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How do you know when you've won an argument by nailing the issue dead on the head?

When your opponent responds with a completely unrelated judgment meant as an insult.



How ELSE do you know when you've won an argument by nailing the issue dead on the head?

When your opponent throws up a straw man argument (an exaggerated one you did not make in the first place) to knock down.

I never implied Apple customers are stupid, being one myself. I did state clearly that a certain subset of them are woefully ignorant.

Ignorance is not stupidity; ignorance can be overcome by those WILLING TO ACKNOWLEDGE IT and willing to cut through their own denial to LEARN TRUTH.

:apple:

Well would you care to explain in of your mockeries and "quotes of SJ" why you say stupid and iCrap, because Apple, sure doesn't say that. That comes from you, and you only.

That respect statement wasn't a hidden insult, you are capable of saying smart and unbiased things. You just choose to go on these random trolling sprees, "play to the crowd". That is something that makes me lose respect in someone.

Maybe "normal" people who buy overpriced and overhyped crap they don't need and are fool beta-testers for a company that looks upon them as idiots need to talk to a psychiatrist far more than I do.

Where does it say ignorant? All I see is idiot and fool, and further cussing in your post history.

---

BTW, I don't see you knocking down my "stawman", just red herrings on how you're going to win this argument without presenting any premises.

Argument by example, authority, analogy and causes. - http://www.amazon.com/Rulebook-Arguments-Anthony-Weston/dp/0872205525 - There's a good start.

Just for Sh17s and giggles, anything further on this argument, I'm going back up with evidence, including psychology bits. Trolls are good for one thing, university practice. Thank you trolls, you gave me an A- in my Critical Thought grade. :D
 
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Well would you care to explain in of your mockeries and "quotes of SJ" why you say stupid and iCrap, because Apple, sure doesn't say that.

Opinion.

That respect statement wasn't a hidden insult, you are capable of saying smart and unbiased things. You just choose to go on these random trolling sprees, "play to the crowd".

I have one target audience and one alone; Jobs and the board of Apple, in an attempt to keep the company and my investment in it going the way of Amiga which I see coming from worse arrogance and neglect than Amiga ever dreamed of, in chase of the lowest common denominator and the quick fad buck. I need play to no crowd; I know how many Mac Pro highend customers agree with me wholeheartedly.

As for the straw man argument, once again, I said iCrap buyers were and are ignorant and misinformed, not stupid as you claimed, and there is a vast difference.

:apple:
 
Opinion.



I have one target audience and one alone; Jobs and the board of Apple, in an attempt to keep the company and my investment in it going the way of Amiga which I see coming from worse arrogance and neglect than Amiga ever dreamed of, in chase of the lowest common denominator and the quick fad buck. I need play to no crowd; I know how many Mac Pro highend customers agree with me wholeheartedly.

Odd target given none of them read these forums. :rolleyes:

I might agree with some of your opinions, but your method of communicating them leaves much to be desired.
 

Care to provide some proof otherwise? This may be shifting the burden of proof, but until you find proof saying otherwise, you're the person saying it, not Apple.

I have one target audience and one alone; Jobs and the board of Apple, in an attempt to keep the company and my investment in it going the way of Amiga which I see coming from worse arrogance and neglect than Amiga ever dreamed of, in chase of the lowest common denominator and the quick fad buck. I need play to no crowd; I know how many Mac Pro highend customers agree with me wholeheartedly.

As for the straw man argument, once again, I said iCrap buyers were and are ignorant and misinformed, not stupid as you claimed, and there is a vast difference.

:apple:

Well why spout that drivel here? If you really want to make sure your investment in Apple isn't wasted, invest IN Apple or just even use your investment, its not like you computer will magically break if Apple does stops Mac (even though I still think thats a highly unjustified argument). If that still isn't enough, write an angry letter to steve jobs and send it to 1 infinite loop. Coming on these forums just to troll is a waste of Arn's bandwidth and your time.

Sarcasm and Mockery has been thought to show somebody's true opinion, even though their intent is to confuse or "break" people.

http://www.amazon.com/Talk-Cheap-Al...=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1280265448&sr=8-2

I still can't find a post of you stating that you think they're ignorant. Yet I find plenty in which you're mocking or being sarcastic, usually in the form that SJ has a god complex, or SJ/Apple thinks that iCrap owners are stupid.
 
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No usb3 or faster fw to macs this year.
Maybe next year, maybe never...

