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usb and firewire

My limited understanding is that USB uses your computer's processor to processinformation, while Firewire has its own built-in chipset.

That's why Firewire's more expensive and why in situations where a steady stream is necessary (video work) it is the preferred choice... - j
 
Just so you know fsck is not a swear word. It's the UNIX command for (File System Check). You should get to know the command if you use OSX. In case you don't know about it or how to use it just let me know and I will explain in detail.

Oh man, thanks for KILLING that.

Just so YOU know, "fsck" has been used as a replacement for "f*ck" for a good long fscking time. (for obvious reasons =)
 
unless you have a digital camera with a really large anount of high sized files, usb2 will not matter. some people barely know where to plug in things to the computer, let alone care how fast thier usb is. it won't make a difference like fw800 will, but fw800 will take a little while longer to catch on.
 
USB2 and such

As I understand it, the slowdown when a USB 1.x device is plugged into a USB 2 hub has long since been resolved. In other words, a USB 2 device will work at full transfer rate even if a USB 1.1 device is also plugged in.

However, USB does require an external proc. to work (i.e. camera -> computer -> t.v.) whereas a FireWire device requires none (i.e. camera -> t.v.).

(tig)
 
most people in the pc world don't know about fw because it isn't put into all of the machines. they aren't exposed to it, so when they hear, they think it's not as good because they don't have it. just putting that in there because that's what one of my friends thought.
 
Mixing USB2 and USB1.1 - no slowdown

Originally posted by The Grimace
As I understand it, the slowdown when a USB 1.x device is plugged into a USB 2 hub has long since been resolved. In other words, a USB 2 device will work at full transfer rate even if a USB 1.1 device is also plugged in.

Correct, USB 2.0 and USB 1.1 devices can be mixed on a hub, and the 1.1 devices do not slow the 2.0 devices.

I don't think that it's been "resolved" as much as early misinformation is being corrected. A number of early reports (some still popping up on the web) said that USB 2.0 was a 3-speed protocol, and that it stepped down for 1.1 devices. (USB 1.1 is 2-speed, 12 and 1.5Mbps).

In fact, USB 2.0 is 480Mbps only, the data from a 1.1 device is buffered and sent upstream in packets at 480Mbps by the USB 2.0 hub.
 
what's the big deal?

why are people so much after usb2? sure it's fast and everything, but after you'd have one, would you actually have much devices to connect to it? why wouldn't we rather use fw800 devices?!

sure it would add some compatibilty, but would we really benefit that much?
 
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
most people in the pc world don't know about fw because it isn't put into all of the machines. they aren't exposed to it, so when they hear, they think it's not as good because they don't have it. just putting that in there because that's what one of my friends thought.

Most people in the PC world don't care which is better.

USB was good enough for small slow peripherals, and USB2 is good enough for faster peripherals - disks, printers, scanners, digital cameras.

It's not as good as Firewire, granted, but it's included for free on all PC boards, in all new PC laptops, and in most new peripherals. 'Cheap' and 'good enough' are concepts that have driven the PC market to its current success.

Sure, Firewire is great where you need it - high speed disks, digital video, but due to its cost it WILL NEVER acheive the market penetration that USB2 will. Apple may think that they're fighting Firewire's corner by not including USB2 in macs - in reality this is just a disservice to Mac owners who will be left running the next generation of peripherals at only USB1.1 speeds.
 
Re: what's the big deal?

Originally posted by Windowlicker
why are people so much after usb2? sure it's fast and everything, but after you'd have one, would you actually have much devices to connect to it? why wouldn't we rather use fw800 devices?!

sure it would add some compatibilty, but would we really benefit that much?

A lot depends upon what devices you are interested in.

Nearly all of the new memory card readers, digital cameras and scanners are shipping with USB 2.0. I have heard that even color printers are starting to ship with the interface.

I do a lot of digital photography and no video work at all. For me, Firewire is pointless but USB 2.0 is a God-send. Transferring files from high speed CF cards to my computer over USB 2.0 is considerably faster than USB 1.1 and considerably cheaper than Firewire. Firewire 800 makes absolutely no sense for me.

I would expect that for someone who does video almost exclusively, the view would be just the opposite. USB 2.0 seems to have almost no penetration in that market and Firewire 800 would be great for external RAID arrays. I would rather use Ultra320 SCSI, but Firewire 800 seems to be cheaper.
 
why I want USB2

Once you're used to Firewire, USB can seem slow. I want to be able to use a USB2 consumer digicam (most are going that way) and USB2 'pendrives' (new, very affordable models support USB2) at the increased speeds.

