Ventura's the best update I've ever used. It's gonna be a big one y'all

[ponzicoinbro]

i have no idea what you mean. and not sure what 'normals' are, but the world is full of macusers who do professional work on their macs, or just surf the web and send email. 'everyone on the forum' is still less than 1% of the mac user base... and i stand by what i posted.

You can stand by your post all your life but you will never have admin as many Macs and Mac users as I have. I can 100% guarantee with Jupiterean levels of experience that 90% of Mac users don’t know Spaces exists (even when the accidentally trigger it), most don’t know anything about Mission Control hot corners, most don’t even know three finger Mission Control activation.

Most don’t even know command-tab. A basic OS feature that is around since 30 years and most still don’t use it.

Most still click on the Dock to multitask and they still move windows around to find the windows underneath. Drives me crazy when I see people do that at work and they all do it, so I stopped nagging them.

These kind of ancient behaviors are rooted in how people interact with real world objects. It‘a only a small group of users who are dedicated enough to learn all the features and gimmicks.

So Stage Manager…that is optional and not even nice to look at…with bad reactions on this forum….will be almost universally ignored because most users don’t even know…

…command-tab.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Does anyone WANT to use their iPhone as a webcam?? I have less than zero desire to do this, even if I used a desktop, with a Mac Pro, a Mackintosh, or what ever...This feature seems more like a gimmick than anything else.

I do. I would like to get into using a vtuber model and iPhones are the best at that.

 

[mikecwest]

Yes I do, I have a Mac Studio and a Dell display and some ****** Chinese webcam so it's a great option. If you don't like something doesn't mean the whole work thinks the same, that is the error most people make these days.

I don't think the whole world things the same, that is why I asked. I honestly thought that you could do that for the past few years.

 

[ponzicoinbro]

As someone who's only used macOS a year after a lifetime of Windows, I love Stage Manager so much.

😂😂🤣😝

Whizzzz bangggggg 3DDDDD

What’s this ugly thing that looks like a bad version of a Windows XP plug in. These ugly concepts are not new.

 

[mikecwest]

You can stand by your post all your life but you will never have admin as many Macs and Mac users as I have. I can 100% guarantee with Jupiterean levels of experience that 90% of Mac users don’t know Spaces exists (even when the accidentally trigger it), most don’t know anything about Mission Control hot corners, most don’t even know three finger Mission Control activation.

Most don’t even know command-tab. A basic OS feature that is around since 30 years and most still don’t use it.

Most still click on the Dock to multitask and they still move windows around to find the windows underneath. Drives me crazy when I see people do that at work and they all do it, so I stopped nagging them.

These kind of ancient behaviors are rooted in how people interact with real world objects. It‘a only a small group of users who are dedicated enough to learn all the features and gimmicks.

So Stage Manager…that is optional and not even nice to look at…with bad reactions on this forum….will be almost universally ignored because most users don’t even know…

…command-tab.

I agree with Fisherking, most of the people on this forum are more knowledgeable than the ones who are not on here. I have no way to calculate a number, but I believe his assessment of less than 1% of Mac users are on this forum. I would imagine that it is far less than "less than 1%"...maybe even less than 0.1%.

 

[mikecwest]

I do. I would like to get into using a vtuber model and iPhones are the best at that.

I dont even know what that is, but wouldn’t it be easier to buy and use a high quality webcam that has a little little stand?

 

[Populus]

Does anyone WANT to use their iPhone as a webcam?? I have less than zero desire to do this, even if I used a desktop, with a Mac Pro, a Mackintosh, or what ever...This feature seems more like a gimmick than anything else.

Is it possible to use this feature with a Mac mini? That would be… interesting.

 

[fisherking]

You can stand by your post all your life but you will never have admin as many Macs and Mac users as I have. I can 100% guarantee with Jupiterean levels of experience that 90% of Mac users don’t know Spaces exists (even when the accidentally trigger it), most don’t know anything about Mission Control hot corners, most don’t even know three finger Mission Control activation.

Most don’t even know command-tab. A basic OS feature that is around since 30 years and most still don’t use it.

