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Is the use of AI okay in the MR photography threads?

  • No AI at all in any thread on the MR photography forums

    Votes: 35 43.8%
  • AI for enhancement only (canvas extension, generative fill for small areas)

    Votes: 31 38.8%
  • AI for larger areas of the canvas, but you started out with a base photo

    Votes: 4 5.0%
  • If AI is used, it must be disclosed at the time of posting

    Votes: 42 52.5%
  • AI on a case by case basis (please explain)

    Votes: 4 5.0%
  • AI okay for a sample photo if the photographer does not have something relevant in their archives

    Votes: 3 3.8%

  • Total voters
    80
Image cleanup or removal of unwanted objects, dragging an object and moving to a different location, generative fill, placing a subject in an entirely different background, altering the weather condition or time entirely different from when the actual condition or time the actual shot was taken, these are some scenarios that I think should be disclosed whether done with the help of artificial intelligence or any software.

In some cases where minor adjustments like brightness or saturation or vibrance, or any usual/traditional edits, should be fine/acceptable, and be left to the poster whether to disclose or not, but it would be helpful aside from the camera settings as to what minor adjustments were made to be disclosed.
You make some good insights that should be considered. I guess when you look at apps like Photoshop historically, whilst sometimes used to correct images, the term 'photoshopping', became ubiquitous to manipulating/correcting flaws in an image. In many ways, a precursor to what we now call AI.
 
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I was having a lively debate about this at work. My opinion is that AI editing is no different to Lightroom. As soon as you mess with a raw image in any way it is no longer the truth that was captured by the camera but a digital lie. Most 'great shots' on the internet were the result of a lucky spray-and-pray, heavy editing and some skill in composition.

A truly great photographer doesn't need to edit images; they made sure that the conditions were all perfect before they even pressed the shutter button and visualised it before they even touched the camera. I should caveat the hypocracy in this statement because I edit as much as the next person and far from a truly great photographer. But all of my best images are unedited, taken at the right time of day but these are few and far between.

EwtaQv9WUAIjLsA.jpeg.jpg

This image I took of a bubble just as it landed on some grass was both sheer luck and required some editing to bring out the sharpness.

2023-11-09.jpg


At the same time this image of the December snowfall was taken just after dawn and has been unedited. I took my camera out to purposefully capture the morning after a heavy blizzard in the local woodland. I got dozens of great shots that day and have never tweaked a single one.
 
I was having a lively debate about this at work. My opinion is that AI editing is no different to Lightroom. As soon as you mess with a raw image in any way it is no longer the truth that was captured by the camera but a digital lie. Most 'great shots' on the internet were the result of a lucky spray-and-pray, heavy editing and some skill in composition.

A truly great photographer doesn't need to edit images; they made sure that the conditions were all perfect before they even pressed the shutter button and visualised it before they even touched the camera. I should caveat the hypocracy in this statement because I edit as much as the next person and far from a truly great photographer. But all of my best images are unedited, taken at the right time of day but these are few and far between.

View attachment 2538883
This image I took of a bubble just as it landed on some grass was both sheer luck and required some editing to bring out the sharpness.

View attachment 2538885

At the same time this image of the December snowfall was taken just after dawn and has been unedited. I took my camera out to purposefully capture the morning after a heavy blizzard in the local woodland. I got dozens of great shots that day and have never tweaked a single one.
Two lovely shots. However these type of photos are unlikely to need heavy AI intervention. Now taking a shot at a very popular tourist attraction that isn’t open early or late, meaning you will have people in your shot or you have to clone them out.
Neither is right or wrong. Just depends on how it is presented.

But I agree as much as you can, the skill is getting it right in camera as far as possible.
 
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I'll just leave one of my favourite quotes here:

"Dodging and burning are steps to take care of mistakes God made in establishing tonal relationships."
Ansel Adams


As soon as you mess with a raw image in any way it is no longer the truth that was captured by the camera but a digital lie.
I will beg to differ, in the nicest possible way. Please do not take this personally, it is just a response to your emotive use of the terms Truth vs Lie and then I go rambling along as I tend to do. 🙂

What "truth" is being captured by the camera?
The F-stop influences our depth of field. Who has eyes that see like that?
So stright off the bat that little camera ain't telling s any kind of "truth".
Denoising and adjusting the colour grading is not being dishonest. If a particularly egregious power cable snakes across the sky, I will take it out.
But, I have to ask you, where is this big lie?
Was I not there? Does the scene not exist?

Black and White photos get a pass? My world is full colour… so B&W is one heck of a LIE.

Are all iPhone photos lies? You do realise the incredible amount of manipulation iOS puts our images through before we get "The Truth".

I do not think we should be confusing traditional post processing whether analogue or digital with AI image creation.

Some time ago on these forums there was a poster who was very happy with his shots straight out of the camera (I think the long time posters here will be reminded.) No amount of critique or debate could convince him that his genuinely dull snaps were well… just dull. Not just poorly composed, but utterly washed out and dreary.
But he was happy as Larry. So good for him and you would probably applaud his Truthfulness.

Do I want to take photos like that? Hell no.
Would I go and look at an exhibition of his work? Unlikely.

Photography is — to me — art.
Period.
I earn my daily crust as an artist. I do not use AI and I only turn to my computer to clean up the scans of the originals. Does that make me a dishonest artist?

With photography (from which I do not earn a living) I seek to recreate what I saw and not just what I was looking at.


I think we should distinguish between Post processing, editing and Ai manipulation.

Here is a pic I took — I didn't pay attention so it was underexposed.

