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Originally posted by alandail
two good reasons not to go with XServes for this project

1 - the G5 XServe is not out yet
2 - when these machines are replaced, they can be resold to students and/or professors as desktop machines.

Regarding 1.:

The will be out within a reasonable timeframe.

Regarding 2.:

Get real. Before a university/government institution is allowed to sell any kind of hardware to anyone some years go by or the things die so badly its not worth repairing the thing. The newest Macs my university for example is allowed to sell at the moment are 7xxx series.

As for use anywhere else. You can bet that these machines will be stripped off anything not useful in a cluster node (unless they wen't totally bonkers when they placed the order). So they will have either a Rage 128 Graphics Card or none, same with optical drive, none or CD-ROM, I would even bet none for both and they do network installs and an absolute minimal HD (since a cluster node doesn't need much HD space). So if they want to ever use them outside the cluster they would have to upgrade them with new Graphics Card, Optical Drive and HD.
Cheers,

Ahmed
 
Originally posted by shadowfax
i think he probably knew this, and you are just being a semantic jerk. he was saying that they are just selling those series of macs. do you know the plural of series? it's series. it's also a generic term that can be used to refer to a line of products... i don't see why you fried him like that, other than to try to impress us with your knowledge of gimpy apple products from x years ago. that'll be a neiner. i knew the point he was making, and you did too--that his university can only sell really old apple computers. so please, don't correct spelling and minor word confusions.

lol, that was great
 
Originally posted by alandail
also, 1100 machines isn't going to cause much of a delay on over 100k orders - it might bump everyone back a few hours.

Exactly what I thought! So everybody who is pissed about the delay caused by an order 1100 G5s shouldn't have slept in school when the teacher explained multiplication... This is less than the througput of one day, so what's the big deal?

groovebuster
 
Originally posted by Phil Of Mac
I don't know what your problem is, Shadowfax, but jumping to conclusions and flaming me without knowing better is no better than what you accused me of.

You are so wrong... you started it and he just put it into perspective. For me it also was unnecessary how you corrected that series issue. And to claim that it was for the "uninformed folks" who are new to the platform is a bit weak. If they are new to the platform, they probably couldn't care less about the details you tried to brag with, because it is very unlikely that they will ever be in the situation to work with a machine like this.

Oh... and BTW... your explanation was wrong anyway... The so called 7xxx cases were also sold in November 1997 as the first generation of G3s... Ooops! You don't have to thank me for correcting you. I just thought you didn't know this... you must be new to the platform! ;)

groovebuster
 
Originally posted by wiljo
I seem to recall a govt sponsored research project in distributed OS technology at CMU back in the '80s. It was called Mach. You know, basic abstraction of memory, process and communication in a micro-kernel, on which one could host an os personality such as BSD. Oh yeah, it was led by this guy named Avi Tevanian. Who moved this tech to a company named NeXT, who moved to a company named Apple...

Cheers

Hrmm...

Alternately, it was lead by Rick Rashid, who now heads up MS Research. He appears as principal author on most of the papers, anyhow... Somehow I don't think I will convince any of you. :) (nor that Mach was about extensibility rather than distribution)
 
How about if we retreat from personal attacks on our fellow members and turn our animosity back to where it rightfully belongs.. at those goddamn hokies! Where do they get off? ;)
 
Originally posted by shadowfax
i am not trying to make a flame war. i jumped on you, quite harshly, for correcting someone for something minute and pathetic. you proceeded to correct him--with a correction that wasn't really even valid--and lecture us about the details of some macs that were not mentioned in the interest of detail but rather example. i think this is rude. i am not alone in thinking such. to defend your actions, you turned the accusations back upon me multiple times, and fell behind the "oh, i was just trying to enlighten everyone" guise which is quite common among people who fail at attempting to do what you did.

All right. I've deleted the posts in question, and I'm sorry.
 
Re: Idiotic descision on Virginia Tech's part IMHO.

Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Completely dumb. The G5 Xserve Upgrade is only 2 months away (max) and price wise the Xserve Cluster node is less expensive than a dual CPU client.

Ahmed,

How do you know the G5 Xserve upgrade is only 2 months away?

My guess is that you are speculating/wishing that this will happen. We could see another PowerBook situation...and wait and wait...

Anyhow, there might be another reason that they went with the G5 and that it had to do with funding and fiscal year expenditures. October 1st is fastly approaching.

