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Re: Why no pc card in 12?

Originally posted by OSeXy!
This is exactly the reason the Al12" ought to have a PCI slot! The TiBook and Al17" are 'future proofed' in this respect. Just pop in a USB2 card and who cares if Steve wants you to use it or not, it's just there (assuming you can get the drivers...). This is why Wall Street G3s (two PCI slots) can have FireWire and iBooks/iMacs of much later vintage cannot (well, not without a great struggle, anyway). Why did Apple skimp on this basic feature?

Well, hmmm lets see, how 'bout: no room!
And lets say they could, they would have to make everthing else smaller and that would just bring up the price...
Thats like "why doesn't it have a seperate number pad and arrow keys that are to the right of the keyboard?" Screw it, while we're at it "why is there not an 8 hard drive raid on it either"

Sorry to be so condescending, but think about it.

The 12" is supposed to appeal to people that either: want a small laptop (which you usually don't get all the features you are getting in this machine), or a cheaper "pro" laptop (which as I pointed out before, you just can't make everything smaller and keep the price down).
 
FW800 paves the way for putting USB 2 in the new machines without making it the fastest interface in specs that they have.

Why include it? Well, in the PC world, USB 2 is reality. Switching to a machine with not-so-fast USB is percieved as a downgrade. Plus, some switchers might have USB 2 external devices.

"Switch! You don't even have to buy a new _________ (insert favourite printer, scanner, digicam, burner)! Just plug it in." would make a cool ad.

BTW, if USB 2.0 means that we get 2 more USB ports (1.1-compatible) for a total of 4 USB ports on a Power Mac, I'm game.
 
Firewire Scanner and USB 2.0

1. Apple should suppot both USB 2.0 and Firewire 800 period.

we need to show the world that the Mac is the best platform, once again my pc friends have a reason to state that the Mac is not able to do something-and that is a true statement.

fact: Firewire 800 will blow USB 2.0 out of the water.

fact: we still can't run a new USB 2.0 printer on a new mac.

Why can't apple give us a win win situation.

Note:
I just picked up the Epson 2450 Firewire Scanner at
Circut City 399-100 rebate $299 sweet deal (OS X driver for photoshop 7.0 w/OS 10.2 works great!)

.sg
 
Remember the Firefly drive that uses the same disk that's in the iPod? The 20 GB version is no longer available in Firewire, only USB 2. Maybe it's only temporary, but if that's a preview of things to come, then maybe it's not such a bad idea for Apple to jump on the USB 2.0 bandwagon.
 
It's not only Apple that isn't adopting USB 2.0 - alot of Windows manufacturers took a long time to adopt it (and haven't entirely yet).

The only major devices I've seen using USB 2 are external hard drives. Everything other peripheral I've seen is USB; if it NEEDS a higher transfer rate (ie digital camcorders), it uses Firewire.

So it's not just Apple that's not supporting USB 2. Windows boxes look like they "happen to have it, just in case you need it", and most devices I've seen don't use it. The whole industry seems to just look it and go "eh, whatever". Especially when you have Firewire 400 that's been around for longer and that the developers are used to working with.
 
USB2: there are numerous peripherals using it by now. every PC can be upgraded to USB2 with a PCI card.

FW800: there is one laptop who uses it which does not even ship yet. I know of no peripherals which need it. I'm not aware of a way to upgrade an old mac to FW800.

sooo, I guess Apple does not include USB2 as FW800 would be introuble then.
 
My only point about the Al12" is that it does not and cannot in the future support USB2 OR FW800. Period.
Apple has done a great job showing what FW400 can do with the iPod. You'd think it would try to blow everything USB out of the water with FW800 - but then it's not even possible to use it on all of its 'next gen' machines (of which there are only two...). It just makes it look like Apple itself isn't completely supporting the new tech. So what are hardware developers to make of that? I wish Apple would really go for the jugular on this!
I know the only reason why there is no FW800 or PCMCIA slot on the Al12" is that that machine, great though it is, is really an iBook with a G4 in it. I think Apple is testing the water with this model. If it is successful, you better believe there will be a few more 'pro' features on rev.B. And yes, they will somehow fit into just as small a box. And I will buy that box.