Raw — The TRUTH (apparently)
P8010023 (1).jpeg



DXO PhotoLab (Still not a great pic, but… No AI) THE LIE (Apparently)
P8010023 (2).jpeg



ChatGPT (And this is what Adobe and Google and Apple et al are pushing on us.)
Now this image IS a LIE.
P8010023 (3).png


I know which image I am OK with and which image makes me throw up.
 
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A truly great photographer doesn't need to edit images; they made sure that the conditions were all perfect before they even pressed the shutter button and visualised it before they even touched the camera.
You know very well that not every scenario can have a perfect shot, kids, animals, plants, events, these can be planned but are challenging scenarios to get that perfect shot without having to edit a single thing.

Kids - they rarely stay in one place
Animals - they hunt for food specially the wild ones
Plants - windy or rainy weather
Events - social gathering or newsworthy photos
 
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Simple I consider AI generated images to be “artwork”, not “photography”.

There’s nothing wrong with AI images, clearly we’re on the cusp of them.
They can be lovely artwork.

But they are fake, not reality.

I’ve been taking Astrophotography images since 2009, literally 1,000’s of them. It was very clear to the forums that ”Astrophotography” kept the photons captured from the image sensor in their spacial position / relationship to each other and enhanced them via various techniques; PP, image stacking, using lens filters to block UV light, mounted on a equatorial rotating device, etc.

Moving objects was strictly a no-no, except the man made satellites that took away from the space objects; ie, plane trails, satellite streaks, etc.
 
You know very well that not every scenario can have a perfect shot, kids, animals, plants, events, these can be planned but are challenging scenarios to get that perfect shot without having to edit a single thing.

Kids - they rarely stay in one place
Animals - they hunt for food specially the wild ones
Plants - windy or rainy weather
Events - social gathering or newsworthy photos
And that is one of the reasons that I love film; it makes the notion of perfection - 'the perfect shot' - a lot harder to achieve, for it insists that the photographer actually think before pressing the shutter (precisely because film limits the number of shots you can actually take).

The nightmare of a world where photography is composed of perfectly curated shots, the notion where, what my eye falls upon is a curated visual lie, fills me with utter horror. I don't want perfection - I want an image to be an authentic expression of the eye of the person who created it.

Anyway, excellent thread, and a fascinating and thought-provoking discussion, and thank you, @mollyc for starting it, and @Clix Pix, for having suggested it.

Obviously, as with digital photography, (a format I have yet to graduate to - I still use film), AI will transform (transform utterly) how we see, shoot, (if we even shoot, or simply appropriate as needed), process, and present an image.

I am an historian by background, a training that has given me a respect for facts, sources, and what is (rather, what was), and also a tendency to look to a longer perspective; now, I have no quarrel with fiction or fantasy, but they do not purport to represent reality.

Thus, part of this unfolding discussion and debate of whether AI has a role in photography (alas, I think that this debate may already have been lost) and where we, in this forum seek to draw the line as to its use in image creation - a very necessary and timely discussion and debate - concerns whether it is deemed acceptable (in a world where tweaking images is already possible with digital photography), and to what extent - which is where I think that the real debate will (or is) taking place - it should be used when creating images.

In an earlier life, for a year, I worked with the parliamentary debates office as an editor; one of the things that was interesting about that was how the edited (and published) debates did not always reflect exactly what had taken place, what had been said, (sometimes, atrocious grammar was tidied up, as, if one actually had transcribed exactly what had been said, the contribution would have been completely incomprehensible, closer attention was paid to what the front bench - especially the government - may have said than was paid to the utterances of an anonymous backbencher, and - depending on context - errors may occasionally have been corrected prior to publication) and, internally, much discussion (and debate) occurred about how best to render what had been said into a published form, a form that rendered accurately what had been said in a manner that was comprehensible to a reader. I found it fascinating, and - as an historian - at times, a little troubling.

However, while the forum has already made its stance quite clear on AI generated posts (posts should be written by the person themselves in their own words), in the photography section, it makes sense to discuss the use of AI generally, and, more specifically, whether - or, to what extent - it should be allowed when participating in the many threads (weekly contests, POTD, and others), which is what this very welcome thread is doing.

Personally, I have no wish to live in a world where the visual fraud of AI generated images smothers any expression of creativity, and extinguishes authenticity of expression, and the need for the photographer's subjective eye.

My own personal preference would be for no AI whatsoever, - at least, in these fora - although I accept that this is, perhaps, excessively optimistic.
 
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I don't like it, but since day one of photography, man has enhanced and altered photos. It's more a question of method than principle. What is permissive, then? Well, in my view anything that nears actual realism, since photos often are imperfect representations of reality in different regards. Also, alterations that are self evident, i. e. B/W or sepia photos. Cloning and AI removal of objects are not, and will never be. AI pictures that resembles reality aren't photos at all, so they can't be discussed, in my view. A few thoughts. But, I realise my thoughts are irrelevant for the future; I'm mainly the past and only a tiny bit of the present.
 
I'm against the use of generative AI in photography, including things like canvas extension and generative fill.

I barely even use "classic" tools like cloning for such tasks. Except for literally two or three images, all photos I posted here or elsewhere, or most personal photos otherwise are only straightened, cropped, and corrected for luminance or colors.
 
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Is it really photgraphy when the computer generates the image?

I think its a slippery slope where AI is used for usual post production touch ups, to then adding a bit more definition, then to altering the images to convey a feeling, meaning, to eventually being almost completely generated.

What comes to my mind is the Ship of Theseus sort of thing - whether an object that has had all of its original components replaced remains the same object.
 
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