Sushi
 
Re: keep studying

Originally posted by AidenShaw
Your wish for 128-bit won't be needed while any of us are alive - but I'm sure that the starships' Enterprise computers are more than 64-bit. It's silly.

Yeah, and 640K is enough for anyone! LOL!

No one knows the future direction of computers.

Today I have more RAM in my desktop computer than I had HD space ten years ago!

There are so many things that are changing the computer landscape and pushing the need for increased computing power. Will we reach a point where this stops? I doubt it.

Who knows, maybe we will see 128 bit computing sooner than anyone expects it. :D

Sushi
 
Re: Doubt it....

Originally posted by AidenShaw
That's not a 64-bit application. For proof - AltiVec has been manipulating 128-bit chunks of data, but nobody calls the G4 a 128-bit system. G3/G4 and Pentium chips have 64-bit floating point, but nobody calls them 64-bit computers.

It's the width of the address pointer that matters, not the width of the largest datum.

The Integer registers are almost always used for address manipulation, therefore the width of the integer registers is always a limiting factor in the amount of addressable memory.

So when people say a 64bit chip = a chip with 64bit integers, they're pretty much saying it's a chip with 64 bit addressing.

Mike.
 
Re: Re: Doubt it....

Originally posted by whooleytoo
So when people say a 64bit chip = a chip with 64bit integers, they're pretty much saying it's a chip with 64 bit addressing.

True that (almost all) chips with 64-bit addressing also have 64-bit integers, converse is not true.

And, when Apple ships an operating system that uses 32-bits of those registers for addressing, it's shipping a 32-bit system (running on a 64-bit CPU).

To be precise - a programmer using a 64-bit system should be able see the value "8" when he runs a native program that does:

printf ("%d\n",sizeof(void *));

If he sees "4", then it's a 32-bit system - regardless of the addressing capability of the actual chips.
 
Re: Re: keep studying

Originally posted by sushi
Yeah, and 640K is enough for anyone! LOL!

No one knows the future direction of computers.

Fair enough.... Also, nothing requires that the next jump has to be another doubling of the address width - 80-bit or 96-bit addressing might be the way to go.



Originally posted by sushi
Today I have more RAM in my desktop computer than I had HD space ten years ago!

:) ... and the VRAM in my graphics card is more than the HD space in my first 486 - and I opted for the big 110MB disk!
 
Re: Re: Re: keep studying

Originally posted by AidenShaw
:) ... and the VRAM in my graphics card is more than the HD space in my first 486 - and I opted for the big 110MB disk!

Heh, heh! :)

The L2 cache in my new G5 (512k) is 128 times the amount of RAM I had in my first computer!

e.
 
Re: Re: Re: Doubt it....

Originally posted by AidenShaw
True that (almost all) chips with 64-bit addressing also have 64-bit integers, converse is not true.

Out of (genuine) curiosity, do you know a machine with 64 bit ints that doesn't support 64bit addressing?

(Talking about the hardware limitations only - since it's perfectly possible to build a 64bit machine and put an OS on it that only supports 16 or even 8 bit addressing!)

Mike.
 
Originally posted by AhmedFaisal
Regarding 1.:

The will be out within a reasonable timeframe.

Regarding 2.:

Get real. Before a university/government institution is allowed to sell any kind of hardware to anyone some years go by or the things die so badly its not worth repairing the thing. The newest Macs my university for example is allowed to sell at the moment are 7xxx series.

As for use anywhere else. You can bet that these machines will be stripped off anything not useful in a cluster node (unless they wen't totally bonkers when they placed the order). So they will have either a Rage 128 Graphics Card or none, same with optical drive, none or CD-ROM, I would even bet none for both and they do network installs and an absolute minimal HD (since a cluster node doesn't need much HD space). So if they want to ever use them outside the cluster they would have to upgrade them with new Graphics Card, Optical Drive and HD.
Cheers,

Ahmed

1 - clearly not soon enough to make the top 5 list this year, which was a criteria - not to make Apple look good, but to make Virginia Tech look good.

2 - suppose they already plan to replace the cluster with dual 3 GHz machines next fall so they will still be top 5. They very likely are getting machines with a minimum of a 160 gig hard drive, a CD-RW drive, and a Radeon 9600 Pro. Apple doesn't sell G5's without these 3. If the intent is to upgrade the cluster each year it makes a lot more sense to order desktops than XServes because of the resale to student value.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Doubt it....

