Valve's Portal 2 Confirmed for Mac

[jimmyjoemccrow]

I wasn't aware that there was a community built around console games. You can have a friends list, maybe even a website, but that requires that you have a PC too. That doesn't compare to being able to hire a server and create your own content.

In fact these gaming threads suggest to me that many Mac owners should really have bought a PC. The cases aren't as pretty but better performance can be achieved at much lower prices.

Even though my PC could run a tonne of stuff in the background I choose not to. You never know when one of those programs might decide to update, or do an autosave, and then your game might stutter. Music is just a distraction, as are IM programs. The resources of an anti virus program these days are usually next to nothing, and if you aren't gaming online, you can shut them off anyway.

 

[/dev/toaster]

I'm no expert in game porting, but as I understand it there is a difference between a game being ported over to a platform and a game engine being able to directly output code natively to that platform. As in currently, in a simplified sense, you can write a game using the Source Engine and related development tools and select to compile to either the PC or the XBox 360 as compile targets. I don't believe you can do that for the PS3. Sort of like how Steve Jobs was promoting the PPC to Intel transition as a bit of code modifying and simply clicking a x86 checkbox in XCode and you'd get a workable program. The Source Engine can do that between PC and XBox 360 but not PS3.

People were suggesting just because Portal 2 is available for Mac, it'd be logical/trivial to bring other Source Engine games to Mac. Yes, it would be a lot easier because most of the work can be reused. But the ultimate in cross-platform support to set the stage for future games is if the Source Engine can natively develop for OS X, so that in a simplified sense, the same game code in the development tools can be compiled to either PC, XBox 360, and OS X with a few settings. Platform specific optimizations would of course come later.

Further reading on those wikipedia pages suggest that the port of orange box over to the PS3 was a fork of the code base. The PS3 code wasn't merged back into the main source tree at Valve. They are now very different versions. There are so many different reasons why they could have went this direction.

The game engine (source) is basically a framework, a series of libraries. It does all of the very low level things like, loading maps, displaying models, rendering, networking, I/O, lighting, textures, etc etc etc.

The client code (or game code) is the actual game it self. The actual maps, textures, character models, the actual sounds, how the game is played etc etc. Episode 1, episode 2, portal, etc are different game clients using the same game engine.

If you wanted to port one of those games over to a new platform, you have to also port the underlying libraries. It just wouldn't work otherwise.

When Apple switched from PPC to Intel, it was FAR more complex then just clicking a button. From a very low level, PPC and x86 instruction sets are very different. Even simple things like telling the CPU to idle is different. (I am not 100% sure on this actual different, just using it as an example) IIRC, the PS3 is a PPC based CPU. (sorta)

I have heard a number of times that Apple had been maintaining an x86 version of the OS for a very long time, far longer then they suggest. Which is why they were able to release an x86 version so quickly. It totally makes sense, and doesn't take much for them to maintain it in the background.

When you compile a C application, its basically taking the source code and converting it into assembler for the target architecture. Universal binaries contain compiled code for both architectures.

The reason that you can port a game from Windows to Xbox easier is because they are both using very similar APIs. The Xbox is basically running a version of Windows. The PS3 is vastly different, just like the Wii is also much different.

I am by no means a game engine expert or anything. But I am a developer with a strong understanding of all the layers involved.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

PPC and Intel are very different, but the job was made easier by basing OSX on BSD.

 

[mixel]

I wasn't aware that there was a community built around console games. You can have a friends list, maybe even a website, but that requires that you have a PC too. That doesn't compare to being able to hire a server and create your own content.

Ummm.. I know a load of people who use their PS3 browsers, and a lot who've made content for LittleBigPlanet. You can use/make mods for the PS3 version of UT3 too. "it needs a pc too" is irrelevent in this day and age, everyone has an internet capable (certainly *forum/facebook/irc/etc* capable) machine of some sort, even if it's a phone. That's not an advantage of the PC as a gaming platform. How are multi-way chats, playstation home et al not communities?