Most still click on the Dock to multitask and they still move windows around to find the windows underneath. Drives me crazy when I see people do that at work and they all do it, so I stopped nagging them.

These kind of ancient behaviors are rooted in how people interact with real world objects. It‘a only a small group of users who are dedicated enough to learn all the features and gimmicks.

So Stage Manager…that is optional and not even nice to look at…with bad reactions on this forum….will be almost universally ignored because most users don’t even know…

…command-tab.

i did freelance mac support in nyc for over a decade... and i still wouldn't try to speak for 'most' macusers. i don't care how many macs you have access to., there are millions of macusers in the world, and not you, or anyone else, can speak for them.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

I dont even know what that is, but wouldn’t it be easier to buy and use a high quality webcam that has a little little stand?

No it isn't. The TrueDepth camera on the iPhone X and above has amazing face mocap that it's used professionally by many vtubers, most notably the biggest vtuber group Hololive.

Is it possible to use this feature with a Mac mini? That would be… interesting.

Yes you can. Any macOS Ventura Mac can use an iPhone as a webcam.

 

[Populus]

Yes you can. Any macOS Ventura Mac can use an iPhone as a webcam.

Thank you Scaphandre.

You know, despite being on beta, it is a relief that you say it is noticeably more fluid and snappy than Monterey. It is weird tho, because Monterey didn’t have many new features, so my logic tells me this new OS, Ventura, with so many new and big features, should be more problematic than Monterey… But anyways, it is a good sign, it means the macOS team have been working really hard on Ventura.

 

[ponzicoinbro]

i did freelance mac support in nyc for over a decade... and i still wouldn't try to speak for 'most' macusers. i don't care how many macs you have access to., there are millions of macusers in the world, and not you, or anyone else, can speak for them.

I have seen all of them. Five continents, 8 capital cities, so many concentrated areas, businesses, hotels where the Mac users live. The pattern is always the same.

Yes you can get a result from having a survey from large sample groups without needing to see “miLLionS of UsErs”

 

[fisherking]

I have seen all of them. Five continents, 8 capital cities, so many concentrated areas, businesses, hotels where the Mac users live. The pattern is always the same.

Yes you can get a result from having a survey from large sample groups without needing to see “miLLionS of UsErs”

impressive that you, one person, can make an observation concerning millions of people, based on your singular interaction with... what; a hundred people? a thousand?

i'll stick with real-world facts, and, where those don't exist, educated guesses and opinions (which are of course, just guesses and opinions).

 

[ponzicoinbro]

I agree with Fisherking, most of the people on this forum are more knowledgeable than the ones who are not on here. I have no way to calculate a number, but I believe his assessment of less than 1% of Mac users are on this forum. I would imagine that it is far less than "less than 1%"...maybe even less than 0.1%.

Ya

That’s what I said. This type of forum has the most knowledgable dedicated users.

So when they say they don’t like something then the reaction should be well noted.

When Exposé was first shown there was universal positive reactions.

This Stage Manager thing that looks like bad Windows XP plugins that existed is getting bad reactions.

Look, it’s really simple. It’s not even a debate. If most normal Mac users out there dont even know what is hot corners then they wont even use this Stage Manager. On the iPad there might be more take up.

 

[ponzicoinbro]

impressive that you, one person, can make an observation concerning millions of people, based on your singular interaction with... what; a hundred people? a thousand?

Probably circa 5000.

All very notable type of users in high profile locations and businesses. That’s a strong survey sample size. It’s bigger than most political and social surveys we see in the news.

I’m also an over the shoulder peeper. Whenever I see anyone using Macs I peep over their shoulder and study how they use it. I’m not looking at their data. I just want to know what OS they are using and if they are using new features.

You know…

…most Mac installed user base might not even be able to upgrade to Ventura anyway.

So that’s that.

 

[gpat]

The OP argued about Ventura fixing most under-the-hood bugs, that's enough to make me happy.
It was much needed since macOS stability went down the crapper in the last years based on my experience.
If they're actively working on it, that'll be enough for me to call Ventura the best update in a while.