EDIT> corrected typos
 
which device do you think you will need in the next few years for which you will need either a USB2 or FW800 port on a 12" PB? USB2 is more in the league of FW400 and most units which connect via USB2 also come with a FW plug. FW800 is for highend professional equipment ... which doesn't even exist at this point. The 17" PB is a highend laptop and comes with a highend FW800 port. the 12" PB is a pro laptop, but not really absolutely highend (as can already be seen at the price of it) and thhus does not come with FW800 but FW400 and USB1.1 which should be sufficient for years to come.
 
AHHHHHHHHHHHH

I repeat

AHHHHHHHHHHHH


Maybe some of you have missed out on this point. All computers come with USB, no? There is no harm in upgrading it to USB 2.0. I repeat, there is no harm in upgrading to USB 2.0. Has IDE killed the SCSI market? How about CD-RW and Zip drives?

FW and USB are not intended to be competing technologies. Most people don't give a crap as long as it works. The manner in which some of you debate is exactly the reason people hate computers- they just want something that works! I know that if my mother went out on her own to buy an external CDR/W drive that she could buy either a Firewire or USB drive and have it work the same. But, if all Apple does is drags their heels on the 2.0 issue, then that benefit wouldn't exist. Devices are only going to require more bandwidth, not less. Not upgrading to 2.0, no matter how great the merits of Firewire, will eventually cost Mac users. It's the exact same thing that happened when all macs were scsi drives. Apple was too arrogant to use IDE, even though it was cheaper and the performance was more than adequate for most of their users, and it did nothing but drive up the costs of macs. They finally switched to IDE, and some people complained, but those that wanted to use SCSI did so. If you have a personal vendetta against USB, fine, don't buy a device. But don't punish the rest of the world that doesn't give a whooey and just wants something that works as advertised.
 
Originally posted by kiskadee
Correct me if i'm wrong, but why shouldn't they use firewire to connect hard drives... I don't mean external harddrive because those still use an ATA/IDE interface but special firewire drives (if those exist of course). It is already faster than the new interface intel is developping under the name Serial ATA and firewire is chainable, hot plugable,... Firewire rules...
So i would say: Go Firewire for al very fast devices (harddisks, DV, 'pro' devices) and USB2.0 for consumer devices (low cost scanners, printers, cd writers,...)

A while back there was talk that there would be *pure* firewire harddrives, and the original g4s came with an internal firewire plug. However, this seemed too costly for harddrive manufacturers, and it was dropped in favor of bridging IDE to firewire. Someone please correct me if I am worng (no flames though). ;)
 
thies, your question is fair enough. The answer is 'I don't know'. I guess one of the things which has caught my eye lately is 'informal' FW networks configured via rendezvous (no FW peripherals - just other computers). This seems like it would be really great for small businesses - and even better if everyone is on FW800.
But then again I suppose Airport 'Extreme' or FW400 would do that job well enough. It will be interesting to see which of all these new 'standards' - from bluetooth to FW800 - survives the Darwinian (no pun) clash over the next few years.
 
Originally posted by ktlx


You are in fantasy land.

The advantages that Firewire has for those devices are purely theoretical from an end user's view. However the cost difference is real. USB 2.0 often shaves as much as $25 off the price (for whatever reason).

The disadvantages of USB become apparent the faster you go. USB relies on a host processor to do the work of processing a transaction/transfer. The faster you go, the more processor cycles you've lost to maintaining that 480Mbps theoretical transfer speed. This is also the reason that USB devices are cheaper. They have hardly any logic on-board. FireWire devices in comparison, are capable of initiating transactions between themselves without the host computer. Thus, they require logic on-board and this increases the cost somewhat. However, Intel has recognized this and is working on something called USB Plug'N'Go (or something like that). It works in the same manner as FireWire (devices are peers) and is expected to cost just as much or more to implement as FireWire.