In fact these gaming threads suggest to me that many Mac owners should really have bought a PC. The cases aren't as pretty but better performance can be achieved at much lower prices.

Even though my PC could run a tonne of stuff in the background I choose not to. You never know when one of those programs might decide to update, or do an autosave, and then your game might stutter. Music is just a distraction, as are IM programs. The resources of an anti virus program these days are usually next to nothing, and if you aren't gaming online, you can shut them off anyway.

I wouldn't run stuff in the background of all games, I want to be able to choose to leave whatever I feel like opened as necessary. Can't leave *anything* open if i have to switch OS.

The primary reason for buying my Macs was not gaming. The reason I got them specced so highly largely was though. I wouldn’t have been better off getting a PC as I'd have to get it AND a Mac if i was speccing a better gaming PC. Because I use, and enjoy, and make, mac software (and intend to make ipod/iphone software) I think there's a sizable market of amatuer/pro users who've bought powerful enough machines to game very well and will leap on the chance to do it natively. (without the windows licensing issues)

I've never had intrusive update or autosave on the Mac. I *do* know when they'll happen. Also I dont always mind a tiny stutter.. Not the end of the world much of the time. You seem to be treating all gaming as equal here.. Music most certainly isn't a distraction if done properly. Why is custom soundtracks such a loved feature in PS3 games and on the 360 if it's an inherently bad idea? Something like killing floor works well with a custom playlist too. And tbh how many long wargames would be unplayable with music? I have friends who sink so many hours into the Total War series, they hardly need clear 7.1 surround to know what's going on.

 

[commander.data]

Further reading on those wikipedia pages suggest that the port of orange box over to the PS3 was a fork of the code base. The PS3 code wasn't merged back into the main source tree at Valve. They are now very different versions. There are so many different reasons why they could have went this direction.

I think that is kind of the distinction I was wondering about. If the ported Mac version of the Source Engine in Portal 2 is a fork or otherwise distinct from the main Source Engine used for the PC and XBox 360, then it would be more involved to bring other Valve games to Mac.

When Apple switched from PPC to Intel, it was FAR more complex then just clicking a button. From a very low level, PPC and x86 instruction sets are very different. Even simple things like telling the CPU to idle is different. (I am not 100% sure on this actual different, just using it as an example) IIRC, the PS3 is a PPC based CPU. (sorta)

I have heard a number of times that Apple had been maintaining an x86 version of the OS for a very long time, far longer then they suggest. Which is why they were able to release an x86 version so quickly. It totally makes sense, and doesn't take much for them to maintain it in the background.

When you compile a C application, its basically taking the source code and converting it into assembler for the target architecture. Universal binaries contain compiled code for both architectures.

The reason that you can port a game from Windows to Xbox easier is because they are both using very similar APIs. The Xbox is basically running a version of Windows. The PS3 is vastly different, just like the Wii is also much different.

I am by no means a game engine expert or anything. But I am a developer with a strong understanding of all the layers involved.

I wasn't implying that Apple didn't put significant effort into making OS X support both PPC and x86, but pointing out that they tried to make it as seamless as possible for developers to use one source code and target both architectures. Similarly, in the Unity Engine/IDE, I believe you can design your game and have your source code compile between their web player, a Windows version, a PPC Mac version, and an Intel Mac version because the game engine is the same across all platforms. I'm hoping that Valve can achieve similar levels of cross-platform transparency in the Source Engine allowing them to target multiple platforms from the same source code, rather than having to maintain distinct Mac versions of every game as presumably they are doing for PS3 right now, since that would reduce the effort needed to support OS X in future games, making it more likely that Valve will bring more games to Mac.

 

[randyhudson]

I really don't get anyone here talking about this not being a great bit of news. It's like someone announced that their computer will be getting more functionality, and they're pissed.