As for the rest, Stage Manager looks like a Vista feature, yeah, we're not obliged to use it like most OS features.
The newest feature from macOS that I find legitimately useful is Mission Control, debuted with Lion in 2011 if I'm not mistaken.
I don't even own an iOS device so I missed on all the ecosystem stuff, but Continuity Camera actually looks like a killer feature.
The OS works fine even if you use it purely as a sublayer for your apps. Go figure.

 

[Spaceboi Scaphandre]

Thank you Scaphandre.

You know, despite being on beta, it is a relief that you say it is noticeably more fluid and snappy than Monterey. It is weird tho, because Monterey didn’t have many new features, so my logic tells me this new OS, Ventura, with so many new and big features, should be more problematic than Monterey.

2021 in general was just a bad year for Apple software updates in general. Everything was broken. iOS 15 had touch screen issues, the Safari redesign was so bad they had to revert it, Unlock with Apple Watch was broken, Monterey bricked several Macbook Airs, the 14/16 inch Macbook Pros had speaker popping issues that only recently finally got fixed, and so many more issues. And of course several features were delayed at launch. iOS 15 was supposed to have ProRes support for the iPhone 13 Pro but that didn't arrive until a month after launch, and Monterey didn't even get Universal Control until FIVE MONTHS AFTER LAUNCH when it was originally supposed to launch in November.

So what happened? Why was 2021 such a disaster for updates but 2020 wasn't? If I had to guess: I don't think Apple's programmers adjusted to work from home. Big Sur and the other 2020 updates didn't have anywhere near the amount of issues Monterey had since they already did most of the hard work before COVID hit. Monterey was built fully during COVID and good god it shows. Testing of the OS was a lot harder remote, which is probably one of the reasons Apple is so hellbent to get their programmers back into Apple Park.

Well fortunately it seems Ventura won't suffer the same problem and they learned from their mistakes.

 

[fisherking]

So when they say they don’t like something then the reaction should be well noted.

Probably circa 5000.

All very notable type of users in high profile locations and businesses. That’s a strong survey sample size. It’s bigger than most political and social surveys we see in the news.

I’m also an over the shoulder peeper. Whenever I see anyone using Macs I peep over their shoulder and study how they use it. I’m not looking at their data. I just want to know what OS they are using and if they are using new features.

You know…

…most Mac installed user base might not even be able to upgrade to Ventura anyway.

So that’s that.

that's hysterical. you're still one person, altho... impressive that you've worked on 5000 macs, and spy on the macs of people you don't know. how many millions of macusers are there? and what percentage do your observations cover? 🤔

but i'll just accept your opinions as all that matters. who needs real facts anyway?

 

[ponzicoinbro]

that's hysterical. you're still one person, altho... impressive that you've worked on 5000 macs,

Man you can’t read or what. I have been admin’s at least 5000 over my working lifetime and at college.

The same thing I said also applies to Windows. Most Windows users still use Taskbar for multitasking and are unaware or don’t care about the equivalent of Mission Control on that OS. Even there many users don’t know they can alt-tab.

That’s just the way users are. They will use the method that is most direct and user facing.

Another very obvious example you can check with your eyes right now is on youtube.

Search for coding courses, any software courses, and watch the videos. The teachers are almost never using features like Mission Control etc to multi task between apps. There are many thousands of such online teachers posting videos so don’t pretend they don’t exist.

You lost this internet debate. You should not have even tried to win it.

Only a small dedicated minority of users go into every new multi tasking feature and even a tiny tiny tiny number of them will use Stage Manager especially because it is so ugly and janky and almost nobody here likes it.

 

[beatrixwillius]

Ventura is better than BS but worse than Monterey. BS was the worst beta ever. Ventura has those nice little embarrassing bugs:

I can't empty my trash.
Creating PDF previews doesn't work anymore.
Some dialogs are messed up.
Pasting in Messages didn't work for a time.
There was a really weird redraw bug in my app.

The new System Settings are terrible.

 

[fisherking]

Man you can’t read or what. I have been admin’s at least 5000 over my working lifetime and at college.