In one or two years I think it will be difficult to find scanners and digital cameras with Firewire interfaces unless they have been released today.

Just because Firewire 800 has more bandwidth does not mean USB 2.0 will not be a success. It is just like comparing USB 1.1 and Firewire 400. Both are very successful because each has a place. The same will be true for USB 2.0 and Firewire 800. USB 2.0 will be used for inexpensive devices that cannot afford to have the additional costs associated with Firewire.


Agreed that FireWire can't succeed in the consumer arena on it's technical merits alone. However, as exhibited by all these different versions of USB that are going to exist...Intel may cause some consumer frustration and confusion in the market for USB.

Apple will have to support USB 2.0 or Mac users will find more and more lower end consumer devices that will not work very well. You can hold your breath and ignore market realities all you want but in the end USB 2.0 have the same market success that USB 1.1 did. Neither Firewire 400 or 800 will in any way prevent that success.

Apple pretty much started the USB craze by not supporting legacy ports on it's computers. Meanwhile, most PCs are still using PS/2 port keyboards and mice. Apple not supporting USB 2.0 at this point in time is not THAT big of a deal. Hell, even Microsoft decided to support USB 2.0 only recently. They still have time and USB 2.0 is still in it's infancy. Maybe the better thing for Apple to do is to work with the 1394 Trade Association to go drum up some big wins. Maybe then we'll see more FireWire 800 device support.
 
Re: WHY!?

Originally posted by DannyZR2


and with Apple inventing Firewire, and now Firewire800, WHY ON EARTH would they need to put in USB 2? USB is for keyboards, printers, and mice.... i know for a fact that none of these devices use even close to the 12Mb max of basic USB 1.

Maybe because devices can't get close to the 12Mbps max of a USB1 bus. A single device can only use up to 9Mbps.

I really don't buy the arguments against putting USB2 in new Macs. There is not a damn thing wrong with upgrading the USB ports to the newer version, especially when all new Firewire ports should be upgraded as well.
 
Originally posted by dprlynch

Refering to USB2

Windows boxes look like they "happen to have it, just in case you need it", and most devices I've seen don't use it.

I've noticed the same thing with this thing called Firewire on Macs. I've seen a few people use it, but it seems more like they "happen to have it, just in case you need it", and most devices I've seen don't use it.
 
Originally posted by yosoyjay


I've noticed the same thing with this thing called Firewire on Macs. I've seen a few people use it, but it seems more like they "happen to have it, just in case you need it", and most devices I've seen don't use it.

Hmmm, 'cept for the iPod, most portable external hard disks, and the vast majority of DV camcorders (all of which I use BTW).
 
Originally posted by thies
which device do you think you will need in the next few years for which you will need either a USB2 or FW800 port on a 12" PB?

Hmm. Well let's start with a list of items that would benefit from the increased bandwidth of FireWire 800/1600/3200:

External drives
Digital video equipment

Now, I can see wanting the largest screen possible for digital video equipment (although I can also see wanting to connect that same equipment up to your 12" portable in the field ...), but you don't think that it would be nice to be able to plug a high-speed external drive into your portable?

On the other hand, the fact is that neither of those options is really up to using FW800 yet, as far as I can tell. It's not even maxing out FW400 except in extreme cases. So let's expand our horizons a bit:

Super-fast mini-nets of computers (make your friends' powerbooks and yours into a multi-processor cluster)

Anything else?

The thing is, is there a reason why you wouldn't want access to these same devices on your smaller laptop, especially as your smaller laptop is sold as the "smallest fully-functioning laptop"?