Still can't believe single-chip MP memory design!
Going strong for at least 3 years?
Nobody who needs memory buys single-chip MPs?
 
On the xMac name...

Glad you like it. It's been around since the death of the G4 Cube. It's golden years were during the Power Mac G5 days when Apple started to kill off the $1299 upgradeable Mac tower.

The big boon years were shortly after the Mac Pro was released at above $1999, and everyone hoped and wished for non-Xeon desktop chips in a tower.

The use of the name xMac has kinda trailed off now, but may come back with the introduction of a new Mac Pro, whose price may just start at $2999, and still have a 320GB HDD and 4GB of RAM standard.

Apple does have an interesting problem in their customer use cases: with IIRC roughly 70% of Mac sales being laptops, the days of the desktop are in decline, yet there are nevertheless those "trucks" that still need to exist to support the foundational underpinnings.

To (abuse) this truck analogy, the only truck that Apple makes is the super-heavyduty F350, which clearly meets all "trucky" needs, but beause it is a fully featured professional level commercial duty everything, it costs a pretty penny.

The alternative is just a minivan (iMac) which gets pressed into the role as best as it can, because there is no light duty pickup truck.


I can't understand why Apple wouldn't produce this.

Does Apple not want more buyers able to upgrade their computer?

Simplistically, no. If we think about it, when we buy an upgrade to a computer, how does the original OEM benefit from having built that upgradability into their product?

The blunt answer (Part I) is that they do not benefit, because we buy our upgrade from a 3rd Party.

And (Part II) upgradability arguably hurts the OEM, because our ability to upgrade really means that we are able to defer a new purchase: from the OEM's perspective, it is a lost sale.

So instead of selling us a new desktop Mac every 3 years, we buy upgrades in year 2 and buy a new desktop Mac every 4 years: that's effectively a (4/3) = 33% reduction in sales/profit potential from the OEM's perspective.

FWIW, what makes some of this business decision trades even harder is that while a "Long Life" product hurts their near term bottom line, it can also result in greater customer satisfaction which results in more faithful repeat customers.

The inevitable friction here is the question on if a business decision is made that customer satisfaction rates are "High Enough" so as to literally 'cash in' on some of this goodwill capital.

Is Apple afraid it will take away sales from the iMac or mini? But what about Mac repeat customers that aren't finding anything from Apple that they want to buy? Is it better to lose those repeat customers completely?

That's a hard part of the business model to figure out. Very simplistically, we can perhaps consider what Apple's response has been by looking at notional profit rates.

For example, if we say that a generic iMac sells for $1200, of which $300 is profit ... and that said iMac gets replaced every 3 years, then Apple's annualized profit from that customer is $300/3 = $100/year.

Similarly, a Mac Pro with $1000 profit ... can have a ten year lifespan (after those incremental upgrades from which Apple doesn't benefit) before it gets down to the same benchmark of $1K/10 = $100/year.

Granted, one can point out that the higher-end customer isn't likely to go that many years running his high-end Mac system because of productivity gains and so forth, but there is the aspect of hardware trickle-down, where the old Mac Pro gets figuratively repurposed as something else ... maybe a file server, or maybe under the office Secretary, since an old MP still has plenty of horsepower for email & MS-Office. As such, this internal repurposing results in that business from avoiding buying an iMac or whatever and thus is likely part of the supplier's business plan model.

Is it because Apple is afraid of damaging the elegance of its all in one iMac? The same elegance that is already destroyed because you have to hook up an external drive if you want two hard drives?

More likely it is a recognition that an iMac will definitely be someday retired when its LCD screen goes belly-up, whereas a headless machine can much more easily keep going with merely a new display.

FWIW, I bought an Apple 1705 CRT display back in 1989. I forget when I actually replaced it, but I definitely do recall that I was still using it when I bought my G5 PowerMac in 2003 ... that's at least a 13 year product lifespan, which is not a particularly great thing from the supplier's viewpoint for things to last that long.


-hh
 
Odd target given none of them read these forums. :rolleyes:

That would be an extremely ignorant assumption. Most smart companies keep close tabs on PUBLIC opinion. Given the amount of Apple shills that clog up these forums, obviously some at Apple are paying attention to them, while the CEO may be choosing to ignore all customer opinion whatsoever.


Care to provide some proof otherwise? This may be shifting the burden of proof, but until you find proof saying otherwise, you're the person saying it, not Apple.

Proof that my opinion is my opinion?



