"USB-C only" = "Think different"

Discussion in 'MacBook Pro' started by aevan, May 1, 2017.

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  1. aevan, May 1, 2017
    Last edited: May 1, 2017

    aevan macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #1
    Do you know what's one of the biggest reasons why Windows sucks? Legacy support. Hidpi has issues in Windows? Legacy apps (no UWP app has problems). Antivirus causes slowdown after the Creators Update? Legacy support. Developer decides not to use modern tools to create a new UI? Legacy compatibility.

    Do you know why 3ds Max is a huge, bloated piece of $%@^ instead a fast, optimized app? Legacy compatibility.

    Do you know why Photoshop still has a choppy, laggy zoom, or unexplained slowdowns compared to a modern iOS app like Procreate? Yup - legacy support.

    So, now Microsoft has to resort to drastic measures like forcing updates to Win 10 users. It sucks, but I understand why they are doing that.

    It's also why a lot of people were disappointed they made a 32bit version of Win 10. Bad move Microsoft. But they are changing, and becoming more brave when it comes to cutting off old, legacy stuff.

    Ok, so sometimes - you must have legacy support. Maybe your work depends on it. But you know where legacy support is not "a must"? Ports. Why? Because you can change cables, get adapters, etc. No, it's not a big deal, so man up or woman up - and accept that this is so that we can have better things.

    You want things "to just work"? Say no to legacy support. You want companies to focus on innovation? Say no to legacy support. No great breakthrough was achieved in the comfort zone. Short-term convenience or long-term advancement?

    It's incredible to me how people are outraged if the CPU or GPU in their computer is not the latest gen, but god forbid if ports get removed. Go to Surface Studio forums and see how many people ware crying over the fact that the Nvidia inside is not series 10. Forget about the awesome zero-gravity hinge or the Surface dial - it's not the latest GPU. And let's not get started on the whole "Why isn't it Kaby-Lake" thing on the MBP. But remove function keys, remove old ports - it's the end of the world.


    I want to say a few things:

    1. There is a huge difference between a MBP with USB-C only ports, and that same MBP with even just one USB-A port. One is a step towards the future, the other one is a Windows PC clone.

    2. I seriously doubt it will happen, but if Apple decides to make any future Mac that has a legacy port, it will be the first time ever that I would use the phrase "This is not the Apple Jobs made anymore".

    3. Stop saying the new MBPs (at least the TB models) have less ports than the old one. Old MBPs have more VARIETY, but less USB ports, less TB ports, less video out ports, less charging ports, etc.


    Not ready to accept change? You're in luck. There are a LOT of options for you. Even Mac ones. Apple still sells old MBPs. There are dozens of good Windows laptops. But stop saying that Apple should've included old ports on MBPs. Thank you.
     
  2. silentownage001 macrumors regular

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  3. iRabbit macrumors 6502

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    #3
    I can (and did) get on board for the future. I can deal with dongles for now.
    However, I have two complaints that have noting to do with Legacy Support and why I think there maybe were some things missed when Apple decided 4 TB/USB-C ports was enough.

    First, SD card slot. This will NEVER be replaced by a USB-C port. The camera manufacturers have pretty much all committed to SD cards at this point, and there isn't some new camera storage medium now or in the near future that will plug directly into a USB-C slot (without the help of a card reader). The fact that the last few generations of MacBook Pros and Airs had a built-in SD card port was a really nice feature for photographers (and videographers) without the need to have to carry yet another cable/device. I think they should have left it in.

    Second, power. While I appreciate the fact that my MBP can be charged with a more standard cable, something not so proprietary, there are two features I miss. The MagSafe had saved me more than a few times, especially when there's kids and pets in my family. The way the power brick used to wind up for storage, with the little pop-out wings and the thin flexible cord, made for a neater experience than the current USB-C brick and cable.
    Please don't tell me about third-party MagSafe cables either... so far they've all proven to be either crap or scams.

    That's it. The second gripe is really more of a nitpick, but the first I think is a valid complaint. I'm a professional photographer, and it just irks me that my new laptop lacks feature my 2011 Air had. That doesn't scream "this is the future" to me. That screams "oops, we forgot something."

    Ps. I love Apple and generally love my tbMBP :p
     
  4. robvas macrumors 68020

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    #4
    I agree that the third-party magsafes are a joke. But, you can remove the power cable from the brick so you don't need to wind it up anymore.
     
  5. BarracksSi Suspended

    BarracksSi

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    #5
    Bah. Fat lot of good the SD card slot did for reading my CF cards.
     
