed and peer to peer based. Seems like they want control of the high end and the low end. They're just hoping they can buy enough time to get it out before FireWire takes hold. Also take into account the fact that Intel's 1394 support is about as lukewarm as Apple's USB 2.0 support.

Well, fortunately, Intel doesn't quite control the entire market, although their support would help the cause. If you remember a couple of years ago Microsoft said they wouldn't support USB 2 but rather 1394. But it is a folly that you can't find 1394 on the low end of the PC spectrum. But even companies like Creative Labs are integrating 1394 onto their sound cards. And on AMD's end NVidia has 1394 built into their new chipsets. It's a small, pathetic effort, but still is an effort. Considering how long it took to get USB2 built into motherboards from the time it was announced, FW800 might not be an immediate thing. But, the more cool devices and uses of FW that come out (such as the stereos) it should help spur its spread. Remember that anyone who buys a digital video cam will most likely get a MiniDV or Digital8 and will either purchase a PC/Mac with firewire built in or else add it in. Anyway, my point is Intel doesn't like 1394, but Intel no longer represents the entire PC industry anymore.

 

[dblissmn]

Unfortunately Apple doesn't have enough market share to control the market -- just enough to lead it. Sales drones push USB 2.0 as being the new and improved version of a popular standard; now that OS X supports it and now that OS 9 booting is finished there is simply no good reason for the Mac not to include it. Instead of boosting Firewire, they are shooting themselves in the foot by skipping it.

What's even more inexplicable is that we do not see any marketing or even any information being fed to hacks at computer magazines about Firewire; these hacks then go and print stories about how USB is faster than Firewire, which they back up by testing the latest USB 2 product with inferior closeout Firewire products. None of them have ever heard of Oxford 911 and Oxford 922; 911, which is the Firewire 400 version, blows every USB 2 solution right out of the water, but most people whose job it is to know about these things don't know them. And there are very few real journalists out there in the computer trade press (the kind who take the trouble to compare apples to apples), which is why I am calling most of them hacks.

 

[locovaca]

Originally posted by dblissmn
Unfortunately Apple doesn't have enough market share to control the market -- just enough to lead it. Sales drones push USB 2.0 as being the new and improved version of a popular standard; now that OS X supports it and now that OS 9 booting is finished there is simply no good reason for the Mac not to include it. Instead of boosting Firewire, they are shooting themselves in the foot by skipping it.

What's even more inexplicable is that we do not see any marketing or even any information being fed to hacks at computer magazines about Firewire; these hacks then go and print stories about how USB is faster than Firewire, which they back up by testing the latest USB 2 product with inferior closeout Firewire products. None of them have ever heard of Oxford 911 and Oxford 922; 911, which is the Firewire 400 version, blows every USB 2 solution right out of the water, but most people whose job it is to know about these things don't know them. And there are very few real journalists out there in the computer trade press (the kind who take the trouble to compare apples to apples), which is why I am calling most of them hacks.

I agree. I can't stand TechTV at all, nor any kind of magazine that has to deal with computers. I only read websites, and then, only reputable ones like Aces Hardware, not Toms Hardware or Anandtech. What's especially worse is that fewer and fewer websites are becoming trustworthy because they get the hardware free to do a favorable review of- do a negative review and no more freebies.