USB2 is more in the league of FW400 and most units which connect via USB2 also come with a FW plug.
[/uote]

True. False. Yes, USB 2.0 and FireWire 400 are the competitors, while FW800 is the "future tech" with no USB competitor et (although it has other interconnect tech competing with it ...). However, I don't believe your claim that "most" USB 2.0 units also come with a FW400 plug. They don't. A few do (I can only think of one, but there are bound to be at least a couple more). Most don't. Yes, you often (maybe 30% of the time) have a choice of two items from the same manufacturer which are equivalent except for the USB2/FW400 port on the back, but that's no help in interoperability.
 
it seemstodays dv equipment for the hobby sector isn't fully utilizing Fw400. Fw800 especially on a PB12 would be overkill. linking laptops with friends over Fw800? I doubt I ever have enough people I know actually buy those devices, let alone have enough data in the foreseeable future to max out Fw800 or even 400 for that matter. Fw800 diskdrives on it? again, no need for it. absolute overkill. got to wonder if the rest of the system could even keep up with delivering data fast enough.
 
Originally posted by kenohki


The disadvantages of USB become apparent the faster you go. USB relies on a host processor to do the work of processing a transaction/transfer. The faster you go, the more processor cycles you've lost to maintaining that 480Mbps theoretical transfer speed.

So in other words, not supporting USB 2 is a way that Apple can make their machines effectively run faster (less overhead), despite the MHz/GHz gap.



FWIW, I can see the dillemma in Apple's USB situation: formally supporting USB 2 will likely cannabalize Firewire peripherals for the mid/lower end of the market.

Perhaps a FW2-USB2 bridge/dongle would be a good product to offer. Perhaps also a commercial spot showing significant %-CPU being consumed by USB 2 while the PC's just sitting there might make for a clever advertising piece - - a focus on total CPU efficiency rather than raw power...and don't forget to have the Windows firewall & virus-checker vampiring many clock cycles off the Windows PC system too!


Meantime, I find that my new USB scanner runs noticably slower than my old SCSI one...Argh!


-hh
 
Originally posted by Bear


[*]If you don't believe me, check out the Canoscan EiDE 30 (and other low end Canon scanners.
I just bought one last week, and it is slow on my 867 mdd. on the other hand, my epson 1200u at work is easily faster on usb 1.1


the sad thing is, if i just plugged the damn thing into my dell w/usb2 at home, i could tell you if it made a difference. i'll get back to you.
 
Wait until the iMac...

I don't blame Apple for waiting to adopt USB 2.0, to them it probably seems a little unnecessary.
In theory, there's nothing USB 2 can do, that USB 1.1 or Firewire (400 and 800) can't do. Apple is just waiting. Stalling...

On the Mac OS, USB serves a menial purpose. Mice, keyboards, and laptop snake lights. Apple wants to make a greater push towards Firewire, and Bluetooth. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw a wireless keyboard with the new Power Macs (I also wouldn't be surprised if we didn't).

I think Apple will adopt USB 2, but they won't make a big deal out of it. Instead, they'll try and force Firewire as a standard instead (after all, Apple did invent Firewire).

If there really isn't USB 2.0 on the new Power Macs, I think Apple will only put it on consumer machines. I'm thinking about the upcoming iMac and eMac revisions here. I wouldn't be surprised if Apple kept Firewire 800 off of the eMac (maybe), and opted for USB 2.0 support first.

I'm pretty sure Apple sees USB 2.0 as a trivial technology compared to something like Firewire 800, but we'll see it on upcoming machine revisions, anyway.
 
It's so funny how we come to apple's defence on their not giving consumers choices (on the USB issue). i read the argument that they didn't have the space to do it: shoot, just take out USB 1.1, 2 is backwards compatible. there is no space adjustment. and even if there were, this is apple, not some third-rate PC manufacture whose designers graduated with 2.0 GPAs and just BAs. they're sharp people up there at cupertino. they can do whatever they want, from a design standpoint. of course USB 2.0 is more expensive than 1.1. that doesn't stop them from putting Gb ethernet on their laptops and desktops. that's more expensive, and i am sure all of 1% of powerbook users actually employ Gb ethernet. it's cool, very cool, but shoot, you know how much you have to drop for a Gb ethernet switch? i don't think i have ever seen one other than expensive mission critical types. and here we have USB 2, which honestly is a pretty good nascent technology with more than adequate hardware supporting it. i have that canoscan Lide 30. there's no way in hell i am ever going to be able to afford a FW scanner. 300$ for a scanner is outrageous for me. i can certainly see how it would be helpful.

particularly, as has been mentioned, on the AlBook/12"s. my god, they advertised it with a photographer. i KNOW there are plenty of USB 2 cameras. and i KNOW USB 2 is far far better than 1.1. who cares if it's worse than firwire of any grade?