  6. aevan thread starter macrumors 68000

    aevan

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    #6
    Also, the camera reader is, in my opinion, not a "port", it's more in the same category as a DVD drive than a port.

    I don't want to comment on that, since I do not use these cards - however, as @BarracksSi said - a lot of people use CF cards and have no use for the SD readers, especially since (if I understand correctly) professional cameras don't use SD cards. I could be wrong, so please correct me if I am.

    Still, I'm not talking about SD card slots, I'm talking about USB-A/TB2/DisplayPort/HDMI.

    As for the MagSafe - well, I can understand the love there, however, I prefer an universal charging solution (plus, charging from both sides ftw!) to a proprietary one, even if it's as awesome as MagSafe. The solution, I guess, would be to have some Apple-made system where the cable can detach at the charger side. There are rumors they are planning something like that for the future. We'll see.
     
  7. TheOkeland macrumors member

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    #7
    Legacy support in Windows?

    #InternetExplorer

    Microsoft will get huge problem with their OS. Around millennium Microsoft tried to rework their operating system, after much work, the development team had to cancel their approach, because they realised that it would be nearly impossible to rework and offer compatibility to the current systems.
    Today with Windows 10 Microsoft tries to rework again, but again they run into big problems. They buried the Internet Explorer so deep into the operating system, that they cannot remove it without corrupting their whole OS.
    I mean even the file-explorer and the update-system is based on the internet explorer....

    Furthermore there are security gaps in the architecture, Microsoft can patch known attacks, but the security gap remains open.
    Yes, Microsoft did invest much time to adjust their UI to be usable on tablets or phones, but this destroyed the user experience on Desktops or Laptops. The new System Preferences menu is just awful and the Start-menu isn't beautiful either.

    This is only my opinion as a long term windows user, so take it with a grain of salt.
    Today I am using Linux quite much, but I know many people with macOS machines, so I can tell that there is so much that is solved better on Macs.
    The UI is just beautiful, not oversized as Windows is. As long as Apple does not feature a Touchscreen, they will be able to maintain this. With a Touchscreen the whole menu would have to be bigger... I don't want to see menus on my machine, the space should be used for Applications!
    Also the way Macs just work out of the box, not nearly as many crashes or bugs, we can see on Windows.

    So you don't get me wrong, Windows machines are really good for light work. The everyday user will not have that much crashes because he does not urges his computer that much. Doing light work as surfing or word, etc. Windows performs well. But when we get to heavy workload, the operating system is just inefficient.

    For me as a Computer Science student it is not understandable that there is no native C/C++ support in windows. No real Bash, nothing we need really often. (Yes there is this new Bash-Framework, but it is not as comfortable and mighty than a Linux or macOS bash)
    Also the applications itself are not well designed and sometimes some workarounds are needed (additional compilers, etc.).
    I could use a Linux machine you could say and you are right, but I don't want to spend my time in bash to compile kernels or something like this. My machine should run smoothly most the time, should be well build and have decent specs.
    (Quad-Core, dGPU, good battery life, high resolution (yes an IDE needs quite much space on the screen))

    Being confronted with MBPs more and more (more and more graduated students and lecturers are switching to macOS), I can say the prejudices are wrong. Yes, buying Apple is expensive, but you get quality and a reliable machine for your money. The old Early 2011 MBP 13" I am writing on at the moment is better than my Skylake ThinkPad when it comes to efficiency and a nice workflow (waiting for an updated MBP :D).

    The gone F-keys some people are complaining about, I would not miss. Especially on macOS I do not use the F-Keys anyway as F-Keys. There are applications as vim, where the F-Keys are crucial, but there are really good alternative Text-Editors such as Sublime or Atom.

    Only TB3-Ports at the new MBPs? Hell yeah!
    This tiny little port is capable of 40gbps! What do you want more?
    Running eGPUs? You can!
    Getting 10gbps networking ore more? Yes, you can too!
    Transforming your Laptop to a Desktop with only one or maybe two cables (depending what setup you want)? You can do nearly everything with this tiny little ports! (if only it would support HTCPCP o_O)
     
  8. JMacHack macrumors 6502

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    #8
    I still wish they would've included a USB-A adapter like they include 3.5mm adapters with the iPhone.
     
  9. iRabbit macrumors 6502

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    #9
    All modern professional cameras (or most) have moved to SD cards. I haven't seen one use a CF card in a really long time. I am a professional photographer. I can't speak to every brand and every model, but in most recent years SD cards have become the more popular choice. I think some of the bigger full-frame bodies may use both, but I'm fairly certain most modern DSLRs and mirrorless cameras use SD cards.