The same thing I said also applies to Windows. Most Windows users still use Taskbar for multitasking and are unaware or don’t care about the equivalent of Mission Control on that OS. Even there many users don’t know they can alt-tab.

That’s just the way users are. They will use the method that is most direct and user facing.

Another very obvious example you can check with your eyes right now is on youtube.

Search for coding courses, any software courses, and watch the videos. The teachers are almost never using features like Mission Control etc to multi task between apps. There are many thousands of such online teachers posting videos so don’t pretend they don’t exist.

You lost this internet debate. You should not have even tried to win it.

Only a small dedicated minority of users go into every new multi tasking feature and even a tiny tiny tiny number of them will use Stage Manager especially because it is so ugly and janky and almost nobody here likes it.

i haven't lost anything, this isn't a contest. if you believe that your personal experience defines the larger mac (or computer) base... believe away.

i am more about facts than observations. but you're free to believe what you want... including that you 'won' a 'debate'.

 

[Stefdar]

Ventura is better than BS but worse than Monterey. BS was the worst beta ever. Ventura has those nice little embarrassing bugs:

I can't empty my trash.
Creating PDF previews doesn't work anymore.
Some dialogs are messed up.
Pasting in Messages didn't work for a time.
There was a really weird redraw bug in my app.

The new System Settings are terrible.

None of these problems except your question for System Settings in another thread exists for me...

 

[fisherking]

Ventura is better than BS but worse than Monterey. BS was the worst beta ever. Ventura has those nice little embarrassing bugs:

I can't empty my trash.
Creating PDF previews doesn't work anymore.
Some dialogs are messed up.
Pasting in Messages didn't work for a time.
There was a really weird redraw bug in my app.

The new System Settings are terrible.

something's up for you. here, i can empty trash, create pdfs; have not (yet encountered) dialog issues. and give system settings time, you'll adapt. we've had the same previous preferences window for millenia..

 

[Blue Quark]

Guess I'm a little late to this party. Honestly, I thought someone had just made this name up, so I google'd it all prepared to have a laugh, but lo and behold, it's a legit thing.

The first thing I saw on the list which might be of interest was Stage Manager, mostly because I'm curious what Apple's thinking is on software launchers or management of installed programs, or whatever.

I cut my teeth on Classic Mac OS, back when if you wanted to open a program you navigated to it and double-clicked the application itself. Aliases would be the better part of a decade away, originally introduced with System 7.

Beyond that, they've now changed System Settings to look like the macOS version of the Gnome 3.x Control Panel (which of course is also similar to how Microsoft's done this in Windows 10 and 11). I guess that's cool and all, but not anything to get me excited.

 

[beatrixwillius]

something's up for you. here, i can empty trash, create pdfs; have not (yet encountered) dialog issues. and give system settings time, you'll adapt. we've had the same previous preferences window for millenia..

I'm always blessed with making good bugs.

The dialog bug is easy to reproduce:

Make a new file for TextEdit.
Type some text.
Convert the file to text only.
Type Cmd-S to save the file.
Set the cursor behind the .txt
Press the delete key.
Instead of having "untitled.tx" there is now "Untitled.tx.txt".

The PDF preview issue is more serious. Creating PDFs works fine. For my app I need to render the first page of PDFs to PNG. It doesn't work anymore in code. And the fallback solution - the sips terminal command - gives an error.

 

[fisherking]

I'm always blessed with making good bugs.

The dialog bug is easy to reproduce:

Make a new file for TextEdit.
Type some text.
Convert the file to text only.
Type Cmd-S to save the file.
Set the cursor behind the .txt
Press the delete key.
Instead of having "untitled.tx" there is now "Untitled.tx.txt".

The PDF preview issue is more serious. Creating PDFs works fine. For my app I need to render the first page of PDFs to PNG. It doesn't work anymore in code. And the fallback solution - the sips terminal command - gives an error.

just tried the text thing. do you mean 'convert to plain text'? when i saved the file (desktop), and went to remove the last t, i got a pop-up asking me if i'm sure i want to change 'txt' to 'tx'... and it worked fine.

are you not getting the pop-up?