I know these wont transfer data as fast as similar Firewire-equiped devices, but on the other hand, they do exist. (AFAIK there are no FW consumer digicams and few FW 'pendrives')

If sticking with USB1 IS costcutting by Apple, it is short-sighted. If it is NOT costcutting, then someone needs a reality check.
 
Originally posted by bennetsaysargh
unless you have a digital camera with a really large anount of high sized files, usb2 will not matter. some people barely know where to plug in things to the computer, let alone care how fast thier usb is. it won't make a difference like fw800 will, but fw800 will take a little while longer to catch on.

That's kind of a strange argument. Unless you have an external RAID array, Firewire 800 won't make a difference over Firewire. Only the very fastest IDE drives can reach Firewire speeds and then only under special circumstances. It seems like the same argument used to poo-poo USB 2.0 can easily be used to poo-poo Firewire 800.

Since USB 2.0 is basically free to the non-Mac community, it has considerably more return to the user than Firewire 800 does. It may only speed up the file transfer from CF cards or from a scanner by two or three times but it is virtually free. A USB 2.0 card reader is the same price as a USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 has been coming on new PCs for quite a while. Changing the interface on cameras and scanners to USB 2.0 from USB 1.1 did not seem to increase their price either.

In my mind that is where Apple screwed its customers. It has recently introduced new versions of its complete product line except for the iBook. Adding USB 2.0 to these would have been virtually free because of the chipset compatibility. Instead Apple chose to treat its customers like second-class citizens and choose not to embrace an industry standard. Apple ignoring USB 2.0 does nothing except hurt its own customers. It will not slow adoption in the least.
 
IEEE-134/a/b

Hello,

Just wanted to make some things clear about some research that Apple started in the late 80's to come up with an improved data transfer standard (over SCSI).

The reason it is called Firewire is because the connectors were observed to have 'thermal noise' during use.

Apple offered up Firewire to the IEEE standards body. They accepted it in 1995, giving it standard # 1394. That is why it is sometimes referred to as IEEE-1394 or as 1394-1995. This standard was capable of 100 Mbits/sec through put.

IEEE-1394a was an improvement to the standard and pushed the max datarate upto 400 Mbits/sec. IEEE-1394b (which was offered in 2001 and approved by 2002) raised not only the data rate, but offered some new cabling options.

1394b is backward compatible on original cabling (which makes it easy for hubs and adapters to go from the new cabling to the old with nothing other than a physical connector change). On new cabling, it allows for up to 800 Mbits/sec. On fibre cabling (ie, optical) it will go upto a maximum throughput of 3200Mbits/sec.

Due to these different cabling formats, and the speed, some networking magazines did speculative articles on how you could use 1394b (optical) as a backbone for a network.

This all went away when several companies showed 10gigabit ethernet products.

I prefer Firewire/1394 for anything that is moving any amount of data.

As the megapixels increase in camera's, going to firewire makes alot more sense.

Now, I have a wacked out opinion. Intel (and some others) pushed the idea of USB. It would be great for alot of low speed devices (keyboards, mice, etc). Intel had a VERY diffucult time pushing this. Most manufacturers were happy with PS2 (not the game consol).

Then, Apple included USB in all of their new macs. Alot of companies that made hardware for the Macs started making products. Some of these companies also made products for PCs, and so they started releasing PC versions. Do you think that it really upset the team at Intel that had worked so hard trying to get companies to accept this standard, got nothing be resistance, then along comes Apple, and witin 6 months, you have a wide range of USB devices?

There was originally talk of including 1394 into the Intel chipsets...never seemed to happen.

But, the biggest backing for 1394 is not computers, though that has helped with its success, but it was the camcorder industry picking 1394 as its way of transfering digital video around that really gave 1394 its biggest initial boost.

Add DV's wild success (even TV stations and movie producers are using them) to the need to have this, and it only made sense to make external harddrives, then CD/DVD burners, etc.

Hitachi if claimed it was going to include 1394 on all of its HD TV sets (I do not know if this ever came to pass). 1394 was even selected as the interconnect standard by the automotive industry.

It is a very robust standard, that didnt oversell itself on its capabilities. It said it could do 100 Mbits/sec, and it did very close (as they had already taken into account some of the overhead).

Anyway, that is my very long winded approach of trying to clear up what Firewire/1394 is.
 
USB2

Hello,

Why typing my long post, several others were made.

I view some of the arguements of 1394 vs USB2 the same way I see Ford vs Chevy (or any two car companies) arguement. Someone will like one, someone will like the other.

I agree that Apple should start including USB2 on the Macs, but I am not sure what the advantage would be.

Most USB2 devices I have seen are external harddrives, CD/DVD burners, and 1 scanner (which for the harddrives and CD/DVD burners, most are both 1394 and USB2. or they are offered in a 1394 version, which is already built into the current models). The rest say USB2 compatible, which means they are USB1.1 that does not block or hamper USB2 signal.