    I get what you're saying that it's not a port but more a drive, I just don't agree with their decision to remove it. However, it didn't keep me from buying the computer. Hell, the SD card reader "dongle" was all of $11. It's just the hassle of having to always make sure I have it when traveling.

    As for MagSafe, seeing as third party makers are trying to make a solution for USB-C, I think there's desire out there. I know there was a patent and/or rumor of even Apple working on one. I hope it's true. At least give us the option, even if it's an accessory to buy after the fact (just not one from a crappy 3rd party).
     
  10. CaptRB macrumors 6502a

    CaptRB

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    #10
    I MOSTLY agree. USB-c is great and I have zero issues with it.

    But....

    An SD slot is NOT a legacy port. As a pro photographer I use CF cards with SD as a backup, but the SD slot is still viable and even allows for storage options. It wasn't a deal breaker, but no SD slot was not a brilliant move. Other than that, these are the best Apple machines yet.

    R.
     
  11. ZapNZs macrumors 68000

    ZapNZs

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    #11
    I am not thrilled with the removal of the SD card slot as I use it for internal storage on my other MacBook Pros that have it, and I've been in situations where not having USB-A has been quite frustrating (over time it won't be.) So I understand some of the frustration.

    Simultaneously, USB-C is probably going to become one of the greatest tech innovations of recent time. It's super durable, it's fast, it carries a ton of power, it offers tremendous flexibility & room for future expansion, it's biggest issues can be addressed without changes to the port itself, and it will probably be the first true solution that merges different types of portable devices into using one single cable-->i.e., cost effective & convenient for us, and capable of reducing a TON of waste production & carbon emissions. The speed that this change occurs is up for debate, but USB-C's superiority is not. Should Apple have embraced USB-C they way it chose? Not really my place to say since I can't speak for the needs of others...but I do think that if Apple did not strongly embrace USB-C, they would be criticized for embracing inferior portage.

    (on a side note, I have this theory that if a SATA 12.0 Gbps is created/released, or an alternative interface that is cost effective and embraced by the storage industry comes about, that the adoption of USB-C with 3.1 gen 2 will be much quicker than its current pace...)
     
  12. dyn, May 2, 2017
    Last edited: May 2, 2017

    dyn macrumors 68030

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    #12
    Or in other words, you are exaggerating your point. Hardly any professional camera has moved from CF to SD. CF still is faster than SD and for video one uses an even faster medium (CFast). What you are talking about are the consumer and prosumer photo cameras plus the action cameras that have settled with SD cards. Both SD and CF/CFast have their uses. It's basically like comparing USB and Thunderbolt.

    A lot of those professional photographers also have a slightly different workflow where they move the data off the SD/CF cards to external drives. Those external drives can contain far more data than SD/CF cards can. Handling your data (photos or video in this case) is very important and goes far beyond the memory card that sits in the camera.

    While there are advantages to separate memory cards that you can swap, they also have disadvantages. Their size being one. They are rather small and very thin which make them quite difficult to get out of the memory slots and easy to lose. Handling SD cards is a hassle no matter where you have the SD card reader. It simply is easier if you do it via wire or wifi (depending on the camera manufacturer because many are very good at screwing this part up). The bigger CF cards are just so much easier to work with.

    TL;DR: cameras aren't a good example of why there should be an in-built SD card reader. In fact microSD can be used in far more devices so it makes more sense to put that into a notebook (plus it is used in devices that you can't simply connect to a computer or backup via some external drive).

    Instead of wasting space on a port or slot only a few people use Apple seems to have gone for a far more universal solution: 4 Thunderbolt 3 ports. Now you can connect whatever you want, meaning a reader for CF or SD or microSD or some combination of them. Or not if you don't use any of that (not every pro user uses memory cards, there are many companies where you won't find any memory cards (and some where any external media is forbidden to prevent data leakage)).

    So yes, these 4 TB3 ports do require you to think differently.

    @aevan: USB-C allows the use of legacy devices as it is backwards compatible with USB2.0 and 3.0. That means that you can still use your old external drives. The only thing that you have to do is buy a new cable (or an adapter) with USB-C instead of USB-A at one end. For some that makes it difficult to see the benefits of USB-C because it can do the same thing as the old port so why not use that instead? To answer to that is that it doesn't bring nice features as being able to just plug it in instead of having to fiddle with it before you have it the right side up and allowing things like 100W of power, faster data and all sorts of protocols over the same cable (basically: get a USB-C cable and use it for anything, no need for a collection of various kinds of cables). Why not explain the benefits of USB-C over the older ports and make people see why we need it to replace all the other ports?
     