Apple takes DRM out of music, GREAT!
But Valve adds DRM to games, so ..., GREAT!
Maybe if this really works out, we'll get Sony rootkits for OS X too!

Wake up, sheeple.

 

[commander.data]

If Apple announced that they were going to switch all music on the iTunes store back to DRM, would you be happy about that too? It's amazing that the same people that were happy about DRM going away for music can't wait to get DRM on their systems for games. Maybe if this really works out, we'll get Sony rootkits for OS X too!

Wake up, sheeple.

Do you mean that when Steam comes to Mac, every Mac game will automatically become Steam exclusive and include Steam DRM? Otherwise I'm not sure having another game distribution option should be considered a bad thing.

 

[mixel]

Steam's DRM is pretty much as good as drm could be anyway.

DRM is only a problem when it's in some way bad for usability or the consumer.. Steams DRM/system seems incredibly good for the consumer.

I don't mind anti piracy measures even if they only stop casual pirating, as long as they're done properly.

 

[tetravus]

Now that we will have the games,

Give us the Mid-tower Mac!!!!!

 

[Stridder44]

YES! Mac is (somewhat) of a gaming platform again!

 

[/dev/toaster]

I think that is kind of the distinction I was wondering about. If the ported Mac version of the Source Engine in Portal 2 is a fork or otherwise distinct from the main Source Engine used for the PC and XBox 360, then it would be more involved to bring other Valve games to Mac.

Since valve is doing it, I really doubt its going to be a fork. That just wouldn't make any sense.

 

[0098386]

Apple takes DRM out of music, GREAT!
But Valve adds DRM to games, so ..., GREAT!
Maybe if this really works out, we'll get Sony rootkits for OS X too!

Wake up, sheeple.

This is a completely different product. A song is linear product that can be played back on a variety of different platforms, is short in length and don't cost as much as games to produce. DRM is needed for games it's just a matter of how good it is for the consumer... and Steam's is very good. It can be played with or without an internet connection, has unlimited installs. In the 6 years I've been using Steam its DRM has never got in my way (can't say the same for SecuROM). All you do is log in and play. No rootkits or anything like that.

Wait......... no PS3?

The Orange Box was a bit of a disaster and since then no Valve game has made it to the system. L4D1 and 2 are only on the PC and Xbox (and probably soon Mac).

 

[brendon2020]

i can't believe my eyes

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

Ummm.. I know a load of people who use their PS3 browsers, and a lot who've made content for LittleBigPlanet. You can use/make mods for the PS3 version of UT3 too. "it needs a pc too" is irrelevent in this day and age, everyone has an internet capable (certainly *forum/facebook/irc/etc* capable) machine of some sort, even if it's a phone. That's not an advantage of the PC as a gaming platform. How are multi-way chats, playstation home et al not communities?


I wouldn't run stuff in the background of all games, I want to be able to choose to leave whatever I feel like opened as necessary. Can't leave *anything* open if i have to switch OS.

The primary reason for buying my Macs was not gaming. The reason I got them specced so highly largely was though. I wouldn’t have been better off getting a PC as I'd have to get it AND a Mac if i was speccing a better gaming PC. Because I use, and enjoy, and make, mac software (and intend to make ipod/iphone software) I think there's a sizable market of amatuer/pro users who've bought powerful enough machines to game very well and will leap on the chance to do it natively. (without the windows licensing issues)

I've never had intrusive update or autosave on the Mac. I *do* know when they'll happen. Also I dont always mind a tiny stutter.. Not the end of the world much of the time. You seem to be treating all gaming as equal here.. Music most certainly isn't a distraction if done properly. Why is custom soundtracks such a loved feature in PS3 games and on the 360 if it's an inherently bad idea? Something like killing floor works well with a custom playlist too. And tbh how many long wargames would be unplayable with music? I have friends who sink so many hours into the Total War series, they hardly need clear 7.1 surround to know what's going on.