If you really want to make sure your investment in Apple isn't wasted, invest IN Apple or just even use your investment

It would be a bad assumption to assume I have not, or that I haven't used other avenues either. When complaints to a company go ignored, I find public exposure to be very uncomfortable for them.

Yet I find plenty in which you're mocking or being sarcastic, usually in the form that SJ has a god complex, or SJ/Apple thinks that iCrap owners are stupid.

1. He does. Proof? Blu-ray, flash, and until recently, glossy screens.

2. They do. Proof? Using their early adopters as unpaid beta testers as company policy for the past five years or more. Widespread advice even on the Apple forums themselves are to eschew all OS updates until 10.X.6. Similar advice on holding off on buying new Apple hardware until at least six months have passed. It took longer than that for them to fix smell and audio problems on the last batch.

And then finally there's that iPhone antenna debacle. And it is a debacle.

If THAT'S a company that gives a damn about its base, I sure would question their sanity.

:apple:
 
That would be an extremely ignorant assumption.

LOL. They don't even listen to feedback or reports on their own message forums; they just delete crap they don't like and that guy NEVER forwards anything to the tech guys at Apple (easily proven from the droves of bugs that never get fixed in OSX). But yeah, *I* am the ignorant one here. If Apple were your true audience, you would be e-mailing them not insulting people here and then later telling those people you weren't talking to them, but to the invisible Apple agents that are reporting your every word to Steve. :rolleyes:
 
To (abuse) this truck analogy, the only truck that Apple makes is the super-heavyduty F350, which clearly meets all "trucky" needs, but beause it is a fully featured professional level commercial duty everything, it costs a pretty penny.

The alternative is just a minivan (iMac) which gets pressed into the role as best as it can, because there is no light duty pickup truck.
To continue to abuse the truck analogy the new Mac Pros fail to meet many trucky needs that would justify the 'heavy duty' pricing, IMO. No USB 3.0, no eSATA, no HDMI, only announced compatibility with ATi cards (a growing number of apps utilize CUDA), all FW ports share the same bus, only three PCI slots, etc.,.

I see more luxury SUV and less workhorse.


Lethal
 
Macs are already so much more expensive than PC, yet we still need to spend extra to buy an external drive that cost 500 dollars included tax? Are you serious?

Can you even play movies with that? I don't think Apple machines are capable of receiving the copy protected signal on pretty much all blu-ray entertainment.

My annoyance is Apple still isn't selling HD movie content in the iTunes store in my country. Hell, you can't even rent it unless you order from an Apple TV - and then its available on an extremely limited number of titles. I believe HD selection for movies purchase is extremely limited in the US too.

Blu-ray may be a bag of hurt, but telling us to pay sky-high iTunes prices for terrible quality standard definition movies is an insult.
 
On the xMac name...

FWIW, what makes some of this business decision trades even harder is that while a "Long Life" product hurts their near term bottom line, it can also result in greater customer satisfaction which results in more faithful repeat customers.

More likely it is a recognition that an iMac will definitely be someday retired when its LCD screen goes belly-up, whereas a headless machine can much more easily keep going with merely a new display.
-hh

Apple was getting some heat the past few years for not being "green" enough. In regards to materials and power consumption the iMac may be "green" having to toss the whole thing when the screen goes is not "green".

Since I recently had to buy an LCD monitor when my old CRT died it makes no sense (since I don't need two monitors) to buy a computer that has one built in. Which means buying a mini where I won't be completely satisfied or buy a PC where I won't be completely satisfied. Some choice.
 
To continue to abuse the truck analogy the new Mac Pros fail to meet many trucky needs that would justify the 'heavy duty' pricing, IMO. No USB 3.0, no eSATA, no HDMI, only announced compatibility with ATi cards (a growing number of apps utilize CUDA), all FW ports share the same bus, only three PCI slots, etc.,.

I see more luxury SUV and less workhorse.

Unfortunately, agreed...and I'll add faster Firewire to your list, particularly since FW1600 was a $3.50 chip back in 2008. Really gotta wonder why no one has picked up on it, even in the aftermarket.


Apple was getting some heat the past few years for not being "green" enough. In regards to materials and power consumption the iMac may be "green" having to toss the whole thing when the screen goes is not "green".

This is a good point to highlight: The green factor in a proverbial 40lb chunk of desktop iron is the very fact that it is upgradable, which allows it to be kept in service longer.

...and the display is merely one of those 'upgradeable' subsystem parts.


Dare we suggest mentioning this to Greenpeace?
Maybe we can use that as leverage to blackmail Steve :D

-hh
 
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