Originally posted by whooleytoo
Out of (genuine) curiosity, do you know a machine with 64 bit ints that doesn't support 64bit addressing?

P4Logo.jpg


The SSE2 SIMD unit supports 64-bit integers - even the Microsoft Visual C++ compiler will generate SSE2 64-bit integer instructions if told to. (http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...core/html/vclrfArchMinimumCPUArchitecture.asp)


There are enough oddball chips and features that one can often be nailed with a counter-example if one says something is always, or never or similar absolute terms.

If you fuzz it with an "almost" or a similar "wiggle-word", you can describe the common, commercially successful architectures without getting in trouble.

But, I agree with you that most microprocessors use the same ALU and registers for addressing and integer arithmetic, and therefore max integer size and virtual address are the same.
 
One of the posts with first or second hand information said VT went to Dell and HP with a deadline and they could not meet it. Apple could. This seems like a rational explanation to me, as school does start on a date specific and whatever taks the farm is being built for, is obviously for students to work with to some degree.

I initially assumed the farm would be disparate desktops linked by a network. I was wrong about that. They are putting these CPU's in a rack or series of racks as it turns out, possibly to reduce latency issues.

I suppose students could log onto particular CPU's remotely :)

What is NOT confusing to me aout this is:

1. G5 2x2 desktop CPU's are here today, not later.

2. Even if an x-serve G5 were to be released in say only 3 months, the school year would be 1/3 over by then and the release would likely have some other cripple due to temperature or density or some such and for a cluster, not offer a whole lot more functionality. I think we can assume an Apple sales rep actually gave them a realistic alternative timeframe if not specific details of the coming x-serve before this purchase decsion was made.

3. There are reasons to believe an Apple purchase was potentially a better short term choice for purely performance reasons. The speed specs are better than most current wintel alternatives, and at less electrical and temperature concerns, which were clearly large budget items for this cluster farm.

4. Once the software is written and compiled for G5 and to some extent for altivec, Apple and IBM (IBM adds tremendous credibility and lowers purchase risk) have clearly shown a roadmap to significantly faster and more capable broadband CPU's in the IMMEDIATE future, something no wintel processor can even begin to do.

5. Thus the processor vendor has legs, is more immediately available, uses less support resources, is likely as fast or faster, and offers lower purchase risk. Am I actually talking about Apple Computer, Inc here?

What's wrong with this picture? Apple stock up again today.

Rocketman
 
Why not wait on Xserves???

The info from the Virginia Tech posts states that there was a VERY SHORT timeline to get this going.

If Apple told VT to wait for the Xserve G5 to come out doesn't anyone else see that HP or Dell (or SOMEONE) could have filled the order before the Xserve G5's release?

(And before someone says "but the G5 is faster" -- that's irrelevant when you can just add more than 1100 to the cluster to attain the same speed. There are no Apple computer products on the top 500 yet. There ARE some Pentiums and Athlons, etc.)
 
Originally posted by Rocketman
They are putting these CPU's in a rack or series of racks as it turns out, possibly to reduce latency issues.
...
The speed specs are better than most current wintel alternatives, and at less electrical and temperature concerns, which were clearly large budget items for this cluster farm.

The interconnect is InfiniBand, a high bandwidth (up to 10Gbps and more) low latency computer room solution.

As to power/performance - the Intel blade systems (such as IBM BladeCenter http://www-1.ibm.com/servers/eserver/bladecenter/ or HP ProLiant Blades http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/platforms/index-bl.html) have a very good power ratio - and support up to dual 3.06GHz Xeons in a 1/2 U effective space (14 dual CPU blades in a 7U chassis).

The PPC970 isn't too far from the Xeon for power consumption, close enough that the power used in the chassis is important.

If the VT application is AltiVec-friendly, then the G5s might be the better choice. Your other arguments, however, are not as strong.

And the Power Mac is a poor choice for space efficiency - you could get 84 to 168 3.06 GHz Xeons in a standard rack - compared to only 12 PPC970s.

Not only is space expensive, but high-speed low-latency interconnects often have rather limited lengths (InfiniBand over copper quotes 16 meters). "Server sprawl" can be a problem ;)
 
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