I can suggest why custom soundtracks are a loved feature, because console gamers are not so bright. You can't listen to music and play a game at the same time and give them both your full attention. So the music becomes background noise, and then it doesn't really fit to the game, it just gives you more sensory stimulus so your brain thinks its having a better time. Its like music at a football match. It has nothing to do with the game, but people miss it if its not there, simply because they expect it. In fact this goes for music when you do your shopping, or like having the radio on in an office. Its a mild form of addiction.

 

[Fast Shadow]

I'm making a note, here: "HUGE SUCCESS."

 

[Nermal]

I'm making a note, here: "HUGE SUCCESS."

*cough*

 

[MorphingDragon]

The Orange Box was a bit of a disaster and since then no Valve game has made it to the system. L4D1 and 2 are only on the PC and Xbox (and probably soon Mac).

Thats what they get for being lazy and using a porting studio. The thing which I dont get the most is they could probably make more money doing proper ports for the PS3 than doing ports for Mac OSX.

 

[mixel]

I can suggest why custom soundtracks are a loved feature, because console gamers are not so bright. You can't listen to music and play a game at the same time and give them both your full attention. So the music becomes background noise, and then it doesn't really fit to the game, it just gives you more sensory stimulus so your brain thinks its having a better time. Its like music at a football match. It has nothing to do with the game, but people miss it if its not there, simply because they expect it. In fact this goes for music when you do your shopping, or like having the radio on in an office. Its a mild form of addiction.

Riiight. So, eg; Killing Floor has a load of droning, repetitive feux Nu-Metal that doesn’t react to the gameplay. UT music has always be hit and miss. Those are the default soundtracks. I assume you turn off in game music completely? I'm not suggesting listening to ABBA whilst playing BioShock.

A well picked piece of background music can help you chill out (if that’s what you're playing the game to do, which a lot of gamers are), or help you be in a "killing" mood, etc. I rarely do it but it's nice to have the option. I certainly don't miss music when it's not there.. But if I'm say, farming or grinding in a game, why not listen to music? Its no different to listening to music whilst doing anything else. I'm pretty sure different parts of the brain process this stuff. How much of your brain do you actually need to play WoW for the most part? The same atmospheric bg music cues after the millionth time, and 100s of hrs of silently sitting there clicking.. ?

The idea that console gamers "aren't bright" is hilariously insane.

 

[Friscohoya]

Apple is like a real computer company now with games and applications and stuff.

 

[omgwut]

I don't even know why there's someone in this thread comparing Apple DRM to Steam DRM, its freaking apples and oranges. Music is -- not always, but mostly -- a passive entertainment medium that we take with and listen to on an enormous variety of devices and platforms. Like someone said its very linear, we can just turn it on and jam out while we work or play or whatever. When digital rights management software is thrown in like a wrench it does positively nothing but create a huge headache for consumers.

I'm not necessarily a fan of DRM in computer games either but Steam is the absolute best it gets because it goes way above and beyond just telling you what you CANNOT do. It ties all your purchased games to a central user account and gives you Community services like news feeds, stats, achievements, leaderboards, matchmaking and online sever browsers, friendlists and chatrooms, discussion groups for users with common interests or favorite games, a robust customer support service, etc.

And how many times do you pick up Team Fortress 2 to play on your way to work? While you're at the gym? Do you put it on your iPod? No, you play it on the same computer you always do when you get home. There's no comparison. Valve doesn't put any arbitrary limits on how many different machines you can install their games to or how many times you can redownload them, pretty much the only limitation is being signed into the same account from only one computer at the same time which is not something that most humans should have trouble with.

I'm freaking thrilled about Valve bringing their catalogue to OSX, I think its not only going to be a great thing for more people to get a chance to play their awesome games but it could be a big trendsetter as far as pushing other developers and studios to make the jump with them as well. And there's probably no better digital distribution platform for indie devs to publish their games on right now.