There was a good point made: apple can't put EVERYTHING on their computers, for practical and pecuniary reasons. that's exactly right. but while it's easily argued that consumers can get a peripheral of any type (almost) for (almost) any standard (barring, significantly, FW mice, and fruity-sounding stuff like that), why should apple limit users' options senselessly? i mean, even if there are plenty of options in the firewire world, why cut off the USB 2 ones? and don't start with that "you can buy more hardware to add it. that's a) not always the case and b) not part of apple philosophy IMO. I certainly bought this powerbook i have in large part so i wouldn't need to go out and buy a bulging wireless card, or any wireless card for that matter, or an ethernet card, or any other extra stuff. apple, when compared with the PC world. is really vain about its hardware, and looking at steve showing me the new powerbooks really demonstrated why this is so. I've heard people complain about how there are no official docking stations for powerbooks... after 2 months, i ask, why? this has been the most pleasant computing experience i have ever had, just setting it on my lap and working hours and hours and hours on it. docking station? that's for oil-tanker PC laptops. when we buy computers, they should be self-sufficient to at least a very large extent. don't diss USB 2!

about that comment on Apple vs. Intel and FW vs. USB. sure, intel may be doing FW now, developing for it and what not. SO WHAT? that doesn't mean that APPLE isn't being vain about its own FW and avoiding what it may/may not see as potential competition in USB 2. there are a lot of issues raised by USB 2, and they could all be quelled by adding it to new computers. hell, we have bluetooth on the new PBs. it's coming, and it's not nearly as "in" as USB 2. grrr this issue is psychotic.

the point is, can't we all admit that, no, many of us are never going to use USB 2, just as many of us are never going to use FW. shoot, some of us just use word and the internet, not using any peripherals of any type. and they have to pay for an apple computer that tailors to you folks that use FW--that costs them a lot more money, trust me. can't you spare a little for the plenty of people (but not you, of course) who will use USB 2? they're out there.
 
Originally posted by alset
I don't see Apple including a technology that directly competes with it's Firewire tech any time soon. I figure USB 2 will only hit Macs if/when Firewire 800 proves to be less than sufficient.

Dan

I agree Apple is trying to kill USB by desupporting USB 2.0 and early-supporting FW400 and FW800.

However with the 3% market share they have it is truly futile. The massive legions of PC lemmings adopt USB2.0 because they have it but not firewire for the most part.

It would be in Apple's interest now that they have exploited 100% of their limited market power to TRY and FAIL to kill USB, to adopt it.

Why?

Simply because tons of third party USB 2.0 devices now exist that will never have FW simply because they have already been released.

Apple should have a massive program to encourage vendors and third party developers to write drivers for all that existing equipment. In fact they should give a 5% discount on a new Apple computer coupon with every free download of such a driver.

USB 2 is a fact of life Apple needs to catch up on. FW is a fact of life wintel needs to catch up on.

Rocketman
 
Originally posted by yosoyjay


I've noticed the same thing with this thing called Firewire on Macs. I've seen a few people use it, but it seems more like they "happen to have it, just in case you need it", and most devices I've seen don't use it.

I use FW for my CD writer, and thank god.

I wish I had a FW scanner that fully used the speed.

I see FW as mandatory for DV input and a good compopsite to FW converter ought to bring in full resolution video when/if available.

Rocketman
 
Re: Firewire Scanner and USB 2.0

Originally posted by Sputnik Group
fact: we still can't run a new USB 2.0 printer on a new mac.
That's blatantly false. USB 2.0 printers can use the current USB ports. I am running one exactly like that.
 
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