  13. CaptRB macrumors 6502a

    CaptRB

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    #13
    ''



    I'm not aware of ANY pro DSLR's that use SD as a primary card. CF is faster, so that remains the standard. My Nikon Df is SD only, but it's not viewed as a pro machine.

    I have to ask...how are you a pro shooter and don't see CF cards in use? Virtually every high end DSLR is CF, so what kind of shooting do you do? My current work cameras: D810, D500, D5 and I also use the Canon 1dxII on occasion. ALL are CF card cameras.


    R.
     
  14. csurfr macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    The interwebs are reading your posts and displaying some "relevant" ads... Creepy!
     

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  15. iRabbit macrumors 6502

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    #15
    I shoot architectural photography and I'm also a fine art photographer. I do professional time-lapse photography. And sometimes I do video testimonials at job sites with homeowners. My primary equipment is mirrorless for the sheer fact that electronic shutter is essential to long-term time-lapse use if you don't plan on replacing your bodies every six months. I have five different cameras, all the top end of their class, and all use SD cards.

    The D810 take SD cards. The D500 takes SD cards. The D5 and Canon do not. Without looking at the specs of every single camera, I can still safely say that the vast majority of cameras take SD cards. I'm fairly certain every other Canon and Nikon body does (from recent times) other than the biggest most expensive ones. No one argues the 5D is a pro camera, and that indeed takes SD cards. Same with the 810.

    All that said, we're not here to argue camera specs. The SD card slot was popular on the MacBook Pros and Airs for a number of reasons, not just to photographers (and videographers)... though they liked it a lot too. And like mentioned by someone else, it isn't a "legacy port" nor is it outdated or soon to become outdated.
    --- Post Merged, May 2, 2017 ---
    I'm not exaggerating my point. Go look for yourself. In the last lets say two years I could find only two camera bodies that exclusively used CF cards. Yes, they are the absolutely most expensive Canon and Nikon cameras, probably most often used by sports shooters, but nearly every other camera on the market uses SD cards. Some of the Canons and Nikons use both.

    CF might be faster, but a lot of cameras people are using for professional video use SD cards. Like the Sony A7s. Like the GH5. Like the Canon 5D MK IV.

    Really guys, I didn't come here to argue over camera specs. SD cards are the newer technology and the more popular technology except for the people who use Canon's and Nikon's top $7000 camera bodies.

    AND when it comes to MacBook Pros and their SD card port, there's other reasons - IMO - they shouldn't have removed it. Photographers (and videographers) are just one example. If you don't agree, fine. Obviously you win because Apple already removed it. LOL
     
  16. carestudio macrumors 6502

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    #16
    Agree. Keep moving forward, Apple. But please try to make something new that is compatible with TB3, USB-C. I love these new technologies and hate to see the future connection that is not type-c where I invested a lot of money already and also pre-ordered CalDigit Thunderbolt 3 dock. Want to use it for the next 5 years.
     
  17. Ma2k5 macrumors 6502a

    Ma2k5

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    #17
    The problem is, things no longer "just work" with Apple, they are as buggy, if not sometimes more buggy, when it comes to MacOS/iOS/Android platforms - so what am I paying the premium for now? Why am I limited to a walled garden, if the garden doesn't function as it once used to?

    I don't know if software just got more complex, or the people driving the dev team now are worse, but iOS/MacOS feels a lot worse now than it did years ago. Before, my complaint for iOS was that I needed 3rd party apps to customise my alarm like Android, now it has a host of issues which I had back in my Android days.

    Also, calling Windows "slow" and blaming it on legacy support, then correlating it to USB exclusion, is a bit of a stretch.
     
  18. CaptRB macrumors 6502a

    CaptRB

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    #18



    Oh boy. Okay, but you clearly said that you are a Professional shooter, which leads us to assume that you'd know people in the field.

    For disclosure, I'm a large format shooter and currently handling Jewelry and still for catalogue. My work has also been used at boat and car shows, as well as websites. Working in NY and LA, I know a LOT of shooters. Sports, wedding, portrait, wildlife and Fashion. Many are at or near the top of their fields.

    No one relies exclusively on SD because it's slower and we don't buy top tier gear to crippled it with slower media storage. While you make money with your gear, it's not what most professionals use. If you know the business, then you know this. And if you work among others in the industry, it's rather difficult to believe that you don't know anyone using CF anymore since it remains the highest spec storage for top tier cameras PERIOD.

    So, I find your comments both suspect and blatantly inaccurate. What fields do the "pros" you know work in where they use slower recording media?