It is my opinion also that in the next year, Apple will be including USB2.
 
Why do I want USB 2? Because already many peripherals make use of it. When I was looking for scanners, there were many that use USB 2, but only 1.1 if used on a Mac. So there is a massive penalty speedwise. Yes, I could get a firewire scanner, but they cost more and the selection is limited. Yes, I could have bought a PCI card, but then OSX seems to have lots of issues with various PCI cards, I'd have to keep the drivers updated over time, and worry about lost stability. So give me USB 2. Jeez, it's not like by Apple not making it available it's slowing down the dominance of USB2. With 3% market share it makes no difference at all in the marketplace, and just makes apple seem irellevant. So a PC users with USB2 devices contemplates swtiching, sees that they can't use any of their USB2 peripherals, and they say forget it. It's just bad business sense and Apple needs to get with the program!
 
Re: USB 2.0 vs. FW Speeds

Originally posted by BaghdadBob


Sorry, but I suck with network ****, I can't even get my Jaguar system hooked up to my fiancee's XP system, and they're hooked up through a hub for DSL. I have to email her photos and graphics (LAME).

as far as i know, you would need a router to connect.
 
OK, I'll bite: what's the diff between MHz and Mhz?

There is no real difference, except that MHz is correct and Mhz is not. The proper abbreviation for Hertz is Hz, so a million of them would be M (mega) + Hz = MHz.

Chris
 
Firewire800 drive...with Art?

Hello,

Just for those who want Artistic accessories for their Mac:

www.all4dvd.com

Each drive will come with unique, original artwork.

Models include a protable, a desktop harddrive (in Firewire800), and a DVD burner.

I am not trying to advertise for them, just thought some here might be interested.
 
usb2 will become ubiquitous because it is being pushed on pc's by intel. and all of intel's technology is superior to everything else, as we all know. its just the cheaper solution not the best one a common problem with pc's.
 
Re: USB 2.0

Originally posted by jayscheuerle
Just get a card at CompUSA for $5.

here.

Interesting specs...

For MAC Users
Mac G3 required
OS 8.6 to 9.2 (USB 1.1 support only)
OS X 10.3 or greater (USB 2.0 support)
Available PCI slot


its says "x.0.3" not x.3.... but then at the bottom it says 10.3... odd... wonder which one is the typo
 
Re: USB 2 - things not mentioned

Originally posted by heal

- As far as I am aware, USB2 is only as fast as the slowest device plugged into it. Plug a usb?1? device such as a mouse inot the chain and the performance plumments to 12Mb ( 1 and a bit MBytes/s)

This is incorrect.

[Edit: Here's documentation that this is untrue ... note that the 2.0-only and 1.1/2.0 mix drive-read speeds are virtually identical, and that both are dramatically faster than USB 1.1-connected speeds

http://www.macopinion.com/columns/macskeptic/02/02/08/
]


While it is (of course) true that if you plug a 1.1 device into a 2.0 port it will only transmit as fast as USB 1.1, USB 2.0 hubs (which are required for plugging multiple devices into a single bus) can and should (according to the spec and to informal testing) allow 1.1-based devices and 2.0-based devices to be plugged in and operating simultaneously, without the 2.0 device being "slowed down" to 1.1 levels. In reality the 2.0 device will slow down slightly, but that is because some of its bandwidth is being used up by the 1.1 peripheral, and it will still operate much faster than USB 1.1 (39x faster instead of 40x faster).

The "problem" here is that devices that allow "chaining" (like the Mac keyboards and monitor) are really, at the system level, USB hubs. And, of course, all of them to date on the Mac side are USB 1.1 hubs. So, if you plug a USB 2.0 device into the "keyboard-mounted USB port" and the keyboard into the USB 2.0 port you've added to your Mac (either via this risky device driver fix or via a legit add-in PCI or PCMCIA card), your USB 2.0 device will be operating at 1.1 levels. Not because there is a USB 1.1 (more likely 1.0 ... USB 1.1 is really overkill for a keyboard) device on the "chain" (the keyboard), but because between your peripheral and the host controller there sits a USB 1.1 hub (inside the keyboard).

Of course, were Apple to ship USB 2.0-equipped Macs I'd strongly suspect that along with them they'd ship USB 2.0-hubbed keyboards and monitors to avoid the confusion, but you'd doubtless hear from people who plugged in their old keyboards/monitors and are shocked to see that their USB isn't any facter than before!

USB 2.0 has a lot of faults for some applications (mostly centered around its high CPU overhead and latency issues), but the degradation to USB 1.1 is actually quite well implemented.
 
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