 

[jimmyjoemccrow]

Riiight. So, eg; Killing Floor has a load of droning, repetitive feux Nu-Metal that doesn’t react to the gameplay. UT music has always be hit and miss. Those are the default soundtracks. I assume you turn off in game music completely? I'm not suggesting listening to ABBA whilst playing BioShock.

A well picked piece of background music can help you chill out (if that’s what you're playing the game to do, which a lot of gamers are), or help you be in a "killing" mood, etc. I rarely do it but it's nice to have the option. I certainly don't miss music when it's not there.. But if I'm say, farming or grinding in a game, why not listen to music? Its no different to listening to music whilst doing anything else. I'm pretty sure different parts of the brain process this stuff. How much of your brain do you actually need to play WoW for the most part? The same atmospheric bg music cues after the millionth time, and 100s of hrs of silently sitting there clicking.. ?

The idea that console gamers "aren't bright" is hilariously insane.

Yes I am saying that I turn off in-game music, listen to the sounds of the events. This is how our brains work, they expect sounds and events to be linked. And I am saying that it is no different to listening to music while doing anything else. It has been shown that offices are actually more productive when there is no radio in the background. Music can help people to relax and study, but only certain types of music like classical. The rest of the time people say that music helps them to concentrate is actually just like a smoker saying they need cigarrettes to help them relax. They get used to having that stimulus and then miss it when its gone.

Obviously this is not my soul argument for console gamers being dumb. I have tried to play with them. I'm sure you have too. They aren't the greatest for manners, or even a conversation that goes beyond the usual catchphrases. You know "Cry more!" "QQ!" That is a debate to them, that is their level of discussion.

 

[knightlie]

Apple takes DRM out of music, GREAT!
But Valve adds DRM to games, so ..., GREAT!
Maybe if this really works out, we'll get Sony rootkits for OS X too!

Wake up, sheeple.

DRM in Valve's games will encourage more developers to use it as a distribution platform - sales are likely to be higher because the products are more difficult to bootleg. Presumably you get your games illegally, or you want to distribute your games to others illegally, otherwise DRM in games wouldn't be a problem to you.

 

[mixel]

Yes I am saying that I turn off in-game music, listen to the sounds of the events. This is how our brains work, they expect sounds and events to be linked. And I am saying that it is no different to listening to music while doing anything else. It has been shown that offices are actually more productive when there is no radio in the background.

I was play Killing Floor to Beethoven last week, lol. I'd hate music in an office, I like having control over what I'm listening to. But, yeah.. Gaming is a bit different to work. Gaming is usually just for enjoyment. I'd not have music so loud as to obscure important sounds etc either. Anyway, its just nice to have as an option.

Obviously this is not my soul argument for console gamers being dumb. I have tried to play with them. I'm sure you have too. ...

I've found the average age is lower, and because of the lower level of entry (everyone online whether they've thought about it or not) its more, err.. Chaotic. I've spoken to and made friends with a lot of console gamers though, often in game. You are over-generalising a bit. I've met dumb gamers on the PC too - especially on TF2 and UT3. I got pretty sick of XBL abuse, other people see it as part of the game. Lots of muting people.

I hope little sub communities and clans crop up around Mac gaming once the games start flowing.

 

[madmax_2069]

The op states the orange box was only out for Xbox and PC, thats wrong your missing a system. It was out for Xbox, PC and PS3. or valve don't mention it because EA ported it to the PS3, and it was a horrid port at best and has never been supported. maybe valve is inbarist to even menton anything about it.

I am glad that the Mac is finally starting (again) to see the gaming side of the computer world.

 

[kurosov]

It has been shown that offices are actually more productive when there is no radio in the background. Music can help people to relax and study, but only certain types of music like classical. The rest of the time people say that music helps them to concentrate is actually just like a smoker saying they need cigarrettes to help them relax. They get used to having that stimulus and then miss it when its gone.

Yet music in a design studio has been proven to increase creativity and thus helps get the work done.

Wander how many of us fit that category here?