    Saying that the D5 and D500 takes SD is sort of like saying a Porsche Turbo can run on low octane gas. SD is the slowest against CF and XQD, thus not a top professional choice.


    R.
     
  19. Mike Boreham macrumors 65816

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    #19
    Card speed must be a pretty low priority for an Architrctural and Fine Arts photographer. ;)
     
  20. dyn macrumors 68030

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    #20
    You are exaggerating your point because you started out with something along the lines of "no pro camera uses CF" and ended with "there are some pro cameras that use SD". I also strongly suggest you do the looking first, start with the reply from @CaptRB. It is not a strange thing to still be using CF cards because that's what those cameras have been using for years and people have developed a workflow around them.

    The world doesn't start and end with Canikon, there are more brands and far more expensive cameras used by professionals. For some kinds of photography you simply can't go with Canikon because it requires the larger sensors of the medium format cameras.
    For cameras using both formats the CF is used primarily and the SD is only the backup slot.

    Of which only the Canon can be considered pro (hint: there is more to it than just the camera alone). That said, you are also making a very classic MacRumors mistake: thinking that gear is what makes a pro a pro. It doesn't. The one behind the camera doing the actual work is what makes a pro a pro. Hence why real professionals simply use whatever camera works best for them. It can be something the manufacturer defines as prosumer, consumer or actually as professional. But a real professional is about far more things than a camera alone. Workflow plays a major role in it too. There are people who are using film and there are people who are shooting tethered (not something that is only on the expensive cameras).

    Your entire comparison of the pro workflow is extremely selfish because it is only seen from your viewing point.

    Btw, the other thing here is simply technical. Nearly all of the in-built card readers (no matter the format) are USB3.0 versions. Not what you'd want to use if you have lots of shots in RAW, especially not with those Sony A7 cameras.

    My entire point was that you shouldn't be using specs or cameras as an example at all because it is highly debatable. Gear doesn't make someone a professional, their behaviour, workflow, etc. do. There are way too many workflows out there where SD doesn't play a role at all or only a minor one. Not to mention that not everybody is of the kind to start screaming and shouting when they lose a port on the notebook. Most of the people who've bought the new MBP did so knowingly that there wasn't a card reader. If it was that much of a deal you make it out to be then they wouldn't have bought the MBP in the first place.

    And like I said, those other uses make a far better case for an in-built SD card reader than cameras do. To give an example: Macs are used a lot in the networking and security part of IT. The devices used (routers, switches, gateways, firewalls, UTMs, etc.) all run of an SD card and exceed the amount of cameras with SD cards used by professionals. Being able to read/write that card in a notebook is a key functionality for those users. Not to mention all those developers with development boards such as the Raspberry Pi that take SD cards (mostly microSD due to its size). The same can be said about Android phones.

    Cameras are simply the weakest example you can give for keeping the SD card reader.
     
  21. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #21
    Honestly, if Microsoft were actually FIRM with their support cutoff dates they wouldn't have the legacy mess in enterprise that they do. Vista just got dropped, finally, VISTA!
     
  22. jerryk macrumors 68020

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    #22
    There are legal requirements for product support that come into play. I believe in the US it is 5 years after the last shipment of the product.

    With that said, I have clients that have stockpiled computers that run Windows XP since they have a critical manufacturing process that only runs on Windows XP or earlier.
     
  23. biscuit0819 macrumors member

    biscuit0819

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    #23
    Exactly. How can a 'pro' machine not have an SD slot? I really hope it's not another effort to save space.
     
  24. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #24
    I fully understand this. What I'm saying is MS constantly continues support for years AFTER that legal requirement is up. I'm not saying the cutoff should be right at that legal requirement, but MS has an awful track record of setting a date then turning around 2 or 3 more times saying "just kidding".

    It basically makes it so IT departments can't actually plan (as in, demand adequate funding for new devices because MS will no longer support it) adequately because someone up the chain doesn't believe (for good reason) that the support will actually drop when MS says it will (I've seen this happen in two former workplaces). Windows 7 support was extended 3 or 4 times at this point.
     
  25. Rhonindk macrumors 68020

    Rhonindk

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    #25
    Using a rMB. USB-C is not the biggest issue though I did have to buy a sidebar adapter. The biggest two issues: First, the USB-C would not accommodate my iPhone or iPad. It would not accommodate any of my existing peripherals. You had to buy adapters.
    Second, the wireless was less than great. So many times it just dropped my wireless HDD, wireless card reader, or wireless Hp Laserjet Pro. Many times the WiFi just never came back on after sleep. It is all the little stuff.
    Forward thinking - yes. Optimal - no.
     
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